1316 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

Efesell wrote...

At best the Architect might have WANTED The Withered to take a more diplomatic route, but that is clearly not how it went down. There's really no reason to assume that it would.. since it was one disciple and your standard group of kill-happy rank and file darkspawn.

There are lots of reasons to assume that. The Disciples and the Architect got a similar effect as an Archdemon on the Darkspawn. The Darkspawn are drawn to them and look to them for leadership. However once their Bloodlust gets too high not even the Architect can stop the Darkspawns nature.

Efesell wrote...

And the disciple was more than happy to sparta kick someone into spikes while talking about how he doesn't want too much violence..

By then it was already too late anyway, violence had erupted and they got what they came for.

[Efesell]

Also it's funny to think that The Withered was the most diplomatic Disciple he could find.

[Sarah1281]

Which is why he undoubtably spent the rest of the game coaching the Messenger.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Efesell wrote...

Also it's funny to think that The Withered was the most diplomatic Disciple he could find.

Aggressive negotiations, you know

[Addai]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

By then it was already too late anyway, violence had erupted and they got what they came for.

Right, as in when the Withered orders his troops to capture your PC and kill the others.  Which is remarkably similar to the tack the Architect takes later- he wants to keep you around as long as you cooperate with his plans, willingly or not, and failing that, it's dragon thrall time.  What I see in the Vigil attack, then, is a consistent m.o., not a diplomatic overture gone wrong.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Addai67 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

By then it was already too late anyway, violence had erupted and they got what they came for.

Right, as in when the Withered orders his troops to capture your PC and kill the others.  Which is remarkably similar to the tack the Architect takes later- he wants to keep you around as long as you cooperate with his plans, willingly or not, and failing that, it's dragon thrall time.  What I see in the Vigil attack, then, is a consistent m.o., not a diplomatic overture gone wrong.

Uhm, diplomacy was long out the window by the time we arrived, why would he try to reassume it? Besides all of our party members are standing ther shouting about how we should kill the talking darkspawn. Not exactly the best incentive to start a dialogue you know (yeah yeah, fighting is another form of dialogue yadda yadda yadda).

[Layn]

Addai67 wrote...

You are commissioned to lead Ferelden's armies in Loghain's place.  When you talk to Fergus post-coronation, he says "when I heard that my little sister was not only a Grey Warden, but leading Ferelden's armies..."

For not the first time in this thread, I have to say, "long live Loghain."  Never thought anything would induce me to that.  LOL

i hadn't actually noticed Fergus oops
long live Loghain! (but still punish him a little for all the stuff he did)

God... feels like an eternity since i played that part of dragon age.

Sarah1281 wrote...

my god!
it's a wonder it all worked out somehow!

Well if Loghain's
still alive it wouldn't be a problem as he would be MORE than happy to
make sure you don't accidentally get Denerim destroyed. If not, Alistair
doesn't really seem to know much about leading armies but I'm sure
Eamon or Teagan would be glad to offer advice. Especially Teagan. ../../../images/forum/emoticons/love.png

thehe Teagan.
darned alistair making me choose between him or loghain ... dammit

Modifié par Crrash, 29 mars 2010 - 07:25 .

[Efesell]

Actually why is he sparing Varel anyway.

[Addai]

My point is that the attack on the Vigil is exactly in keeping with what you see later in the game of the Architect, not an anomaly.



Why take his words over his actions?

[EmperorSahlertz]

All the Architect ever did, throughout all of the game was to try and free as many Darkspawn as possible from the Old Gods. THAT is the action I'm judging him by. That he has attempted to kill me is a non-issue. Zevran and Loghain both tried to kill me and they still became trusted party members.



And I don't think the Withered was exactly planning on sparing Varel, we just sorta interrupted his execution

[Efesell]

Well he says "be taking this one quietly now" or something like that.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Efesell wrote...

Well he says "be taking this one quietly now" or something like that.

Hmm, well either he liked his aftershave or the powers of the plot gods spared Varel

[Zeleen]

The Architect is the first darkspawn to develop a will of his own--an unusual outcast who seems not to be subject to the call of the Old Gods, nor to the other darkspawn compulsions. But although he is highly intelligent, the Architect has little understanding of humanity. Treating him as anything other than what he is–a darkspawn–would be folly. quote from bioware's page on Awakening,



so I will treat him as Dark spawn = Death.

[Sarah1281]

And I don't think the Withered was exactly planning on sparing Varel, we just sorta interrupted his execution

That could be true, but they were holding a knife to his throat so why not slit it before dealing with the Wardens? That's what they do in the cutscene when you first arrive at the darkspawn-overrun Denerim and there's a human on the ground who sees you arriving and then the darkspawn holding a knife at his throat slits it before dealing with the army.

[Efesell]

Only thing he has going for him is knowing how the Joining is prepared.

And I don't see how the darkspawn could know that.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Well in all honesty I just think Varel was in that predicament for added intensity of the situation. And we all know that the bad guys enjoy holding good guys prisoner and give them rich oppertunities of escape, just see a James Bond movie.

[IanPolaris]

Efesell wrote...

Only thing he has going for him is knowing how the Joining is prepared.
And I don't see how the darkspawn could know that.

That would be my guess, especially since the Architect has to have a reliable and steady supply of Grey Warden Blood for his plans.....

It also means that this wasn't a "failed negotiation" attempt.  This was a blatent and well thought out (and malicious) sneak attack with the intend of crippling and capturing as many wardens as possible....and the knowledge to make more on demand.

That means the Achitect is a liar among other things.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

All the survivors never said they were ambushed.. They say: "They appeared out of nowhere!" I'm sorry to tell you but this might just as well mean that suddenly a bunch of Darkspawn is at the front gate and some douche inside the keep thought they were attacking.

And who the hell says I trust the Architect? I'm just saying I like his vision, and if he can bring it to frution I might as well let him try.

The survivers also say that they came "from nowhere" and that most of the had been taken and soldiers killed before anyone knew what had happened and before a defense could be mounted.  The Capt Garival speculates (and it's later confirmed) that the Darkspawn SNUCK UP FROM THE DEEP ROADS.

Why do that unless your intent was to ambush Vigil's Keep in the most brutal and effective way possible?

No, either the Architect is lying to you or he can't deal/control with his own disciples.  Either way he must die because he can not be trusted.  The survivers of the keep have no reason to lie to you (it makes security at the keep look bad but they say it anyway) and the Architect at the very end has every reason to lie to you.

Think about it.

-Polaris

[Addai]

Efesell wrote...

Only thing he has going for him is knowing how the Joining is prepared.
And I don't see how the darkspawn could know that.

I'm assuming they learned this from Utha, Bregan, or Genevieve.

[Thor Rand Al]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

All the Architect ever did, throughout all of the game was to try and free as many Darkspawn as possible from the Old Gods. THAT is the action I'm judging him by. That he has attempted to kill me is a non-issue. Zevran and Loghain both tried to kill me and they still became trusted party members.

And I don't think the Withered was exactly planning on sparing Varel, we just sorta interrupted his execution

What!?!?!  Zevran and Loghain aren't corrupted and tainted darkspawn.  The Architect is a mutated darkspawn.  He's not even human, Zev and Loghain are.  Majorly BIG difference.



What is a Grey Wardens job?  To kill the darkspawn and end the Blight no matter the cost.  We ended the Blight but our job still isn't done.  Just because the ArchDemon is dead doesn't mean a Grey Warden's job is done.  It will never be done as long as there are darkspawn around.  Doesn't matter if you made them stronger or not.  Doesn't matter if they are no longer forced to seek out the Old God.  THEY ARE STILL DARKSPAWN!!!!  They are still a danger to the world.

The Architect never once comes right out and says there will never be another Blight.  All he wants to do is free his brethren from the Call.  That doesn't mean they won't stop looking especially if the Old God can help them take over the surface.

Letting the Architect live is an easy out for the Warden.  When you're making that decision about letting him live are you thinking about yourself or are you thinking about the rest of Thedas and what letting him live could cost in the long run.  He does not care about the surface world.  All he cares about are freeing his brethren and damn the consequences.  And that's all you doing by letting him live, damn the consequences

[Layn]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

The Architect never once comes right out and says there will never be another Blight.  All he wants to do is free his brethren from the Call.  That doesn't mean they won't stop looking especially if the Old God can help them take over the surface.

actually it does.
The architect specifically says that blights (aka full invasions of the surface) are disastrous for the darkspawn and hes awakening the darkspawn so no more blights happen.

of course this completely depends on if you believe him, but he did say it.

and no darkspawn has ever shown itself interested in creating the blight or having an archdemon. they just want to get close to the source of the song/call they hear.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Well this thread has gone a long way since I was here. And it seems to be going in circles. So I won't get myself into it again.

I guess we will have to wait and see the results at the end, though I doubt that the death or survival of the architect will be that relevent in the longrun.

Thor Rand Al wrote...
What!?!?!  Zevran and Loghain aren't corrupted and tainted darkspawn.  The Architect is a mutated darkspawn.  He's not even human, Zev and Loghain are.  Majorly BIG difference.

Eum, Zevran isn't human. He is an elf. And an Antivan at that, aka not to be trusted. Plus a crow, which makes it worse.

Just saying

[Darkannex]

But Zev IS a recruitable party member Sometimes gameplay trumps logic.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

All the Architect ever did, throughout all of the game was to try and free as many Darkspawn as possible from the Old Gods. THAT is the action I'm judging him by. That he has attempted to kill me is a non-issue. Zevran and Loghain both tried to kill me and they still became trusted party members.

And I don't think the Withered was exactly planning on sparing Varel, we just sorta interrupted his execution

What!?!?!  Zevran and Loghain aren't corrupted and tainted darkspawn.  The Architect is a mutated darkspawn.  He's not even human, Zev and Loghain are.  Majorly BIG difference.



What is a Grey Wardens job?  To kill the darkspawn and end the Blight no matter the cost.  We ended the Blight but our job still isn't done.  Just because the ArchDemon is dead doesn't mean a Grey Warden's job is done.  It will never be done as long as there are darkspawn around.  Doesn't matter if you made them stronger or not.  Doesn't matter if they are no longer forced to seek out the Old God.  THEY ARE STILL DARKSPAWN!!!!  They are still a danger to the world.

The Architect never once comes right out and says there will never be another Blight.  All he wants to do is free his brethren from the Call.  That doesn't mean they won't stop looking especially if the Old God can help them take over the surface.

Letting the Architect live is an easy out for the Warden.  When you're making that decision about letting him live are you thinking about yourself or are you thinking about the rest of Thedas and what letting him live could cost in the long run.  He does not care about the surface world.  All he cares about are freeing his brethren and damn the consequences.  And that's all you doing by letting him live, damn the consequences

Our job is to stop the Blights. Darkspawn are coincidentally the "cause" of said Blights and thus killing htem helps stopping the Blight. But our job is to stop the Blight at ANY cost. If this cost is to help a Darkspawn prevent further Blights then I'll be damned that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make. You aren't giving a damn about the consequences either by killing him. By killing him you doom the world to experience two more Blights (at least) and you don't even give a damn about what the cost of stopping these Blights might be. By letting him live, I've at least given the world a chance to never experience another Blight and let the 5th one be the last.

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

All the survivors never said they were ambushed.. They say: "They appeared out of nowhere!" I'm sorry to tell you but this might just as well mean that suddenly a bunch of Darkspawn is at the front gate and some douche inside the keep thought they were attacking.

And who the hell says I trust the Architect? I'm just saying I like his vision, and if he can bring it to frution I might as well let him try.

The survivers also say that they came "from nowhere" and that most of the had been taken and soldiers killed before anyone knew what had happened and before a defense could be mounted.  The Capt Garival speculates (and it's later confirmed) that the Darkspawn SNUCK UP FROM THE DEEP ROADS.

Why do that unless your intent was to ambush Vigil's Keep in the most brutal and effective way possible?

No, either the Architect is lying to you or he can't deal/control with his own disciples.  Either way he must die because he can not be trusted.  The survivers of the keep have no reason to lie to you (it makes security at the keep look bad but they say it anyway) and the Architect at the very end has every reason to lie to you.

Think about it.

-Polaris

What part of "They are alien and don't understnad the human point of view" dont you understand? The Deep Roads for the Darkspawn was clearly just the fastest and easiet way to get from A to B. If a Grey Warden suddenly sees a Darkspawn inside his keep of course he is going to attack and all hell will break loose. OF COURSE half the soldiers there don't udnerstnad what is going on, they are keeping a watch on the outside not the inside. Suddenly there are Darkspawn everywhere (by now aggressive because of the attack) and it is a natural assumption for the soldiers there to think they are the ones being attacked. "But why didn't the Withered stop them?" I hear you say.. Because he isn't an Archdemon he only got limited control over his brethren, just like the Architect, once the Bloodlust kicks in, they can't stop the "normal" Darkspawn. So when the fighting had erupted the Withered might as well just go get the Wardens, as he was tasked to, one way or another and be on his way.