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[Thor Rand Al]

IanPolaris wrote...

Thor Rand Al wrote...

Lol he does not say he's sure.  Yes it will stop the compulsion but he doesn't come right out and say there will never be another Blight.   What's to say that once their free they still won't look.

Absolutely nothing especially when you consider that he did look once before and DID start a blight in doing so (which puts all the blood shed in this blight squarely on the architect's head).  Who's to say that he won't try again "to get it right this time".  Indeed from what I've seen and read of the architect, that seems very likely (that he will seek out another old god and will try again).

-Polaris

Exactly.  He is the reason for the last Blight.  Thanks to the Mother for volunteering that wonderful piece of information I wish I could of killed him right there but unfortunately Bioware wouldn't let us lmao.  And thanks to Bregan they know where the rest of the Old Gods are.  He has information that could destroy us.  If he's allowed to live he's literally got us around a noose.

[Lantrov]

I'd rather fight the two blights and be done with it, Thedas has already survived 4 fully fledged Blights, the 5th down before it began. Ferelden is also becoming a powerful country with the help of your Warden, with a strong base of Grey Wardens who also holds the throne and the arling of Amaranthine, it'll be way better suited than the other nations, except the Anderfels, to combat a 6th Blight.

Besides, if the darkspawn gain free thought its only a matter of time before they have to rekindle hostilities to survive and begin stealing females from families through Shrieks to make Broodmothers, block trade routes that feed the cities, they might even read books to actually advance in technology and learn more about tactics/strategy.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Wether I would take the word of a delussional wounded and panic stricken survivor over the word of an intellectual darkspawn who actually gav ethe order in the first place? No.



Try read some first hand sources of people surving some of the more horrific battles and you will soon learn that most can't be trusted. I would have preferd to see a written order with a stamp and date, but I doubt that Darkspawn are that far yet.

[Layn]

well it won't be done with it after the 2 blights. what will happen with all the darkspawn, now free of the call? where will they go?

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
For the last time they DIDNT SNEAK ANYWHERE. All they did was going through the backdoor instead of ringing the frontdoor bell and waiting patiently. No it isn't normal, yes it would have been better to ring the doorbell and no they do NOT understand humans.

BOLLUCKS.  The Darkspawn entered in a way and methode to DELIBATELY try to hide their presence until it was too late.  It's commented more than once that the Grey Wardens had NO WARNING before the attack and that's not normal.  The only way you are going to defeat Grey Warden "Darkspawn taint sensing" is if you are deliberately trying to evade it and THAT means it was in fact a sneak attack.

Please.  Don't rewrite what actually happens in the game.  What happened at Vigil's keep WAS a deliberate and malicious sneak attack done by Withered at the Architect's orders.

-Polaris

[Addai]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Uhm, so he killed a soldier who had surrendered... So what? The amount of people who had surrendered my Warden has killed is many times higher. So the Withered got astrain of psychopathy in him, are you honestly surprised?

Considering that others arguing for this side have said "so we give a few women over to be broodmothers, so what?", I don't know if you want to go down this rhetorical path.  Not if you're to be taken seriously.

All we know is that the Architect wanted for the Wardens to come along peacefully so they could work together (This "working together" would include using them as test subjects), however we don't know wether the backup plan was to force them along,

When you woke up in the Architect's lair in a cage with a locked door, what did that tell you about his idea of Plan B?  How about when he loosed the dragon thralls on you rather than let you escape?

 If the Wardens had in the first place come along peacefully, you would probably never had been captured yourself.

Oh, so is this what we have to look forward to in your vision of cooperating with the Architect?  You either do as he says or he takes what he wants by force?  All for the greater good, I presume.

[Sarah1281]

You're taking the word of someone who wasn't there over someone who was. Maybe the Architect didn't want them to ambush the Keep but that is, by all accounts, what happened.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Wether I would take the word of a delussional wounded and panic stricken survivor over the word of an intellectual darkspawn who actually gav ethe order in the first place? No.

Try read some first hand sources of people surving some of the more horrific battles and you will soon learn that most can't be trusted. I would have preferd to see a written order with a stamp and date, but I doubt that Darkspawn are that far yet.

So you are saying that all after-action reports in combat can not be trusted?  Really?  You are talking the word of something that has given you no reason to trust it over multiple reports by your own men.

I think we're done here.  If you can not see that what happened at Vigil was a sneak attack, then you'd argue the sky was polka-dotted if it made the architect look better regardless what what the facts are.

-Polaris

[TJSolo]

http://social.biowar.../47/index/24655



Thanks.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJSolo wrote...

http://social.biowar.../47/index/24655

Thanks.

A little too late for that, don't you think?

[Northern Sun]

Collaborating with the Architect just doesn't seem to be the very smart thing to do, in my opinion. Blights tend to be as bad as they are because the darkspawn find a leader capable of:

1) Bringing the darkspawn into one organized faction.

2) Planning a strategy to inflict maximum damage on the surface.

Disciples have been shown to be capable of both these roles, so it just seems like your switching one foe for another. And while disciples are easier to kill than archdemons, they are also way easier to replace.



And even if the enlightened darkspawn faction didn't want to make war on anybody, their very survival as a species requires that they kidnap females from other species and transform them into broodmothers.(unless there would be some change that would happen in darkspawn reproduction that I missed)

[EmperorSahlertz]

Addai67 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Uhm, so he killed a soldier who had surrendered... So what? The amount of people who had surrendered my Warden has killed is many times higher. So the Withered got astrain of psychopathy in him, are you honestly surprised?

Considering that others arguing for this side have said "so we give a few women over to be broodmothers, so what?", I don't know if you want to go down this rhetorical path.  Not if you're to be taken seriously.

All we know is that the Architect wanted for the Wardens to come along peacefully so they could work together (This "working together" would include using them as test subjects), however we don't know wether the backup plan was to force them along,

When you woke up in the Architect's lair in a cage with a locked door, what did that tell you about his idea of Plan B?  How about when he loosed the dragon thralls on you rather than let you escape?

 If the Wardens had in the first place come along peacefully, you would probably never had been captured yourself.

Oh, so is this what we have to look forward to in your vision of cooperating with the Architect?  You either do as he says or he takes what he wants by force?  All for the greater good, I presume.

Well considering the other side is arguing: Oh well lets just sacrifice a couple of possibly million of lives, acres devastated farmland and a lot of tears for the hypothetical end of the Blights... If a few needs to be sacrificed for the many, then so be it. I would gladly let it be Grey Wardens bearing this sacrifice to save the commoners of the entire world.

[TJSolo]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJSolo wrote...

http://social.biowar.../47/index/24655

Thanks.

A little too late for that, don't you think?

I only noticed this topic as it was on the top of the index while I was going into the spoiler free Awakenings section. It was at a glance and then spoiler in topic awesomeness.Yours would be the only post I have read.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Northern Sun wrote...

Collaborating with the Architect just doesn't seem to be the very smart thing to do, in my opinion. Blights tend to be as bad as they are because the darkspawn find a leader capable of:
1) Bringing the darkspawn into one organized faction.
2) Planning a strategy to inflict maximum damage on the surface.
Disciples have been shown to be capable of both these roles, so it just seems like your switching one foe for another. And while disciples are easier to kill than archdemons, they are also way easier to replace.

And even if the enlightened darkspawn faction didn't want to make war on anybody, their very survival as a species requires that they kidnap females from other species and transform them into broodmothers.(unless there would be some change that would happen in darkspawn reproduction that I missed)

The disciples has also proven to be able to disagree and fight each other. Intellegence doesn't equel unity, just look at our world.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well considering the other side is arguing: Oh well lets just sacrifice a couple of possibly million of lives, acres devastated farmland and a lot of tears for the hypothetical end of the Blights... If a few needs to be sacrificed for the many, then so be it. I would gladly let it be Grey Wardens bearing this sacrifice to save the commoners of the entire world.

There isn't any alternative that isn't going to be soaked in blood somewhere.  However, if we kill the architect, then there are only two blights remaining and after that, the corner should be turned on the darkspawn threat and eventually the darkspawn can be eradicted.

You make the darkspawn SMART and free-willed, then they will be around FOREVER and will try to enslave and taint humanity forever.  Given that the darkspawn outbreed humanity thousands to one, even if the darkspawn fracture the end result is brutally plain....humanity is at best enslaved as cattle for the darkspawn or at worst destroyed.  That IS the darkspawn nature and it's proven over and over again both in the books and in game.  The Old God calling has nothing to do with it.  It's inherent in the taint (it's the taint that makes the Old Gods go bad not the other way around...and there are direct game references that back me up on this....see Morrigan's child).

Given the choice between the opporunity to be free of the darkspawn and the near certainty of eternal war and eventual enslavement, it's not a hard choice.  The Architect must die.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The disciples has also proven to be able to disagree and fight each other. Intellegence doesn't equel unity, just look at our world.

So instead of having one mighty blight to deal with every few centures we have multiple warring nations that taint and raid humanity for food/breeding stock and outnumber humanity thousands to one.

NOT an improvement.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well considering the other side is arguing: Oh well lets just sacrifice a couple of possibly million of lives, acres devastated farmland and a lot of tears for the hypothetical end of the Blights... If a few needs to be sacrificed for the many, then so be it. I would gladly let it be Grey Wardens bearing this sacrifice to save the commoners of the entire world.

There isn't any alternative that isn't going to be soaked in blood somewhere.  However, if we kill the architect, then there are only two blights remaining and after that, the corner should be turned on the darkspawn threat and eventually the darkspawn can be eradicted.

You make the darkspawn SMART and free-willed, then they will be around FOREVER and will try to enslave and taint humanity forever.  Given that the darkspawn outbreed humanity thousands to one, even if the darkspawn fracture the end result is brutally plain....humanity is at best enslaved as cattle for the darkspawn or at worst destroyed.  That IS the darkspawn nature and it's proven over and over again both in the books and in game.  The Old God calling has nothing to do with it.  It's inherent in the taint (it's the taint that makes the Old Gods go bad not the other way around...and there are direct game references that back me up on this....see Morrigan's child).

Given the choice between the opporunity to be free of the darkspawn and the near certainty of eternal war and eventual enslavement, it's not a hard choice.  The Architect must die.

-Polaris

The call of the Old Gods are described as a cycle. Until the 7nth Blight has been dealt with and several centuries has pased to ensure nothing happens again, I have no reason to think that the seventh Blight will be the end of all Blights. Once a cycle reaches its end it restarts.. (Now I just hope you aren't one of those 2012 believers )

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The disciples has also proven to be able to disagree and fight each other. Intellegence doesn't equel unity, just look at our world.

So instead of having one mighty blight to deal with every few centures we have multiple warring nations that taint and raid humanity for food/breeding stock and outnumber humanity thousands to one.

NOT an improvement.

-Polaris

And how is that a change from our current situation aside from the internal warfare amongst the Darkspawn? There are Darkspawn raids on the surface even before the awakening you know. With the awakening however they might actually do something useful and kill eachother off.

[Thor Rand Al]

I've got a question kind of off topic. Once the lands been corrupted will it forever be corrupted or is there a way that it can be restored. I would assume that inbetween Blights the land heals itself. But if these creatures are coming up continusly then the land won't have a chance to heal. If that's the case then farmers will start losing their trade to the corruption and people will slowly start suffering all over.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

I've got a question kind of off topic. Once the lands been corrupted will it forever be corrupted or is there a way that it can be restored. I would assume that inbetween Blights the land heals itself. But if these creatures are coming up continusly then the land won't have a chance to heal. If that's the case then farmers will start losing their trade to the corruption and people will slowly start suffering all over.

Well there is a part of the Anderfels which havn't healed, yet anyway. But that was because it was the exact same location for two Blights to happen. There havn't been any mention of "blighted lands" in either Tevinter or Antiva though.

Besides why are you all assuming the Darkspawn would venture to the surface any more frequently than they are in-between Blights?

[Thor Rand Al]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Thor Rand Al wrote...

I've got a question kind of off topic. Once the lands been corrupted will it forever be corrupted or is there a way that it can be restored. I would assume that inbetween Blights the land heals itself. But if these creatures are coming up continusly then the land won't have a chance to heal. If that's the case then farmers will start losing their trade to the corruption and people will slowly start suffering all over.

Well there is a part of the Anderfels which havn't healed, yet anyway. But that was because it was the exact same location for two Blights to happen. There havn't been any mention of "blighted lands" in either Tevinter or Antiva though.

Besides why are you all assuming the Darkspawn would venture to the surface any more frequently than they are in-between Blights?

Um because the 1 insurance we do have with them not Awakened is the compulsion to keep searching for the Old God.  Without it what are they going to do?  That's the surface world's protection from them, that calling they hear, that keeps them preoccupied from doing much worse damage then what they could be doing.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The call of the Old Gods are described as a cycle. Until the 7nth Blight has been dealt with and several centuries has pased to ensure nothing happens again, I have no reason to think that the seventh Blight will be the end of all Blights. Once a cycle reaches its end it restarts.. (Now I just hope you aren't one of those 2012 believers )

I do.  There are ONLY seven old gods and when a Grey Warden defeats an Archdemon (unless you took Morrigan's shortcut), that Old God is not only dead but destroyed forever (it's very soul is gone).  That was why Flemeth and Morrigan helped you to begin with.  They don't want all the Old Gods absolutely annhilated.  However there is NO EVIDENCE that it's the old gods that make the Darkspawn the way they do.  The evidence leads to the Taint itself as the cultprit (and what makes an old god go bad).

7 old gods==7 cycles and there are only two left.

Even if there weren't the blights are better than fighting against impossible odds against intelligent darkspawn that will not and CAN NOT coexist with humanity all the time.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

Oddly enough find the Old God is their only compulsion to go to the surface. I'm willing to bet that the Darkspawn prefer the underground otherwise they wouldn't all have remain there for over a 1000 years, only appearing during Blights and the odd raid.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And how is that a change from our current situation aside from the internal warfare amongst the Darkspawn? There are Darkspawn raids on the surface even before the awakening you know. With the awakening however they might actually do something useful and kill eachother off.

That's easy:

1.  The darkspawn for the most part are dumb between blights which makes the raids much easier to defeat.  It also gives the Dwarves a fighting chance if they'd ever get their act together (which under King Bhelen they finally do).

2.  The Call of the Old Gods entices the Darkspawn to spend most of their effect UNDERGROUND searching.  Without that, there would be constant warefar in the surface....and if you spare the architect it would happen with SMART darkspawn.

NOT an improvement unless you are a darkspawn yourself.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Oddly enough find the Old God is their only compulsion to go to the surface. I'm willing to bet that the Darkspawn prefer the underground otherwise they wouldn't all have remain there for over a 1000 years, only appearing during Blights and the odd raid.

The evidence indicates otherwise.  Riodan out and out says that it's the call of the Old Gods that keep the Darkspawn tunnelling and tunelling in the deep roads.  When a group of darkspawn awaken (see Mother), the first thing they did was set up camp and destroy the nearest part of the surface.

-Polaris