1316 réponses à ce sujet

[Layn]

IanPolaris wrote...

7 old gods==7 cycles and there are only two left.

Even if there weren't the blights are better than fighting against impossible odds against intelligent darkspawn that will not and CAN NOT coexist with humanity all the time.

-Polaris

yes, but what will happen AFTER? it might just as well be even worse than if the architect is let to awaken the darkspawn one by one and explain that war with the surface only gets them killed

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The call of the Old Gods are described as a cycle. Until the 7nth Blight has been dealt with and several centuries has pased to ensure nothing happens again, I have no reason to think that the seventh Blight will be the end of all Blights. Once a cycle reaches its end it restarts.. (Now I just hope you aren't one of those 2012 believers )

I do.  There are ONLY seven old gods and when a Grey Warden defeats an Archdemon (unless you took Morrigan's shortcut), that Old God is not only dead but destroyed forever (it's very soul is gone).  That was why Flemeth and Morrigan helped you to begin with.  They don't want all the Old Gods absolutely annhilated.  However there is NO EVIDENCE that it's the old gods that make the Darkspawn the way they do.  The evidence leads to the Taint itself as the cultprit (and what makes an old god go bad).

7 old gods==7 cycles and there are only two left.

Even if there weren't the blights are better than fighting against impossible odds against intelligent darkspawn that will not and CAN NOT coexist with humanity all the time.

-Polaris

Well, I've always looked at it more like 7 Old Gods--> 7 Eras of 1 cycle.

Anyway... The Surface world and the Darkspawn HAVE coexisted for over 1000 years, like it or not. For over 1000 years the Darkspawn have been known to exist and they havn't erradicated the Surface nor has the surface eradicated them. They have basicly eradicated the Dwarfs that's true, but the superior predator always eliminate the competetion of the habitat.
By coexisting I'm not asking them to move in next door. Just to exist, while we exist. Coexist.

On a side node: The Darkspawn would never want to eradicate nor ghoulify all of the Surface (and the Genlocks prolly wont do it to the dwarfs) since they are reliant on the surface to function, so they can breed.

[IanPolaris]

Crrash wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

7 old gods==7 cycles and there are only two left.

Even if there weren't the blights are better than fighting against impossible odds against intelligent darkspawn that will not and CAN NOT coexist with humanity all the time.

-Polaris

yes, but what will happen AFTER? it might just as well be even worse than if the architect is let to awaken the darkspawn one by one and explain that war with the surface only gets them killed

 There is no evidence that the darkspawn will awaken (and plenty of indications they will not) once the last old god is dead.    They will be a thread and have to be exterminated, but there is no evidence that there would be any mass awakening.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well, I've always looked at it more like 7 Old Gods--> 7 Eras of 1 cycle.

Anyway... The Surface world and the Darkspawn HAVE coexisted for over 1000 years, like it or not. For over 1000 years the Darkspawn have been known to exist and they havn't erradicated the Surface nor has the surface eradicated them. They have basicly eradicated the Dwarfs that's true, but the superior predator always eliminate the competetion of the habitat.
By coexisting I'm not asking them to move in next door. Just to exist, while we exist. Coexist.

On a side node: The Darkspawn would never want to eradicate nor ghoulify all of the Surface (and the Genlocks prolly wont do it to the dwarfs) since they are reliant on the surface to function, so they can breed.

1000 years in terms of ecology of a global scale is nothing but an eyeblink and for most of that 1000 years the only race with continual contact with the Darkspawn are the dwarves...and you just casually write them off as "acceptable losses".  Sorry if I fail to agree. 

The Darkspawn in habitates that are shared have PROVEN that are incompatible with humanity (specifically the Dwarves) and as such there is no reason not to destroy the darkspawn if possible and CERTAINLY every reason NOT to make it easier for the Darkspawn to take over the world.

Of course you've already proven you're on the side of the Darkspawn so futher discussion is probably moot.

-Polaris

Edit:  PS Just because the Darkspawn need Broodmothers to continue to exist does NOT imply they won't (try) to wipe out humanity anyway.  There is plenty of evidence even in the real world to the contrary.  Even if they do spare humanity it would only be as a cattle/slave/breedng stock which is just as bad (and in many ways worse).

Modifié par IanPolaris, 30 mars 2010 - 12:26 .

[Thor Rand Al]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Anyway... The Surface world and the Darkspawn HAVE coexisted for over 1000 years, like it or not. For over 1000 years the Darkspawn have been known to exist and they havn't erradicated the Surface nor has the surface eradicated them. They have basicly eradicated the Dwarfs that's true, but the superior predator always eliminate the competetion of the habitat.
By coexisting I'm not asking them to move in next door. Just to exist, while we exist. Coexist.

On a side node: The Darkspawn would never want to eradicate nor ghoulify all of the Surface (and the Genlocks prolly wont do it to the dwarfs) since they are reliant on the surface to function, so they can breed.

Because they know that in their condition they can't do it by themselves, hence why they seek out the Old God.  And trust me if there was a way to eradicate them then it would of been done by now.  Alistair will say that if you ask him why don't we just go down to where there at and just kill them.





Here's the thing.  These creatures unawakened know that they don't have a chance in hell to take the surface world by themselves so they seek out the Old God's.  At the same time this protects the surface world from their continuous attacks because they are searching for the Old God. 

Now here you have the Architect saying he wants to free his people from this compulsion to search for the Old God's, so he's found a concoction that not only free's them but makes them stronger, more intelligent and gives them free-will.  Here they go thinking hey maybe now we can take the surface world by ourselves without the Old God.  And bam they've gotten a big enough force to do it. 

Now here's the difference between having an ArchDemon leading them and 1 not.  What happens when an ArchDemon dies, the darkspawn go back to the underground, why, because the are automatically compelled to search out for the next Old God.

If they decide to invade again in their awakened state what's to keep them from going back to the underworld, nothing!!  And that's saying if we could even defeat them in their Awakened state.

[Addai]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well considering the other side is arguing: Oh well lets just sacrifice a couple of possibly million of lives, acres devastated farmland and a lot of tears for the hypothetical end of the Blights... If a few needs to be sacrificed for the many, then so be it. I would gladly let it be Grey Wardens bearing this sacrifice to save the commoners of the entire world.

You have no idea if this is what will happen, or if you are not creating a much bigger problem than the Blights:  Darkspawn who do not even need old gods in order to organize a complete invasion.  What you do know is that you'll be sacrificing a great deal of humanity to the taint, to becoming broodmothers, and to being the Architect's willing or unwilling lab rats.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Well I beg to differ. All that is known about the Darkspawn is from our point of view and based on pure assumptions mostly. I'm under the impression that the Darkspawn actually prefer the undergroudns and more or less accidently stumble across an Old God now and then. They are compelled to dig for it yes, but they are alos compelled to follow it to the surface.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well I beg to differ. All that is known about the Darkspawn is from our point of view and based on pure assumptions mostly. I'm under the impression that the Darkspawn actually prefer the undergroudns and more or less accidently stumble across an Old God now and then. They are compelled to dig for it yes, but they are alos compelled to follow it to the surface.

 
The first large group of darkspawn to awaken from the call under the Mother didn't wait a year to attack the surface in strength.

I'd call that a leading indicator at least....

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

Addai67 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well considering the other side is arguing: Oh well lets just sacrifice a couple of possibly million of lives, acres devastated farmland and a lot of tears for the hypothetical end of the Blights... If a few needs to be sacrificed for the many, then so be it. I would gladly let it be Grey Wardens bearing this sacrifice to save the commoners of the entire world.

You have no idea if this is what will happen, or if you are not creating a much bigger problem than the Blights:  Darkspawn who do not even need old gods in order to organize a complete invasion.  What you do know is that you'll be sacrificing a great deal of humanity to the taint, to becoming broodmothers, and to being the Architect's willing or unwilling lab rats.

And you don't do that by submitting the surface to more Blights? (Aside from the Architect's test subjects) How many women do you think was made into Broodmothers after Ostagar? I'd rather face an invasion of a few thousand Darkspawn than a Blight of several hundreds of thousands Darkspawn.

You don't have any idea wether or not I'm actually lessening the chance either. All that is certain is that I was willing to take the risk and you weren't.

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well I beg to differ. All that is known about the Darkspawn is from our point of view and based on pure assumptions mostly. I'm under the impression that the Darkspawn actually prefer the undergroudns and more or less accidently stumble across an Old God now and then. They are compelled to dig for it yes, but they are alos compelled to follow it to the surface.

 
The first large group of darkspawn to awaken from the call under the Mother didn't wait a year to attack the surface in strength.

I'd call that a leading indicator at least....

-Polaris

The Mother attacked the surface, Amaranthine in specific, for a very specific reason. She wanted to prevent "the father" from getting the Wardens and wanted to provoke the Wardens into killing her "The mother knows your ways, you won't let her live after what she's done", because she thought death was a release.

Her reasons for attacking the surface have nothing to do with survival (iindeed, she wanted to die) and it, being insane, is an anomaly. Her actions cannot be considered a leading indicator vis a vis what awakened and non-isane darkspawn would do.
 

[Costin_Razvan]

You don't have any idea wether or not I'm actually lessening the chance either. All that is certain is that I was willing to take the risk and you weren't.

And that is all it boils down to.

[BroBear Berbil]

I let him live and I felt dirty as soon as I did. I really felt like it was a huge mistake on my part. He pretty much confirmed that Archdemons are Old Gods which there had previously been speculation about whether that was true or not. I'd rather have the world deal with 2 more blights and be done with it than the prospect of awakened darkspawn because The Mother is a great example of how well that works out.

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well I beg to differ. All that is known about the Darkspawn is from our point of view and based on pure assumptions mostly. I'm under the impression that the Darkspawn actually prefer the undergroudns and more or less accidently stumble across an Old God now and then. They are compelled to dig for it yes, but they are alos compelled to follow it to the surface.

 
The first large group of darkspawn to awaken from the call under the Mother didn't wait a year to attack the surface in strength.

I'd call that a leading indicator at least....

-Polaris

The Mother attacked the surface, Amaranthine in specific, for a very specific reason. She wanted to prevent "the father" from getting the Wardens and wanted to provoke the Wardens into killing her "The mother knows your ways, you won't let her live after what she's done", because she thought death was a release.

Her reasons for attacking the surface have nothing to do with survival (iindeed, she wanted to die) and it, being insane, is an anomaly. Her actions cannot be considered a leading indicator vis a vis what awakened and non-isane darkspawn would do.
 

Given the behavior of ALL the rest of the disciples (Architect's or mothers....doesn't matter), it seems as though what we'd call insanity happens most of the time when Darkspawn awaken which isn't exactly a good recommendation for letting him live.  Certainly the only disciple that shows even a HINT of moral compass is the messenger and even then it can be argued strongly that he faked it for a long term ulterior pupose (to spread the taint which was the architect's original plan lest anyone forget...and there is no evidence that he's abandoned it...certainly he isn't sparing his associates from the taint).

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...
Given the behavior of ALL the rest of the disciples (Architect's or mothers....doesn't matter), it seems as though what we'd call insanity happens most of the time when Darkspawn awaken which isn't exactly a good recommendation for letting him live.  Certainly the only disciple that shows even a HINT of moral compass is the messenger and even then it can be argued strongly that he faked it for a long term ulterior pupose (to spread the taint which was the architect's original plan lest anyone forget...and there is no evidence that he's abandoned it...certainly he isn't sparing his associates from the taint).

No, only the Mother was visibly insane, the others weren't. They were ruthless perhaps, but not one showed signs of mental instability. The First, the Lost, the Herald, The Withered, the Messenger and the Seeker have not shown any signs of insanioty like the mother.

What we call "insanity" is pretty clear and the disciples don't qualify as insane, from what we have seen and know from them. Only the Mother is clearly and undoubtely insane.

[Ceridraen]

I thought she was hormonal, & that's what she's using in court!

[Thor Rand Al]

Okay all of this aside what about the new creatures that's being produced because of his awakenings. Those Children were definitely products of his Awakening experiment. And this was only a sample of what this Mother produced. Maker only know's what other experiment's he's concocted or can come up with. That alone can't be healthy for the surface.

[Ceridraen]

He did come off as a bit incompetent, didn't he? Too many 'oops' moments in his past. I was sure he'd be shown up as a devious, manipulative fiend in the end, but really, he just seemed like a bumbler. I killed him on one run through, spared him the next. That made a lot of people mad, so I'd go with the 'kill him' version. I never felt he was particularly bad, given the circumstances of his existence, but then, I wasn't sure the Mum was all that bad, either. Grotesque, yes, and hysterical, but she had her charms...

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Given the behavior of ALL the rest of the disciples (Architect's or mothers....doesn't matter), it seems as though what we'd call insanity happens most of the time when Darkspawn awaken which isn't exactly a good recommendation for letting him live.  Certainly the only disciple that shows even a HINT of moral compass is the messenger and even then it can be argued strongly that he faked it for a long term ulterior pupose (to spread the taint which was the architect's original plan lest anyone forget...and there is no evidence that he's abandoned it...certainly he isn't sparing his associates from the taint).

No, only the Mother was visibly insane, the others weren't. They were ruthless perhaps, but not one showed signs of mental instability. The First, the Lost, the Herald, The Withered, the Messenger and the Seeker have not shown any signs of insanioty like the mother.

What we call "insanity" is pretty clear and the disciples don't qualify as insane, from what we have seen and know from them. Only the Mother is clearly and undoubtely insane.

I don't know about that.  Both the First and especially the Lost seemed pretty far gone.  The messenger seemed sane enough but Withered didn't seem all there to me either.  For that matter neither does the architect (lack of empathy and the artichitect has this condition in spades is a form of insanity).

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...
I don't know about that.  Both the First and especially the Lost seemed pretty far gone.  The messenger seemed sane enough but Withered didn't seem all there to me either.  For that matter neither does the architect (lack of empathy and the artichitect has this condition in spades is a form of insanity).

-Polaris

How is the First insane? Because he was angry at being betrayed? If anything, that's a very "human" reaciton.
The Lost, maybe he was a bit histerical and over-excited. But comapred to the Mother, he is better off.
The Withered had no signs of insanity at all. He was calm and cool headed. AS for killing people in a keep, humans did that all the time.
And I do not believe the Architect is empathic. I think he genuinely cares about Utha and his people and does not show any signs of sadism. But that is up to interpretation.

Empathy is not necessarily equivalent to insanity. That was all my point. From what I have seen, only the Mother qualifies as insane.    

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 mars 2010 - 02:46 .

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
I don't know about that.  Both the First and especially the Lost seemed pretty far gone.  The messenger seemed sane enough but Withered didn't seem all there to me either.  For that matter neither does the architect (lack of empathy and the artichitect has this condition in spades is a form of insanity).

-Polaris

How is the First insane? Because he was angry at being betrayed? If anything, that's a very "human" reaciton.

Listen to his speech patterns again and his wording.  It think it's pretty clear when you hear the First, that he isn't "all there".  As your GW puts it, he isn't exactly "first" in his class.

The Lost, maybe he was a bit histerical and over-excited. But comapred to the Mother, he is better off.

That's a pretty low standard for sanity you've set there.

The Withered had no signs of insanity at all. He was calm and cool headed. AS for killing people in a keep, humans did that all the time.

You think that people have to be raving to be insane?  Some of the must insane and dangerous people in history have been almost exactly like withered.  It's called a lack of empahy.

And I do not believe the Architect is empathic. I think he genuinely cares about Utha and his people and does not show any signs of sadism. But that is up to interpretation.

Empathy is not necessarily equivalent to insanity. That was all my point. From what I have seen, only the Mother qualifies as insane.    

I strongly disagree.  Pretty much every psych text I've read says that to be mentally healthy (insane is a legal term), you have to show a certain minimum empathy towards others.  The architect lacks that.  Read the calling if you don't believe me.  He "cares" about Utha and Velanna's sister because he is using them.  Some of the least empathic (and mentally ill) people are extremely good at FAKING it to manipulate others.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

As an aside, I wish with regard to the Architect, that the game had given the Grey Warden some pressing and personal reason to let him live. I think it's pretty clear that in the long term, knocking up Morrigan with her "God Baby" is also probably a stupid and short-sighted thing to do (in this if nothing else, I think Logain if you ask him about it is right). However, in DAO, you have pressing personal reasons that override what might otherwise be the obviously better choice for humanity....specifically if you are romancing Alistair (for instance), it's the only way that the both of you can live and have a future together.

There is nothing like this for the Achitect. It seems blindingly obvious (at least to me) that saving/helping the architect "Reeks of Stupid" (to quote Sigrun) and I would have liked it if there were a personal reason to possibly ignore this. Honestly the architect (at least to my ears) is not terribly convincing esp given all he has done, and doesn't present his case very well even at the very end.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 30 mars 2010 - 02:58 .

[Ceridraen]

IanPolaris wrote...


You think that people have to be raving to be insane?  Some of the must insane and dangerous people in history have been almost exactly like withered.  It's called a lack of empahy.

I like that.  They're the scary ones, & always have been, because you can *think* they're making sense.  Not many people follow the likes of The Mum.  But people can be convinced by the 'sane' ones.

Sanity is over-rated...


eta:  about Morrigan's god-baby.  I actually trusted Morrigan - in a way - and believed she was basically an adherent to a pagan philosophy. So in some ways, she's more genuinely religious than, say, Leliana.  My mage was in agreement with her, for RP & *me* reasons, so that made sense.  Granted, the writers may take it a different way, but as I was playing it & reading it, it had the potential to be a good thing.  In my reading, the Chantry is quite bad & destructive - Morrigan is aiming at something before that.  And I was with her on that, if NOT on her method of getting there. (pick someone else's boyfriend next time!)

Modifié par Ceridraen, 30 mars 2010 - 03:00 .

[Meltemph]

I love how people are saying "We syhould try and work with them". As if completly ignoring how much that would screw over the Dwarfs chances to retake the Thaigs. Also, lets not forget that we really don't know a whole lot about this "treatment". All we know is that it requires darkspawn Gray Warden blood, but there has to be more to it to give a soulless/empty being a will of its own.

Remember that the only reason the archdemon needs to be killed with someone with the taint is because otherwise the soul of the archdemon travels to the nearest darkspawn due to them being a empty vessel.

On top of that, it was shown that intelligent darkspawn have the ability to control a rather large amount of darkspawn on his own, which means that they can start having their own personal, organized campaigns on settlements. Maybe smaller, but more frequent due to this. Also, let us not forget that they prefer to live underground where the Dwarfs are and they don't need More problems then they already have with the darkspawn. I mean their biggest problems are when there is not a blight. Last thing they need is a tactical leader at the helm of a thaig they are trying to take over.

Also, let us not forget that they also can corrupt the old gods, by finding him and all it would take is a few intelligent darkspawn to speed up the process of finding them. Also, you also have the fact that giving mothers free will obviously makes them insane or has a chance to, and the last thing you want is a crazy or intelligent and evil mother controlling things.

Outside of the whole rainbows lolipops and fuzzy bunnies feel from being nice to darkspawn and them able to say thank you, I dont see much of an upside.

Modifié par Meltemph, 30 mars 2010 - 03:11 .

[jones0901]

im getting tired of making this choice in bioware games...dont get me wrong i do love the games but; rachni, geth in ME2, architect....were treading the same water here

that being said i let him live, prolly no the best choice, but its a good gain vs risk question, plus i know that if he backslides my warden could deal on him

[NKKKK]

Morrigan's baby will help us.