1316 réponses à ce sujet

[Darkannex]

IanPolaris wrote...

Darkannex wrote...

The Architect wants the broodmother dead.

Sure, because she is messing up his plan.  The architect (if you read the Calling) is inhuman but can be very persuasive and charming.  However just because he wants to kill the Mother does NOT mean he is your friend.

Read "The Calling".

-Polaris

0,o Im arguing from the same side you are. And I have read it. I've cited it more than once in my argument. My point was that because Vol was citing Cullen/Zathrian etc as being self interested...but failed to mention that so was the Architect. Also, the motivations of the messanger are unknown. It's futile to speculate on them. What we do know is that if he lives-he spreads the taint. Knowingly and more than once. 

[Volourn]

"In the context of Hespith's rhyme, violated almost always means rape. We have no reason to think otherwise."



Sure we do. Everyone assumes that darkspawn don't procreate the 'normal way'. The question then becomes why not? They have no sexual organs, no sexual desire, they don't think in the same emoptional way as we do so it's doubtful they'd use rape as punishment or simply cause pain.



Violated can be so many things. Afterall, a human woman being turned into a darkspawn will most assuredly feel violated - and, heck, might even react to it as if it were rape - hence the poem.



My point the assumptyion that is actual rape as we view it is not neccessaily so. A violation to be sure but that doesn't mean forced intercourse. btw, That's what rape is - forced sexual intercourse - which as far as we know, the DS don't have.





"BTW, you don't need sexual desire to engage in rape."



True which is why I brouight up the fact that the darkspawn (the old kind) don't really have the capacity to use rape as a tool of power.They don't in the same way we do.





"The Darkspawn KILL HUMANITY BY SIMPLE PROXIMITY!"



No, they don't. Your entire party in O and even in A pre ritual, cna stand near them and be full of their blood and neer be tainted.



Plus, as evidenced by the Awakening AND the existence of TA, the darkspawn are evolving. Perhaps, this has to do with the fact that there are only 2-3 Blights left.



Perhaps, the darkspawn will be freed once the last archdemon is defeated. Who knows.

[Maedryc]

IanPolaris wrote...

Maedryc wrote...

Those are pretty different situations and you know it. With both Branka and Zathrian, you basically have to choose who lives, specifically it's either the crazy chick who slaughtered her entire house or the redeemed golem who doesn't want anymore soul-stealing, and either the hate consumed elf or the innocent guys that have been turned into werewolves due to what their ancestors did.
Whatever you do, someone dies.
If you spare the architect, nobody dies.
Apples and oranges.

Not at all.  If you spare the Architect you are condoning his plans and his experiences, and we already know the Architect is directly responsible for both Mother and the last blight....so all that blood is directly on the Architect's hands AND making a species that fundamentally views yours as PREY "Reeks of Stupid" to quote Sigrun.

You are in fact choosing who lives or dies in the long term:  If you side with the Architect you are choosing to let the Darkspawn enslave/kill humanity in the long run.  Period.

-Polaris

I meant that nobody dies in the game.
Furthermore, it's not like the wardens haven't been known to make compromises to stop a blight.
And sure, he might kill more people, or he might not. That's a risk you face everytime you let someone live. If he succeeds, however, the blights might end.
In addition, you're assuming that the Darkspawn will still want to reproduce once they'll be an intelligent race, and that's not a given, aside from the fact that whether you like that or not, the darkspawn are already out there. 
I'm sorry, there's no "period" here, it's just how you see it, and there's an awful lot of baseless assumptions there: I might as well say that "a mindless race of predators that will surely see humanity as prey is far more dangerous than an intelligent race that might or might not see humanity as prey, since we don't know a whole lot about an intelligent Darkspawn's priorities" and add a cool "period" at the end of the statement and that would be as much a valid point as yours (which means that's pretty much baseless), because the truth is that there's nothing in the game that supports one theory over the other.

Modifié par Maedryc, 28 mars 2010 - 07:52 .

[Darkannex]

Vol- you are mistaking game mechanics for proof. There is a difference. The taint does destroy by proximity. The fact that your character and party do not turn into Ghouls is a neccessary game thing.



Also-one aberration does not prove evolution. The awakening is something imposed externally-it is not an evolution of a species.

[M-Taylor]

Volourn wrote...

"It's in Hespith's rhyme. "Eighth day, we hated as she is violated." I suppose it could technically mean something else but 'violated' is pretty much accepted as meanig 'rape.'"

Violated can mean many things. Again, can the darkspawn even actually literally rape anyone? Do they have sex organs? Do they have sexual desires? Can they intellectually use rape as a mean of showing their dominance?

It's illogical to assume that 'violated' emans 100% rape since it doesn't make sense. If had the capiocty to rape non darkspawn it would likely mean they were capable of sexual intercourse.

Much more logical to believe that being 'violated' is the very act of being turned into a broodmother as assuredly the process is painful, and disgusting and is the very defintion of being violated.

You seem to be under the impression that you need intelligence to rape.

The Darkspawn, in Origins atleast, seem to be more akin to animals. Animals do not have intercorse for funsies. They do it to reproduce. It would be much more logical in my opinion to compare Darkspawn to Animals, rather to humanity.

And you keep using the argument that they may or may not have sexual organs. You cannot know that for sure, so it's speculation. In the context of the rhyme, it seems to indicate that the dwarf females were being raped.

The Darkspawn, however, probably do not think of it as rape. They think, like animals do, that it's needed to reproduce.

Just my theroy, anyway.

[Volourn]

"Also-one aberration does not prove evolution. The awakening is something imposed externally-it is not an evolution of a species."

True. But as the saying goes, where there is one ther eis many.

Annyways, does the Calling cover how TA came to be?


"Vol- you are mistaking game mechanics for proof. There is a difference. The taint does destroy by proximity. The fact that your character and party do not turn into Ghouls is a neccessary game thing. "

Maybe; but there are plenty of non joinables who are near darkspawn that don't go ghoul. Legion of the Dead is an example. Branka as well. She was definitely crazy but it didn't have to do with darkspawn but her obessession with golems. Heck, the entirety of Orzammar is right ontop of the Darkspawn Hoemland so why haven't the majority of dwarves living there been tainted?



Poem: The poem refers to being violated. Like I said, obviously the process is a violation hence the poem. Everyone seems to equate that with rape when it's illogical to do so. No doubt a dwarf woman (like the O broodmother) see the transformation as a violation rape or not.
 Someone who has their house robbed feels raped. Assault victims (those who get beat up) feel violated even if they aren't actually raped.
 
Rape, like I said, is forced sexual intercourse and I just don't see that happening with the pre awakened darkspawn.
Darkspawn don't work with animals because animals recreate by intercourse and have 'sexual urges' and all thats ******. And, they certainly don't use rape just to show they're more powerful 9well.. then aagin, I'm sure some knowledgable that could probably point out a few species that to).
 
P.S. What a disgusting topic...<>

Modifié par Volourn, 28 mars 2010 - 07:55 .

[IanPolaris]

All living things want to survive and want to reproduce, intelligent or not. It's necessarily hardwired. There is no indication the darkspawn are any different in that regard. As for "rape" in the context of what happens to Hespith and her clan, I think it's very clear that the Darkspawn DO rape would-be broodmothers as a matter of course (and it doesn't take sapience to engage in rape as others have already stated).



As for the taint, we see over and over again both in DAO and DAA that the Darkspawn taint IS spread by simple proximity (your party is a necessary exception in gameplay in DAO). In fact the IMMUNITY to this casual taint is what makes Grey Wardens special. It's why the Kennel Master in DAO wanted you (and not him...even though he is an expert animal handler) to muzzel the sick Mabari. Why? HE had to worry about getting a fatal disease. YOU as a Grey Warden (or soon to be) only had to worry about toothmarks.



The evidence is very clear. The only way Darkspawn can coexist with humanity is either:



1) The Darkspawn become exinct.



2) The Darkspawn kill/enslave humanity (for breeding stock like cattle).



In either case, killin the architect is simple species self defense.



-Polaris

[Big Mikey Mike]

tmelange wrote...

So just curious--who spared the Architect and why?

Personally, I didn't think it was a rational option under any circumstances for humanity to come to any sort of accord with the darkspawn or the Architect.

I spared him every time - I didn't actually realise you could fight him, it seemed so natural to side with him.  Think of it this way; the Grey Wardens do whatever they can to stop the blights.  They don't care about the Darkspawn existing, so much as they care about stopping them killing people.  The Architect arguably represents the best hope we have of preventing blights from ever happening again.  If ever there was a distasteful decision to be made that benefitted Fereldon and the rest of the world, it's siding with the Architect.

[Darkannex]

Vol - http://dragonage.wik.../wiki/Darkspawn

It explains the Taint there. Areas they conquer become corrupted. The wildlife does as well. So do the people.

[Layn]

the taint probably isn't as effective and instantaneous as it seems. After all, normal soldiers were sent along with grey wardens to fight Darkspawn. No one ever told Cailan "don't fight at the frontlines, because you will get tainted". The empress of Orlais was willing to send their own soldiers to fight darkspawn

and whats better? awaken darkspawn bit by bit and try to become friendly with those that are willing to and kill those that are hostile, or wait till every blight is over and all darkspawn probably awaken at the same time?

btw. how old is the architect? when did he learn about blights and the end result of blights?

Modifié par Crrash, 28 mars 2010 - 08:03 .

[IanPolaris]

Volourn wrote...

Maybe; but there are plenty of non joinables who are near darkspawn that don't go ghoul. Legion of the Dead is an example. Branka as well. She was definitely crazy but it didn't have to do with darkspawn but her obessession with golems. Heck, the entirety of Orzammar is right ontop of the Darkspawn Hoemland so why haven't the majority of dwarves living there been tainted?

The Legion of the Dead have a lifespan (from what I gather) that typcially measures in weeks or even days.  Sigrun specifically says that imminent death is an omnipresent feature of being in the LoD.  As for Branka, your guess is as good as mine.  Best guess....she isolated herself somehow KNOWING what she was putting her clan through.  In any event, you can not make an argument based on the exceptions.  No disease ever has a 100% transmission and fatality rate.  However, the taint is close enough to wipe out humanity.

-Polaris

[Volourn]

I go by in game experience not by some silly wiki. I know how it should work but it doesn't always work that way in game.Or else the entire Dark Roads sans Orzammar proper would be completely corrupted.


"No disease ever has a 100% transmission and fatality rate. "
True, true. This is why in real, life we use those who are immune to disease to find a way to create a way to immunize rest of the population from said disease.
 
Also, this is how humanity beats many onmce deadly diseases, by our bodies addempting. Are you claiming that eventually, the taint won't be as deadly towards humans as ourn bodies find a way to combat it? Hmmm... Anoher reason not to mass slaughter awakened darkspawn espicially an unique one like TA who awoke 'naturally'.

Modifié par Volourn, 28 mars 2010 - 08:01 .

[IanPolaris]

Big Mikey Mike wrote...

I spared him every time - I didn't actually realise you could fight him, it seemed so natural to side with him.  Think of it this way; the Grey Wardens do whatever they can to stop the blights.  They don't care about the Darkspawn existing, so much as they care about stopping them killing people.  The Architect arguably represents the best hope we have of preventing blights from ever happening again.  If ever there was a distasteful decision to be made that benefitted Fereldon and the rest of the world, it's siding with the Architect.

You think that making a species that fundamentally is antogonistic to humanity, uses the females of humanity to breed in about the most vile way possible, and spreads a disease by simple proximity that is almost always fatal and then making them SMARTER and thus better as KILLING you is the best thing for Fereldan?

I think NOT.

-Polaris

[Addai]

Volourn wrote...

I go by in game experience not by some silly wiki. I know how it should work but it doesn't always work that way in game.Or else the entire Dark Roads sans Orzammar proper would be completely corrupted.

Then go by the evidence you see in the game- the very walls of the Deep Roads are infested with darkspawn taint where they live.  Or what do you think all those globules of slime are?  Interior decorating?

[IanPolaris]

Volourn wrote...

I go by in game experience not by some silly wiki. I know how it should work but it doesn't always work that way in game.Or else the entire Dark Roads sans Orzammar proper would be completely corrupted.

The dark roads sans Orzammar and Kal Shirok ARE almost completely corrupted by the blight.

As for the game, the game itself tells you plenty about the taint and it is just as bad as I have been saying.  You just fall back on game 'experience' when it suits your argument and ignore it when it doesn't.

-Polaris

[Darkannex]

The silly Wiki is created by in game knowledge.

[Maedryc]

IanPolaris wrote...

All living things want to survive and want to reproduce, intelligent or not. It's necessarily hardwired. There is no indication the darkspawn are any different in that regard. As for "rape" in the context of what happens to Hespith and her clan, I think it's very clear that the Darkspawn DO rape would-be broodmothers as a matter of course (and it doesn't take sapience to engage in rape as others have already stated).

The darkspawn are an artificial race. From what we know, they can't even reproduce without a human/dwarven/elf woman to corrupt. I don't know of any real-world race that I could compare to the Darkspawn. So, assuming that once an artificial race will acquire what's a patently unintended self consciousness they'll retain the will to reproduce is quite a leap.

The evidence is very clear. The only way Darkspawn can coexist with humanity is either:

1) The Darkspawn become exinct.

2) The Darkspawn kill/enslave humanity (for breeding stock like cattle).

In either case, killin the architect is simple species self defense.

-Polaris

You're conveniently forgetting:

3) They live in secluded isolation. 
Which is what most dalish elves and dwarves do anyway, so it's not like it's something so impossible to achieve that it shouldn't even be considered.

Modifié par Maedryc, 28 mars 2010 - 08:10 .

[Thor Rand Al]

Volourn wrote...

People keep talking about the past and the mindless darkspawn actions are proof they cna't be trusted. That's silly. DS like TA, The Withered, and the Messenger are not like other DS so they should be treated differently.

Free the darkspawn to fre ourselves!

P.S. Grey Wardens have the knack for doing the easy thing the shortcut way all the time. It's why they target criminals and murderers to force them to join them. It's why they have no problem using torture, blood magic (and, no, I don't think all BM is evil), and a host of easy copouts. GW arenot inherently moral creatures.

Wait are you using the Withered, that creature who threw that guy over the wall as an example of why we should treat them differently? Why we should let them survive?  He came right out and said lets not kill more than we have too.  If the Architects plans was for peace it's obvious the Withered's were not.   In fact he's the perfect reason why we shouldn't let the Architect continue with his "Joinings". 




What actually have we seen in the game as far as the good that the Architect has done.  1 creature and that was the Messenger out of how many did we have to fight?  The Mother and her goons, the Withered, the children etc etc.  Yes I put the children in there because if the Architect wouldn't of freed and altered her she wouldn't of produced those creatures.  Thats a partial negative of what he's done and I say partial because we haven't seen everything.  What did we see that was positive?  The Messenger, ya but that still had a consequence there, he infected those he tried to help.

[Volourn]

"Wait are you using the Withered, that creature who threw that guy over the wall as an example of why we should treat them differently? Why we should let them survive? He came right out and said lets not kill more than we have too. If the Architects plans was for peace it's obvious the Withered's were not. In fact he's the perfect reason why we shouldn't let the Architect continue with his "Joinings". "



You miss the point. It's not about The Whithered being a good guy. He isn't. He's a villain who needs to be stopped even if that means his death. I had no conpunction when it came to killing him because he was a threat.



I still treat him as an individual. Just a villainous one. Like Howe. The Whithered is a perfect illustrauon on why we should allow The Awakening because he is an individual who has the right to choose. His choice was wrong so he faces the consequences. Like Howe.

[master-fluff]

Volourn, you seem to be suggesting that darkspawn reproduce asexually, ie. you say female hostages aren't raped.  If that were the case, why the need for a broodmother at all ?   Wouldn't the darkspawn just bud/fragment and all be clones ?

I think there's enough in-game evidence to suggest they reproduce along the line of honey bees (queen bee = broodmother, darkspawn = worker bees).  But I'm fascinated what your theory is on how they reproduce.  

Darkspawn biology 101

[Big Mikey Mike]

IanPolaris wrote...

You think that making a species that fundamentally is antogonistic to humanity, uses the females of humanity to breed in about the most vile way possible, and spreads a disease by simple proximity that is almost always fatal and then making them SMARTER and thus better as KILLING you is the best thing for Fereldan?

I think NOT.

-Polaris

As a Grey Warden I am only concerned with stopping blights.  They only rise up and rampage across the world when an old god compels them to do so.  Granting them intelligence is a risk I'm willing to take to stop further blights happening.  I can live with a civilisation that happens to be antagonistic towards me a lot more than an incessant horde marching across the world.

[Sarah1281]

If had the capiocty to rape non darkspawn it would likely mean they were capable of sexual intercourse.

I don't see why they wouldn't be. The reason they need broodmothers is because there aren't any female darkspawn.

In addition, you're assuming that the Darkspawn will still want to reproduce once they'll be an intelligent race, and that's not a given, aside from the fact that whether you like that or not, the darkspawn are already out there.

So you think it's more likely the darkspawn will just stand back and watch their race die out because their way of reproducing isn't good for other species that want them dead? Artificial race or not, they're not going to want to destroy themselves.

In addition, you're assuming that the Darkspawn will still want to reproduce once they'll be an intelligent race, and that's not a given, aside from the fact that whether you like that or not, the darkspawn are already out there.

Okay, say you stop the Blights. Is your job as a Grey Warden over and you and everyone else can retire? No. Now you need to deal with the darkspawn.

[Addai]

Big Mikey Mike wrote...
As a Grey Warden I am only concerned with stopping blights.  They only rise up and rampage across the world when an old god compels them to do so.  Granting them intelligence is a risk I'm willing to take to stop further blights happening.  I can live with a civilisation that happens to be antagonistic towards me a lot more than an incessant horde marching across the world.

Darkspawn attack whether there is a Blight or not.  Just ask the dwarves.  Recall that many people don't even believe that Ferelden is experiencing a Blight, because darkspawn raids are not unknown.  The difference with a Blight is that there is an intelligent being at the head, organizing them.  So... you spare an intelligent darkspawn leader.  Congratulations, you've just aided the darkspawn to not even need an archdemon to accomplish the ravaging of humanity.

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

And remember: Since Duncan was actually around during The Calling what happened then isn't metagaming for him.

Yes, and if Duncan were there to advise your PC, he could tell you that the Architect's seeming benevolence and "helpfulness" is a deception.

If you want to call Duncan back from the dead to support your POV, be careful what you wish for!

Modifié par Addai67, 28 mars 2010 - 08:54 .

[The Illusive Paragon]

Well there is always the elven mage from the calling, unless shes dead too.

Modifié par The Illusive Paragon, 28 mars 2010 - 09:01 .