1316 réponses à ce sujet

[Thor Rand Al]

Volourn wrote...

"Wait are you using the Withered, that creature who threw that guy over the wall as an example of why we should treat them differently? Why we should let them survive? He came right out and said lets not kill more than we have too. If the Architects plans was for peace it's obvious the Withered's were not. In fact he's the perfect reason why we shouldn't let the Architect continue with his "Joinings". "

You miss the point. It's not about The Whithered being a good guy. He isn't. He's a villain who needs to be stopped even if that means his death. I had no conpunction when it came to killing him because he was a threat.

I still treat him as an individual. Just a villainous one. Like Howe. The Whithered is a perfect illustrauon on why we should allow The Awakening because he is an individual who has the right to choose. His choice was wrong so he faces the consequences. Like Howe.

Ugh, there's a MAJOR difference here between darkspawn and all the other individuals we've had to deal with from both games.  These darkspawn are not individuals, they are not human, never where human and never will be human.  Even the werewolves use to be human and if you choose to end the curse they become human again.


Just because the Awakened darkspawn can talk, just because they don't hear the Old God's song doesn't change anything about them.  They are still going to need to reproduce, they are still going to need to eat, they still spread the taint. 

Reproducing : How are they going to reproduce, through broodmother's.  Even if they could magically have sex why would they do it that way when a broodmother can produce at least hundred's if not thousand's with 1 hatching.

Eating:  They eat flesh, whether it's their own or ours that's what they eat and where are they going to get it from? Either from their own and I seriously doubt their going to let themselves be eaten especially now that they've become "Awakened".  So the next place that's got an all-you-can-eat is the surface.  So they come up to the surface kill, pillage, corrupt everything and everyone. 

And who's to say that once their up and they see all this livestock (humans) they aren't going to want to stay up.  Now that the Architect has taken away their need to go back to the Deep Roads, by taking away the need to search for the Old Gods why would they go back down.  They have no need, that compulsion to.  That song, that call was need for them and our protection from them.

[Costin_Razvan]

Darkspawn attack whether there is a Blight or not. Just ask the dwarves. Recall that many people don't even believe that Ferelden is experiencing a Blight, because darkspawn raids are not unknown

They fight the dwarves but not the surface. I suggest taking your own advice and asking the dwarves, namely the dwarf soldiers just outside Redcliff Castle in Origins. They say that people are acting like the Darkspawn appeared out of thin air, and that they are blind.



Darkspawn raids are minor, so minor most people take the Darkspawn and Blights as legends and myths, not reality. This fact is presented in both Dragon Age novel.

So... you spare an intelligent darkspawn leader. Congratulations, you've just aided the darkspawn to not even need an archdemon to accomplish the ravaging of humanity.

There is a difference between a hive mind and individual intelligence. If anything we should know that while individual intelligence will make a race stronger and far dangerous it will also make that race understand the values of ethics.



Humanity itself would be a prime example of that.We have the capability to wipe out every animal species on this planet, yet we do not? Why is that?

[Addai]

The Illusive Paragon wrote...

Well there is always the elven mage from the calling, unless shes dead too.

Indeed, and she was called to Weisshaupt specifically to search for the Architect.  It would make sense to bring her or at least someone from Weisshaupt in now that the Architect has actually shown himself again.

Besides which, she and Alistair need to meet so we can finally put that whole thing to rest one way or another. 

[The Illusive Paragon]

Addai67 wrote...

The Illusive Paragon wrote...

Well there is always the elven mage from the calling, unless shes dead too.

Indeed, and she was called to Weisshaupt specifically to search for the Architect.  It would make sense to bring her or at least someone from Weisshaupt in now that the Architect has actually shown himself again.

Besides which, she and Alistair need to meet so we can finally put that whole thing to rest one way or another. 

I was actually quite suprised she wasn't involved in Awakening.

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

They fight the dwarves but not the surface. I suggest taking your own advice and asking the dwarves, namely the dwarf soldiers just outside Redcliff Castle in Origins. They say that people are acting like the Darkspawn appeared out of thin air, and that they are blind.

They do attack the surface.  Numerous NPCs tell you that they think this is only a large darkspawn raid.  Those raids are obviously not unheard of.

Darkspawn raids are minor, so minor most people take the Darkspawn and Blights as legends and myths, not reality. This fact is presented in both Dragon Age novel.

In the time of the novels and the game, they have largely withdrawn from the surface, but there is a reason for that- they are assembling and preparing for a Blight.

There is a difference between a hive mind and individual intelligence. If anything we should know that while individual intelligence will make a race stronger and far dangerous it will also make that race understand the values of ethics.

Humanity itself would be a prime example of that.We have the capability to wipe out every animal species on this planet, yet we do not? Why is that?

We do try to eradicate those which are incompatible with human life.  If you could remove the AIDS or ebola virus from the planet, would you not do it out of some misguided notion of "genocide"?

[Maedryc]

Sarah1281 wrote...

In addition, you're assuming that the Darkspawn will still want to reproduce once they'll be an intelligent race, and that's not a given, aside from the fact that whether you like that or not, the darkspawn are already out there.

So you think it's more likely the darkspawn will just stand back and watch their race die out because their way of reproducing isn't good for other species that want them dead? Artificial race or not, they're not going to want to destroy themselves.

Says who? While humanity is steadily growing in numbers IRL, there are several countries where the population is decreasing rather than increasing. We're discussing an alien race here, and yet you're dismissing the only similarity between the "new" Darkspawn and humans: they're an intelligent race, and intelligence implies a measure of control over one's instincts.

In addition, you're assuming that the Darkspawn will still want to reproduce once they'll be an intelligent race, and that's not a given, aside from the fact that whether you like that or not, the darkspawn are already out there.

Okay, say you stop the Blights. Is your job as a Grey Warden over and you and everyone else can retire? No. Now you need to deal with the darkspawn.

Your job is to stop the blights. As soon as the Darkspawn are no longer a threat to humanity, your job is over. Sure, you can keep the order, but the GW are only needed to kill the archdemon: any  soldier with a sword can kill darkspawn.
In addition, you have to fight the darkspawn now. The worst that could happen is that you'd have to keep on with the whole darkspawn killing thing.
The best that could happen is that the now intelligent darkspawn decide that killing humans until some human gets smart and kills them isn't such a great show of the aforementioned intelligence and doesn't grant a long life either.

Modifié par Maedryc, 28 mars 2010 - 09:16 .

[Big Mikey Mike]

Addai67 wrote...

Darkspawn attack whether there is a Blight or not.  Just ask the dwarves.  Recall that many people don't even believe that Ferelden is experiencing a Blight, because darkspawn raids are not unknown.  The difference with a Blight is that there is an intelligent being at the head, organizing them.  So... you spare an intelligent darkspawn leader.  Congratulations, you've just aided the darkspawn to not even need an archdemon to accomplish the ravaging of humanity.

But even those attacks were not caused by intelligent darkspawn, and pale in comparison to blights.  The few intelligent talking darkspawn we have met have seemed little different from humans in their approach, with some being openly hostile (The First, The Lost), and others being willing the negotiate on behalf of their superiors (the messenger you encounter at Amaranthine whose name I forget).  I'm not saying that the only possible choice is to side with the Architecht.  I'm just saying that the choice does make as much sense as choosing to kill him.  And this is borne out by the relevant epilogue when you both free the messenger and side with the Architect.  My characters have all thought it was a risk they were willing to take, even my cold-hearted Orlesian dwarf saw the potential.

And if the darkspawn come again, under the war banner of the Architect, then so be it.  We have fought off intelligent darkspawn once, we can do it again.

Thor Rand Al wrote...

Eating:  They eat flesh, whether it's their own or ours that's what they eat and where are they going to get it from? Either from their own and I seriously doubt their going to let themselves be eaten especially now that they've become "Awakened".  So the next place that's got an all-you-can-eat is the surface.  So they come up to the surface kill, pillage, corrupt everything and everyone.

Animals?  We can teach them to raise cattle.  It's not like humans don't eat flesh themselves, you know.

Modifié par Big Mikey Mike, 28 mars 2010 - 09:22 .

[Thor Rand Al]

Despite the bug's and things in Awakening's Bioware outdid themselves yet again with an excellent game. This thread is proof. Moral delima of allowing the Architect to continue or not and what that could mean for the future of Thedas. I could almost see them reading these threads thinking yep we've hooked them again lmao

[Addai]

Big Mikey Mike wrote...
And this is borne out by the relevant epilogue when you both free the messenger and side with the Architect.

The epilogue is really irrelevant.  We do not know why the darkspawn are quiet.  It could be a retreat, or the quiet before the storm.

And if the darkspawn come again, under the war banner of the Architect, then so be it.  We have fought off intelligent darkspawn once, we can do it again.

The difference being that you will have aided them to do it, effectively siding and cooperating with a creature as dangerous as an archdemon or moreso. 

Of course, the same thing might be said of anyone who did the Dark Ritual, so there are no heroes unless you're an Orlesian warden who had nothing to do with either.

Animals?  We can teach them to raise cattle.  It's not like humans don't eat flesh themselves, you know.

They need corrupted humanoid flesh as part of the Broodmother creation process, not just for regular food.

[Layn]

Big Mikey Mike wrote...

And if the darkspawn come again, under the war banner of the Architect, then so be it.  We have fought off intelligent darkspawn once, we can do it again.

ah, but these were only few disciples, and a smaller darkspawn army. The Architect gathered the few he had to get more grey warden blood and experiment and possibly talk with the grey wardens. Mother gathered her own little group and scrambled to stop the architect and you.
if the awakened should band together later on to attack the surface it would be more difficult. The advantage that the wardens have is that everyone is prepared for such an occasion

[AndreaDraco]

@ Vilnii: yet Utha and Seranni are alive and well.



In The Calling the Architect proposes a way to solve the problem of the taint of humanity's end (putting all people through the Joining). This is clearly a utopy, but I strongly believe that a way can be found. In the 80s, people with HIV were marginalized for fear of their 'taint', and yet today gigantic steps have been made to ensure that the disease is controlled, at least in the civilized nations. I'm obviously not comparing the two, but this example serves me to say: once darkspawn have been freed, if they want to mix with the human population, we can find a way to make it feasible. Through magic, through science -- the Architect seems already confident that he can protect his adepts from dying from the taint. We can work from this and find a more permanent solution.

[Layn]

AndreaDraco wrote...

@ Vilnii: yet Utha and Seranni are alive and well.

i wouldn't exactly say "well". but they are alive and seem to be ok with what happened to them (for whatever reason)

[Thor Rand Al]

Big Mikey Mike wrote...

Thor Rand Al wrote...

Eating:  They eat flesh, whether it's their own or ours that's what they eat and where are they going to get it from? Either from their own and I seriously doubt their going to let themselves be eaten especially now that they've become "Awakened".  So the next place that's got an all-you-can-eat is the surface.  So they come up to the surface kill, pillage, corrupt everything and everyone.

Animals?  We can teach them to raise cattle.  It's not like humans don't eat flesh themselves, you know.

Um ok but do you honestly realistically believe that.  Are you the 1 that's going to teach these creatures how to cultivate.  Also slight problem, their taint, they'll kill the animals before they can even raise them.  They can't farm, their taint will kill the plants before they could harvest them.  Unless they stay away from the animals and plants and the only way that's going to happen is if they get outside help and who in their rightmind are going to want to help DS willingly?  So that means they have to have slaves and where are they going to get that.  That means they've got to go up to the surface and kidnap some people but wait that doesn't work either because of the taint.
Sweet lets teach them everything that human's know, how to sew, how to farm, how to build, lets teach them our lifestyle so they can use it against us.  Perfect real life example since a lot of people are using r/l as an example.  9/11.  We're the dip****s that taught those guys how to fly and they turned around and used it against us.  Yes real smart move there, lets just give them more amunition to use against us. 
Why not bring the DS into our war councils since your so willing to put the lives of Theadas at risk.  And then when they do decide to backstab you you can sit there and say but but I thought we were friends.  Funny thing though, they won't need to fight us, because we've allowed them into our lives were already dead or corrupted because of their taint.  Looks like the Architect's original plan worked after all.



You know yes letting them go about their lives without the Old God's calling to them seems like a good idea but that can NEVER happen as long as they have that taint.  Everything they are around gets corrupted.   I will not put the lives of Thedas in danger just because of the Architect and his plans.  Everything I've seen so far doesn't bode well for Thedas.  Nope sorry dead.  Get rid of the taint then I might consider it but as long as thats around nope no reconsidering.  I will not risk destroying Thedas.

[Layn]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

Um ok but do you honestly realistically believe that.  Are you the 1 that's going to teach these creatures how to cultivate.  Also slight problem, their taint, they'll kill the animals before they can even raise them.  They can't farm, their taint will kill the plants before they could harvest them.

we do it for them, and we get .... dunno, something, from them.

Thor Rand Al wrote...
I will not put the lives of Thedas in danger just because of the Architect and his plans. 

alright. it's not like we think you are doing something wrong and are forcing you to help the architect

[Thor Rand Al]

Crrash wrote...

Thor Rand Al wrote...

Um ok but do you honestly realistically believe that.  Are you the 1 that's going to teach these creatures how to cultivate.  Also slight problem, their taint, they'll kill the animals before they can even raise them.  They can't farm, their taint will kill the plants before they could harvest them.

we do it for them, and we get .... dunno, something, from them.

Thor Rand Al wrote...
I will not put the lives of Thedas in danger just because of the Architect and his plans. 

alright. it's not like we think you are doing something wrong and are forcing you to help the architect

Lmao I know I got a little excited there and I apologize if anything I said offended anyone.  I was just commenting on why I didn't let the Architect live.

[Sarah1281]

Says who? While humanity is steadily growing in numbers IRL, there are several countries where the population is decreasing rather than increasing. We're discussing an alien race here, and yet you're dismissing the only similarity between the "new" Darkspawn and humans: they're an intelligent race, and intelligence implies a measure of control over one's instincts.

Some governments limit the number of children people can have and some people take measures to limit how many children they have if they have any at all. Maybe the darkspawn numbers will even go down (which I doubt since a few broodmothers can produce dozens if not hundreds or thousands of darkspawn each). Saying that all of them will decide at the same time to passively watch their species die out when any of them seem to be capable of individually creating Broodmothers - though I imagine it would be easier with help - seems rather unlikely.

Your job is to stop the blights. As soon as the Darkspawn are no longer a threat to humanity, your job is over. Sure, you can keep the order, but the GW are only needed to kill the archdemon: any soldier with a sword can kill darkspawn. In addition, you have to fight the darkspawn now. The worst that could happen is that you'd have to keep on with the whole darkspawn killing thing.

Except it's a lot harder to kill an intelligent darkspawn than a still entrhalled non-Blight one and so you're making your job harder. And even if the Architect did keep his word and didn't make any more epic-scale 'mistakes' he wouldn't be able to free everyone anytime soon and so your job would not be over. Even once all the darkspawn were 'awakened' then you'd still need to be vigilant tha no one was planning anything since if they were it would be all on you for enabling it in the first place.

yet Utha and Seranni are alive and well.

Alive, yes, but they appear to be turnig into ghoul and their mental states may have been compromised. As a Silent Sister, Utha can't talk and we dind't really see enough of Seranni but she didn't really seem all that rational when she was explaining how 'tender' the Architect was.

we do it for them, and we get .... dunno, something, from them.

And what, exactly, do we need from them? Aid against others of their kind? Them to stay far away so as not to infect us or our land with the taint? Them to stop kidnapping people and turning them into Broodmothers?

Which, logically, would be a major reason for intelligent darkspawn not to start an apocalyptic war or epidemic of the taint among surfacers. Self preservation. Darkspawn need tainted flesh and Warden blood to continue their existance as an intelligent species, Wardens must answer the calling before the taint turns them into mindless ghouls - why would intelligent darkspawn screw up what is clearly a neat closed system which benefits them?

If they think ahead then yes, they probably wouldn't want to wipe out everyone. Wiping out enough people so that we're more easily controlled for the purposes they need us for? That seems like a smart move on their part. Andhow does this neat closed system benefit us at all?

[Darkannex]

Except for the fact that for a few loonies, people with aids are not giving it to everyone around them mindfully.



Just, ya know, a SMALL detail...

[Volourn]

"Volourn, you seem to be suggesting that darkspawn reproduce asexually, ie. you say female hostages aren't raped. If that were the case, why the need for a broodmother at all ? Wouldn't the darkspawn just bud/fragment and all be clones ?"



No. the assumption is they reproduce through broodmothers. How broodmothers actually reproduce is the question. We have nio idea how broodmother/darkspawn birthing practices actually work. I could get really disguting if I go into detail how I think si one way but I'd rather not go there. L0L



My point is females aren't rape in the 'classic' sense of forced sexual intercourse but violated in the sense that the forced transformation from x species do broodmother is painful, disgusting, and a violation of their person.





"I think there's enough in-game evidence to suggest they reproduce along the line of honey bees (queen bee = broodmother, darkspawn = worker bees). But I'm fascinated what your theory is on how they reproduce. "



The broodmothers are the breeders but we don't know how they do it. Is it sexually? I'd say not. It's probably something else entirely. Part of their taint perhaps.

[Mr_Steph]

The way I see it your choice is either short term and a long term with short term is killing him, ending the darkspawn threat here and now but have them resurface more often in the future and by letting him go you seek a long term solution to the darkspawn problem.

[Darkannex]

That's interesting Mr_Steph - I see it as just the opposite. Trading a short term quasi-peace for a long term remorseless struggle against intelligent DS

[Costin_Razvan]

We do try to eradicate those which are incompatible with human life. If you could remove the AIDS or ebola virus from the planet, would you not do it out of some misguided notion of "genocide"?

Comparing the removal of AIDS to Darkspawn, how lovely, but I will bite that argument.

If we were to use your methods and thinking of removing AIDS ( which you compared to Darkspawn and think they should be all killed ) then the best course of action would be to simply kill every single person on this planet with AIDS and forcing everyone to get medical scans for it every year.

End result would be AIDS most likely eliminated in a few years. Why don't we do this though, it surely would be the most effective method of combating AIDS. What because people MIGHT NOT have sexual encounters with AIDS? That is a laughable thing.

Hell if AIDS was a disease spread by pigeons you wouldn't see people eradicating pigeons as a species.

Seriously, the thinking that destruction and killing is a good thing has led to nothing but disaster after disaster throughout our entire history.

Darkannex : Your solution is to not even try peace? I agree that if the Darkspawn with the Architect in the future prove to be a threat they need to be put down, but is the offer of peace not even worth considering?

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 29 mars 2010 - 12:01 .

[sylvanaerie]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

We do try to eradicate those which are incompatible with human life. If you could remove the AIDS or ebola virus from the planet, would you not do it out of some misguided notion of "genocide"?

Comparing the removal of AIDS to Darkspawn, how lovely, but I will bite that argument.

If we were to use your methods and thinking of removing AIDS ( which you compared to Darkspawn and think they should be all killed ) then the best course of action would be to simply kill every single person on this planet with AIDS and forcing everyone to get medical scans for it every year.

End result would be AIDS most likely eliminated in a few years. Why don't we do this though, it surely would be the most effective method of combating AIDS. What because people MIGHT NOT have sexual encounters with AIDS? That is a laughable thing.

Hell if AIDS was a disease spread by pigeons you wouldn't see people eradicating pigeons as a species.

Seriously, the thinking that destruction and killing is a good thing has led to nothing but disaster after disaster throughout our entire history.

Darkannex : Your solution is to not even try peace? I agree that if the Darkspawn with the Architect in the future prove to be a threat they need to be put down, but is the offer of peace not even worth considering?

Considering her opinion of birds Shale would be more than happy to rid Thedas of AIDS infected pigeons.