1316 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

HOW does he intend to stop the Blights, though? Awakening every darkspawn around isn't practical nor can it be done within his lifespan. If he knows where the other two Gods are he should have told the Wardens so they could kill them. THAT would stop the Blights. Or, failing that, he could have his people guard the Old Gods and stop roaming darkspawn from tainting them. Still, if the Old Gods aren't destroyed then their will be another Blight, regardless of whether the Architect delays it. And given that he's probably not going to live for centuries and the Blights tend to be centuries apart anyway, do we even know he's delaying them at all?

And we're not 'dooming' the world to anything. The Blights were already going to happen and if we don't believe that this crazy and untrustworhty darkspawn can do what he's promised and that letting him continue with his experiments will just make the darkspawn more of a threat, killing him is a perfectly sound move. If we don't believe he can stop the Blights, it really is the ONLY rational thing to do. Well, unless you're looking out for the well-being of the darkspawn but I've got enough to do just looking out for the non-darkspawn races of Thedas.

What part of "They are alien and don't understnad the human point of view" dont you understand? 

I don't think that really helps your case. If the Architect has spent all these years with Utha and has dealt with other species and still doesn't get them (for if he did he'd tell them not to sneak up on them) then how can they possibly hope to coexist later? Any and all interaction would end in a bloodbath as one side thinks the other is attacking.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 29 mars 2010 - 10:03 .

[NightmarezAbound]

Yes, you may stop the cycle of the Blight, which happens every few centuries. Where what threat will the Darkspawn truly become if they have free will to do as they please, considering the only means of reproducing for a Darkspawn is by the Broodmothers. Which are Humans/Elves/Dwarves/Qunari captives tainted to become so. They go from creatures of instinct to creatures of free thought. a Race hunted and backed into a corner who will continue to plague the other races be there blights or not.

You would turn a cycle on the surface of Fereldon which can rebuild and prepare for the next blight, or you can start a neverending war, like the dwarves face on a daily basis for all the known lands.

Which is worse? A Blight every couple to few hundred years, or a constant war with the Darkspawn in the Deep Roads and on the Surface of Fereldon?

The Architect only wishes to break the Cycle of the Blight, but that does not mean peace.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Well actually we don't know how long Darkspawn live, but judging by the Topsider's Honor questline they can live for a very long time indeed. But the Architect being quite unique we can't really even guess at his lifespan (other than if you kill him ofcourse...).

You are dooming the world to experience the Blights, it even says so in the epilogue. The intellegent Darkspawn could eventually dig up another Old God (wether intentionally or unintentionally is irrelevant) but it wouldn't have even close to the same amount of influence over the Darkspawn which would make that kind of Blight far less of a threat. "But they are intellegent now!" Some of you shout now. Yeah indeed they are with it comes all the joys of doubt, self-presevation and fear.. and of course differing opinions which would reduce said Blights in power just as much as it would gain from it, if not more, since presumably the Architect's teaching would have taken hold by then, and thus made a Blight unwanted for most Darkspawn.

We could hope to coexsist by learning from our past mistakes, by adapting. But ideally the Darkspawn would remain underground. Which they presumably prefer anyway, since they just swarm the surface during Blights or in small raids, presumably for collecting some females.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 29 mars 2010 - 10:12 .

[Layn]

Sarah1281 wrote...

HOW does he intend to stop the Blights, though? Awakening every darkspawn around isn't practical nor can it be done within his lifespan. If he knows where the other two Gods are he should have told the Wardens so they could kill them. THAT would stop the Blights.

does he hear the call?
anyway, why should HE trust us? after all, grey wardens kill darkspawn. And maybe he even tried before, but the same thing happened as in vigils keep.

btw. can utha and the architect even communicate? can utha explain anything about the surface folk+dwarves?

Modifié par Crrash, 29 mars 2010 - 10:14 .

[Sarah1281]

Actually, I think a causing a Blight would be a good idea for some of the Architect's followers. They can't hear the song so they'd be left unaffected but if they're having problems with the surface races and want to wipe them out, what better way to wage war?

anyway, why should HE trust us?

Should he? Maybe not in general, but he should trust us to do our job and regardless of whether we feel our job is to wipe out every darkspawn in existance or to help them better themselves as a species one thing is clear. As GW our most important job is ending the Blight, yes. If he lets us know where the OG are then we will be obligated to kill them before they could be tainted and start a Blight. Just because we might want him dead doesn't mean we don't want the future Archdemon equally dead.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 29 mars 2010 - 10:16 .

[Thor Rand Al]

Crrash wrote...

Thor Rand Al wrote...

The Architect never once comes right out and says there will never be another Blight.  All he wants to do is free his brethren from the Call.  That doesn't mean they won't stop looking especially if the Old God can help them take over the surface.

actually it does.
The architect specifically says that blights (aka full invasions of the surface) are disastrous for the darkspawn and hes awakening the darkspawn so no more blights happen.

of course this completely depends on if you believe him, but he did say it.

and no darkspawn has ever shown itself interested in creating the blight or having an archdemon. they just want to get close to the source of the song/call they hear.

Sorry but again not once does he say there will never be another blight. Yes he says they are disastrous for his people but he does not come right out and say there will never be another blight again.
Architects words:
My kind has ever been driven to seek out the Old Gods.  This is our nature.  When we find one, a Blight is begun.
Each time, we attack your surface lands, and you fight back until we are defeated.
To break the cycle, my brethren must be freed of their compulsion.
Hundreds of thousands of my kind are killed before each Blight is ended.  It is a plague on our race.
We do not begin a Blight because we crave power or destruction.  We obey the call of the Old Gods--without choice.

No where n all of his words does he promise or swear (even if he did promise I still wouldn't believe him, not after seeing all his actions until the Messenger, as it is he was the reason for the last Blight) there will never be another Blight.  This is a decision that could have major reprecussions down the future if you let him live.  We know nothing about what how this will unfold for the future of Thedas.  But we do know about the ArchDemon and the Blights.  When your dealing with something of this magnatude wouldn't it be wiser to deal with what you do know then take a chance on what you don't know.  Your putting the lives of millions at risk just for a chance that may or may not be disastrous in the future.  And he's not curing the most dangerous part of these creatures.  They still corrupt and taint and just with that they are a ticking time bomb.  

[Sarah1281]

He promised Utha he would stop the Blights but that's meta-gaming and he as he actually ended up starting the Fifth one, I have to wonder why she still believes him.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Thor Rand Al wrote...
Sorry but again not once does he say there will never be another blight. Yes he says they are disastrous for his people but he does not come right out and say there will never be another blight again.
Architects words:
My kind has ever been driven to seek out the Old Gods.  This is our nature.  When we find one, a Blight is begun.
Each time, we attack your surface lands, and you fight back until we are defeated.
To break the cycle, my brethren must be freed of their compulsion.
Hundreds of thousands of my kind are killed before each Blight is ended.  It is a plague on our race.
We do not begin a Blight because we crave power or destruction.  We obey the call of the Old Gods--without choice.

No where n all of his words does he promise or swear (even if he did promise I still wouldn't believe him, not after seeing all his actions until the Messenger, as it is he was the reason for the last Blight) there will never be another Blight.  

He does say, to break the cycle, the darkspawn must be freed from the song.
So yes, he does say that he believes that if the song is gone, there will no longer be any blights.

Whether you believe him or not is another issue. But he is telling you that he is trying to stop the blights. Of course he can't promise that he will be succesful, but he will try.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
What part of "They are alien and don't understnad the human point of view" dont you understand? The Deep Roads for the Darkspawn was clearly just the fastest and easiet way to get from A to B. If a Grey Warden suddenly sees a Darkspawn inside his keep of course he is going to attack and all hell will break loose. OF COURSE half the soldiers there don't udnerstnad what is going on, they are keeping a watch on the outside not the inside. Suddenly there are Darkspawn everywhere (by now aggressive because of the attack) and it is a natural assumption for the soldiers there to think they are the ones being attacked. "But why didn't the Withered stop them?" I hear you say.. Because he isn't an Archdemon he only got limited control over his brethren, just like the Architect, once the Bloodlust kicks in, they can't stop the "normal" Darkspawn. So when the fighting had erupted the Withered might as well just go get the Wardens, as he was tasked to, one way or another and be on his way.

This reasoning it BOLLUCKS and complete rubbish.  ANY creature (even non-sapient ones) understand instictively that someone that sneaks up on you and then ATTACKS YOU is not your friend.  Even the darkspawn should be able to understand (and do understand) that SNEAK ATTACKING unspecting people is not the way to open up peace negotiations....unless you want them to surender to you (which I do think is one of the Architects ultimate aims.  I DO think the architect wishes for humanity and Darkspawn to coexist, with a tainted humanity serving as cattle for their Darkspawn overlords.)  Never forget that the Architect is a darkspawn first and formost and needs to be treated as such, i.e. he must die as must the rest of his species.

-Polaris

[Thor Rand Al]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Our job is to stop the Blights. Darkspawn are coincidentally the "cause" of said Blights and thus killing htem helps stopping the Blight. But our job is to stop the Blight at ANY cost. If this cost is to help a Darkspawn prevent further Blights then I'll be damned that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make. You aren't giving a damn about the consequences either by killing him. By killing him you doom the world to experience two more Blights (at least) and you don't even give a damn about what the cost of stopping these Blights might be. By letting him live, I've at least given the world a chance to never experience another Blight and let the 5th one be the last.

A Grey Warden's job is to stop the Blight yes but it's also their job to stop the darkspawn also.

Duncan's words:  "We must do whatever it takes to destroy the darkspawn...exciting or no."

[Thor Rand Al]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Thor Rand Al wrote...
Sorry but again not once does he say there will never be another blight. Yes he says they are disastrous for his people but he does not come right out and say there will never be another blight again.
Architects words:
My kind has ever been driven to seek out the Old Gods.  This is our nature.  When we find one, a Blight is begun.
Each time, we attack your surface lands, and you fight back until we are defeated.
To break the cycle, my brethren must be freed of their compulsion.
Hundreds of thousands of my kind are killed before each Blight is ended.  It is a plague on our race.
We do not begin a Blight because we crave power or destruction.  We obey the call of the Old Gods--without choice.

No where n all of his words does he promise or swear (even if he did promise I still wouldn't believe him, not after seeing all his actions until the Messenger, as it is he was the reason for the last Blight) there will never be another Blight.  

He does say, to break the cycle, the darkspawn must be freed from the song.
So yes, he does say that he believes that if the song is gone, there will no longer be any blights.

Whether you believe him or not is another issue. But he is telling you that he is trying to stop the blights. Of course he can't promise that he will be succesful, but he will try.

You said it right there; he believes that if the song is gone, there will no longer be any blights.   Thats not a yes there will no longer be anymore Blights.  In other words he's not sure if it will work or not.

[IanPolaris]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Our job is to stop the Blights. Darkspawn are coincidentally the "cause" of said Blights and thus killing htem helps stopping the Blight. But our job is to stop the Blight at ANY cost. If this cost is to help a Darkspawn prevent further Blights then I'll be damned that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make. You aren't giving a damn about the consequences either by killing him. By killing him you doom the world to experience two more Blights (at least) and you don't even give a damn about what the cost of stopping these Blights might be. By letting him live, I've at least given the world a chance to never experience another Blight and let the 5th one be the last.

A Grey Warden's job is to stop the Blight yes but it's also their job to stop the darkspawn also.

Duncan's words:  "We must do whatever it takes to destroy the darkspawn...exciting or no."

Not only that but if you talk with Alistiar before the battle of Ostagar (first one) and before you go out to the Kocari Wilds and ask if the Grey Wardens are "Heros" then, he'll say, "I wouldn't say that.  Grey Wardens are sworn to do whatever it takes to defeat the darkspawn and that includes some pretty extreme things."  Later one we find out that can mean destroying villiages and openly practicing bloodmage and even permitting Grey Wardens to become abominations.

-Polaris

[Layn]

IanPolaris wrote...

This reasoning it BOLLUCKS and complete rubbish. 

well... YOUR reasoning is BOLLUCKS and complete rubbish!



....

...i think i should go to bed now.

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
What part of "They are alien and don't understnad the human point of view" dont you understand? The Deep Roads for the Darkspawn was clearly just the fastest and easiet way to get from A to B. If a Grey Warden suddenly sees a Darkspawn inside his keep of course he is going to attack and all hell will break loose. OF COURSE half the soldiers there don't udnerstnad what is going on, they are keeping a watch on the outside not the inside. Suddenly there are Darkspawn everywhere (by now aggressive because of the attack) and it is a natural assumption for the soldiers there to think they are the ones being attacked. "But why didn't the Withered stop them?" I hear you say.. Because he isn't an Archdemon he only got limited control over his brethren, just like the Architect, once the Bloodlust kicks in, they can't stop the "normal" Darkspawn. So when the fighting had erupted the Withered might as well just go get the Wardens, as he was tasked to, one way or another and be on his way.

This reasoning it BOLLUCKS and complete rubbish.  ANY creature (even non-sapient ones) understand instictively that someone that sneaks up on you and then ATTACKS YOU is not your friend.  Even the darkspawn should be able to understand (and do understand) that SNEAK ATTACKING unspecting people is not the way to open up peace negotiations....unless you want them to surender to you (which I do think is one of the Architects ultimate aims.  I DO think the architect wishes for humanity and Darkspawn to coexist, with a tainted humanity serving as cattle for their Darkspawn overlords.)  Never forget that the Architect is a darkspawn first and formost and needs to be treated as such, i.e. he must die as must the rest of his species.

-Polaris

For the last time they DIDNT SNEAK ANYWHERE. All they did was going through the backdoor instead of ringing the frontdoor bell and waiting patiently. No it isn't normal, yes it would have been better to ring the doorbell and no they do NOT understand humans.

[Addai]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Because he isn't an Archdemon he only got limited control over his brethren, just like the Architect, once the Bloodlust kicks in, they can't stop the "normal" Darkspawn. So when the fighting had erupted the Withered might as well just go get the Wardens, as he was tasked to, one way or another and be on his way.

Can he control himself from kicking a soldier off the side of the battlement?

Your theory is that the Withered decided on his own after the battle started that he would go ahead and kidnap Warden prisoners, since they aren't coming willingly?  Since that is how the Architect operates later in the game (and metagame-wise in The Calling, as well)- using forceful capture of Wardens if necessary- why do you assume that was not the plan all along?  In which case I say again, how is it possible you can trust the Architect farther than you can throw a broodmother?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Thor Rand Al wrote...
You said it right there; he believes that if the song is gone, there will no longer be any blights.   Thats not a yes there will no longer be anymore Blights.  In other words he's not sure if it will work or not.

Of course. But your chances of averting the blights are 0, or close to 0, if you kill the Architect.
If you spare him, your chances are higher.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Thor Rand Al wrote...
Sorry but again not once does he say there will never be another blight. Yes he says they are disastrous for his people but he does not come right out and say there will never be another blight again.
Architects words:
My kind has ever been driven to seek out the Old Gods.  This is our nature.  When we find one, a Blight is begun.
Each time, we attack your surface lands, and you fight back until we are defeated.
To break the cycle, my brethren must be freed of their compulsion.
Hundreds of thousands of my kind are killed before each Blight is ended.  It is a plague on our race.
We do not begin a Blight because we crave power or destruction.  We obey the call of the Old Gods--without choice.

No where n all of his words does he promise or swear (even if he did promise I still wouldn't believe him, not after seeing all his actions until the Messenger, as it is he was the reason for the last Blight) there will never be another Blight.  

He does say, to break the cycle, the darkspawn must be freed from the song.
So yes, he does say that he believes that if the song is gone, there will no longer be any blights.

Whether you believe him or not is another issue. But he is telling you that he is trying to stop the blights. Of course he can't promise that he will be succesful, but he will try.

You said it right there; he believes that if the song is gone, there will no longer be any blights.   Thats not a yes there will no longer be anymore Blights.  In other words he's not sure if it will work or not.

Wait what? Yes the Architect is sure that by ending the compulsion you end the Blights, wether we believe him is a different matter.

[Thor Rand Al]

IanPolaris wrote...

Thor Rand Al wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Our job is to stop the Blights. Darkspawn are coincidentally the "cause" of said Blights and thus killing htem helps stopping the Blight. But our job is to stop the Blight at ANY cost. If this cost is to help a Darkspawn prevent further Blights then I'll be damned that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make. You aren't giving a damn about the consequences either by killing him. By killing him you doom the world to experience two more Blights (at least) and you don't even give a damn about what the cost of stopping these Blights might be. By letting him live, I've at least given the world a chance to never experience another Blight and let the 5th one be the last.

A Grey Warden's job is to stop the Blight yes but it's also their job to stop the darkspawn also.

Duncan's words:  "We must do whatever it takes to destroy the darkspawn...exciting or no."

Not only that but if you talk with Alistiar before the battle of Ostagar (first one) and before you go out to the Kocari Wilds and ask if the Grey Wardens are "Heros" then, he'll say, "I wouldn't say that.  Grey Wardens are sworn to do whatever it takes to defeat the darkspawn and that includes some pretty extreme things."  Later one we find out that can mean destroying villiages and openly practicing bloodmage and even permitting Grey Wardens to become abominations.

-Polaris

Thank you so much, I knew there was another quote somewhere about what a Grey Wardens job is but I couldn't remember where it was lol.

[Thor Rand Al]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Wait what? Yes the Architect is sure that by ending the compulsion you end the Blights, wether we believe him is a different matter.

Lol he does not say he's sure.  Yes it will stop the compulsion but he doesn't come right out and say there will never be another Blight.   What's to say that once their free they still won't look.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Wait what? Yes the Architect is sure that by ending the compulsion you end the Blights, wether we believe him is a different matter.

'
The architect believes this (maybe), but that doesn't mean the architect is right.  The architect has been wrong about plenty both in game and in The Calling.  Even IF the architect is right, that does not mean the architect has humanity's best interests at heart.  Indeed his original plan was to end the blight by ghoulifying (read commit genocide) agains all humanity.  Even now, if he suceeds at turning all humanity (inclusive) into tainted cattle slave/food/breeding-stock for Darkspawn by ending the blight (which I think is his ultimate aim) that is NOT an improvement (unless you are cheering for the Darkspawn).

Darkspawn and humanity (inclusive) can not coexist without one destroying and/or enslaving the other..and the architect is plenty smart enough to understand this.  The question is, is your Grey Warden (or will the architect con yet another tainted pawn into doing his bidding)?

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

Addai67 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Because he isn't an Archdemon he only got limited control over his brethren, just like the Architect, once the Bloodlust kicks in, they can't stop the "normal" Darkspawn. So when the fighting had erupted the Withered might as well just go get the Wardens, as he was tasked to, one way or another and be on his way.

Can he control himself from kicking a soldier off the side of the battlement?

Your theory is that the Withered decided on his own after the battle started that he would go ahead and kidnap Warden prisoners, since they aren't coming willingly?  Since that is how the Architect operates later in the game (and metagame-wise in The Calling, as well)- using forceful capture of Wardens if necessary- why do you assume that was not the plan all along?  In which case I say again, how is it possible you can trust the Architect farther than you can throw a broodmother?

Uhm, so he killed a soldier who had surrendered... So what? The amount of people who had surrendered my Warden has killed is many times higher. So the Withered got astrain of psychopathy in him, are you honestly surprised?
All we know is that the Architect wanted for the Wardens to come along peacefully so they could work together (This "working together" would include using them as test subjects), however we don't know wether the backup plan was to force them along, however that is what the Withered thought was best at least, since that way they still aquired their goal. Why do you assume it was the plan all along? Because he is a Darkspawn? Because he LATER captured you and used you as a test subject? If the Wardens had in the first place come along peacefully, you would probably never had been captured yourself.

[Layn]

as i've said before, i don't exactly care for what the grey warden's job is. The darkspawn are changing. I see a possible way to stop any more blights.

they still end up finding an old god and gain an archdemon? well, now only part of the darkspawn will follow it, and they won't attack as one unit anymore.

[IanPolaris]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

Lol he does not say he's sure.  Yes it will stop the compulsion but he doesn't come right out and say there will never be another Blight.   What's to say that once their free they still won't look.

Absolutely nothing especially when you consider that he did look once before and DID start a blight in doing so (which puts all the blood shed in this blight squarely on the architect's head).  Who's to say that he won't try again "to get it right this time".  Indeed from what I've seen and read of the architect, that seems very likely (that he will seek out another old god and will try again).

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Crrash wrote...

as i've said before, i don't exactly care for what the grey warden's job is. The darkspawn are changing. I see a possible way to stop any more blights.
they still end up finding an old god and gain an archdemon? well, now only part of the darkspawn will follow it, and they won't attack as one unit anymore.

So having humanity fight losing wars against warring nations of darkspawn that will (because they MUST) raid your people for food and/or breeding stock and outbreed you 100,000 to one ALL THE TIME is so much better?!

Ask the dwarves what comes from fighting darkspawn ALL the time, and they fought the stupid ones.

Sure, you might end the blight.  Enslaving humanity to the darkspawn will certainly do that!

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Uhm, so he killed a soldier who had surrendered... So what? The amount of people who had surrendered my Warden has killed is many times higher. So the Withered got astrain of psychopathy in him, are you honestly surprised?
All we know is that the Architect wanted for the Wardens to come along peacefully so they could work together (This "working together" would include using them as test subjects), however we don't know wether the backup plan was to force them along, however that is what the Withered thought was best at least, since that way they still aquired their goal. Why do you assume it was the plan all along? Because he is a Darkspawn? Because he LATER captured you and used you as a test subject? If the Wardens had in the first place come along peacefully, you would probably never had been captured yourself.

What part of SNEAK ATTACK did you miss?  Sneak attacks are not considered friendly acts....by anyone.   You have multiple first hand accounts that the Darkspawn engaged in a vicious and sudden sneak attack, and you would take the word of the architect who has experimented on you, and who you have no reason to trust over your own soldiers and commanders?

Nice.  I know whose side you're on.

-Polaris