There is one letter that i read of the Architects that for the most part made me actually think of him as an individual who cares for his men like i as commander of the Grey do. When you are on your way out of the mines and you stop at the Architects room, first it looks just like any other room in any other castle in Feraldin that i have been in. Books on the desk, a bed in the corner, and a note written to either Utha or Serrani, I have to paraphrase because i am at work, the letter expresses concern for either Utha or Serrani that they might be spending to much time under ground, he actually encourages them to seek day light. This is IMHO a sign of compassion, which is a sign of humanity, and as such earns him the right to live, end of story, unless you are exactly as ruthless, heartless, and lack compassion as a typical DS then i would put you down without question pink skin or not. It is like anything else, everyone is entitled to be judged upon thier own merits, not judged on what they may do, not judged on what YOU may think they will do but on what they have actually done. The Architect has done nothing worse than Loghain, in some plays some people let him live as well, is it because of the pink skin that he was given this gift, and yet to deny the same to someone else seems a bit hypocritical to me. Besides, from a meta game stand point i think it makes the story MUCH more interesting with a live Architect, from a in game perspective my wardens have become good judges of character, so far everyone who decided to trust, Zeveran, Loghain has proven that my trust was not misplaced. That is good enough for me, and if anyone of them betray that trust i will hunt them down and end them, that is my responsibility for that decision.
Asai
To those who spared the Architect...
Débuté par
tmelange
, mars 19 2010 10:49
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#1277
Posté 31 mars 2010 - 07:07
IanPolaris
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asaiasai wrote...
There is one letter that i read of the Architects that for the most part made me actually think of him as an individual who cares for his men like i as commander of the Grey do. When you are on your way out of the mines and you stop at the Architects room, first it looks just like any other room in any other castle in Feraldin that i have been in. Books on the desk, a bed in the corner, and a note written to either Utha or Serrani, I have to paraphrase because i am at work, the letter expresses concern for either Utha or Serrani that they might be spending to much time under ground, he actually encourages them to seek day light. This is IMHO a sign of compassion, which is a sign of humanity, and as such earns him the right to live, end of story, unless you are exactly as ruthless, heartless, and lack compassion as a typical DS then i would put you down without question pink skin or not. It is like anything else, everyone is entitled to be judged upon thier own merits, not judged on what they may do, not judged on what YOU may think they will do but on what they have actually done. The Architect has done nothing worse than Loghain, in some plays some people let him live as well, is it because of the pink skin that he was given this gift, and yet to deny the same to someone else seems a bit hypocritical to me. Besides, from a meta game stand point i think it makes the story MUCH more interesting with a live Architect, from a in game perspective my wardens have become good judges of character, so far everyone who decided to trust, Zeveran, Loghain has proven that my trust was not misplaced. That is good enough for me, and if anyone of them betray that trust i will hunt them down and end them, that is my responsibility for that decision.
Asai
You are released from prison by Velenna's sister who is working voluntarily for the Architect. What makes you think that the Architect doesn't WANT you to read that letter so you can assume that he is more "human-like" than he really is. If there is one thing that both DAA and The Calling make crystal clear is that the Architect is a suave, manipulative being who will do ANYTHING to get his own way.
Even if you are right and I'm not, it wouldn't matter. The Architect says nothing and offers nothing that would permit the Darkspawn to coexist with humanity. Darkspawn can't coexist with humanity but that's NOT because of the blights or the calling. It's because the Darkspawn need to steal (and violate) the females of humanity just to continue to breed AND they spread lethal taint to all living things just by proximity. Not only that but the actions of the Architect and his followers prove multiple times that you can not trust him and can not take him at his word.
Letting him live let alone allying with him as Sigrun says, "Reeks of Stupid"
-Polaris
#1278
Posté 31 mars 2010 - 07:26
Sarah1281
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I always found it rather strange that the Architect was concerned Utha wasn't getting enough fresh air given that she's a dwarf and most dwarves spend their entire lives underground. And it's simply not realistic saying that basically anyone who is not a sociopath deserves to live. I am, for God's sake, Howe told his children bedtime stories! Being nice to the people on your side is a good idea to keep them on your side and even people incapable of real compassoin could logically grasp that fact. The Architect may not have known much about other races but he needed Utha to be at least content or else she could leave and take her priceless easily-accessible and replenishing GW blood with her.Books on the desk, a bed in the corner, and a note written to either Utha or Serrani, I have to paraphrase because i am at work, the letter expresses concern for either Utha or Serrani that they might be spending to much time under ground, he actually encourages them to seek day light. This is IMHO a sign of compassion, which is a sign of humanity, and as such earns him the right to live, end of story, unless you are exactly as ruthless, heartless, and lack compassion as a typical DS then i would put you down without question pink skin or not.
#1279
Guest_vilnii_*
Posté 31 mars 2010 - 07:41
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What is wrong with these people....
Perhaps we need a power drill to drive home the message.
JUST STANDING NEXT TO THE ARCHITECT WILL KILL PEOPLE OKAY?
He has the Taint, it will kill you
Perhaps we need a power drill to drive home the message.
JUST STANDING NEXT TO THE ARCHITECT WILL KILL PEOPLE OKAY?
He has the Taint, it will kill you
Modifié par vilnii, 31 mars 2010 - 07:42 .
#1280
Posté 31 mars 2010 - 07:45
Thor Rand Al
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I have played DA:O MULTIPLE times and I've only let Loghain live once for the dang achievement. I don't care for him. That all aside the fact of seeing Cailan's body in RTO hung up like that really burns my arse to see Loghain and the Architect live. If not for the Architect trying to do his Joining the Old God wouldn't of been woken and if the Old God wouldn't of been woken the Blight would never of happened and Loghain would never of betrayed Cailan in Ostagar. And there never would of been a civil war, (but then there'd never of been a game lol.)
Technically all of this crap that's been happening points to 1 thing, the Architect. Because he's trying to do something that's just not meant to be. Him showing compassion if he is even capable of it it's only for his kind. He has no compassion for the surface world.
He's out for 1 thing and thats to help his own kind. The only reason why he even talks to us is because he needs us and he's hoping we won't go and hunt him down and kill him. So he makes us an offer. He needs the surface world for food and breeding, it's the only way they can survive. He needs Grey Wardens for blood so he can Awaken his brethren. If he didn't need those things do you really think we'd be given the time of day?
Technically all of this crap that's been happening points to 1 thing, the Architect. Because he's trying to do something that's just not meant to be. Him showing compassion if he is even capable of it it's only for his kind. He has no compassion for the surface world.
He's out for 1 thing and thats to help his own kind. The only reason why he even talks to us is because he needs us and he's hoping we won't go and hunt him down and kill him. So he makes us an offer. He needs the surface world for food and breeding, it's the only way they can survive. He needs Grey Wardens for blood so he can Awaken his brethren. If he didn't need those things do you really think we'd be given the time of day?
#1281
Posté 31 mars 2010 - 07:56
asaiasai
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If the taint is so dangerous as you say, then how come the wardens do not by thier infection with the taint infect the non wardens around them. I still have to say that going by the Origins example the taint is not as infrective as people make it out to be, my party members in Origins are covered in DS blood, fight DS on many occasions and NOT a single one of them has turned. The warden joining is so that they may master thier taint which makes the wardens not infective, so by the same logic the DS joining is so they will master thier taint, i believe that the DS who survive thier version of the joining are no longer a danger of spreading the taint, they have mastered it similar to the wardens. The DS who have not been freed or awakened still are a danger of spreading the taint, they are the danger, not the awakened. As far as having to force females from the other races to become brood mothers i do not believe this will be necessary as there are plenty of normal DS that he can choose from to put through his joining that brood mothers for the time being will not be necessary. Who is to say that with the joining and the associated changes that happen to normal wardens that in some way the DS will be able to breed with out brood mothers. The Architect has 2 willing femalse already in Serrani and Utha that there are two brood mothers for the time being. A willing broodmother free from the song of the old gods, combined with the Architect's version of the joining has a good chance of making DS that can be reasoned with, and as such they deserve an opportunity to live just like any dwarf, elf or human till such a time that any become unreasonable.
This whole worry about the situation to create brood mothers (the filter will not allow me to use the word so i have to dance around it), is nothing more than the typical female has to deal with from members of it's species, what because it is DS it is worse? The whole CE origin is based upon forcable sexual enocounters at the hands of human males, i think that is a greater crime because it serves no purpose than the gratification of a few bored indiviuals. That is not to say that i condone that treatment because the DS need to propigate i only show this as an indicator of how much like DS the other races all ready are. Judge everyone equally across the board, apply the same criteria, disregard race, and we see the similarities men are not so much different. I would have to carve a wide swath across Feraldin bringing my blade of justice to quite a few humans, elves and dwaves which would make me no different that the normal DS in certain circles, where as we have an opportunity to gain another ally in the next blight. Being as the blights are as detremental to the DS as it is to surface peoples we may be able to stall the next blight by disrupting the normal DS from thier endeavors to free the next old god. The dwarven Taigs could also gain some much needed assistance from the awakened, once they get over thier initial prejudice of course, against the normal DS. The possibilities are endless as to the value the awakened can offer one has to just willing to look for them, and most important take a leap of faith. Bioware has this way of rewarding the player for those leaps of faith and i think that by giving the player the opportunity to choose to leap makes it so much more interesting. Especially from a philophosiphical lets discuss it on the boards view point.
Asai
This whole worry about the situation to create brood mothers (the filter will not allow me to use the word so i have to dance around it), is nothing more than the typical female has to deal with from members of it's species, what because it is DS it is worse? The whole CE origin is based upon forcable sexual enocounters at the hands of human males, i think that is a greater crime because it serves no purpose than the gratification of a few bored indiviuals. That is not to say that i condone that treatment because the DS need to propigate i only show this as an indicator of how much like DS the other races all ready are. Judge everyone equally across the board, apply the same criteria, disregard race, and we see the similarities men are not so much different. I would have to carve a wide swath across Feraldin bringing my blade of justice to quite a few humans, elves and dwaves which would make me no different that the normal DS in certain circles, where as we have an opportunity to gain another ally in the next blight. Being as the blights are as detremental to the DS as it is to surface peoples we may be able to stall the next blight by disrupting the normal DS from thier endeavors to free the next old god. The dwarven Taigs could also gain some much needed assistance from the awakened, once they get over thier initial prejudice of course, against the normal DS. The possibilities are endless as to the value the awakened can offer one has to just willing to look for them, and most important take a leap of faith. Bioware has this way of rewarding the player for those leaps of faith and i think that by giving the player the opportunity to choose to leap makes it so much more interesting. Especially from a philophosiphical lets discuss it on the boards view point.
Asai
#1282
Posté 31 mars 2010 - 08:08
IanPolaris
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Several things:
1. When the wardens go through the joining they don't just drink darkspawn blood. That blood is specially processed to be much more potent than normal and (presumably though a magical ritual that involves quite a bit of lyrium) also isn't contagious (and takes much longer to ghoulify the warden). The point is that Grey Wardens AREN'T you typical ghouls and don't spread the taint around by proximity. Darkspawn of course do just that as seen multiple times in the game.
2. Yes evil people violate women. It happens unfortunately. However the very continuation and survival of the human species doesn't RELY on the forcible taking and violation of the females of humanity. The darkspawn of course DO rely on this and outbreed all the humanity by (at least) thousands to one.
It's not hard. The architect has to die.
-Polaris
1. When the wardens go through the joining they don't just drink darkspawn blood. That blood is specially processed to be much more potent than normal and (presumably though a magical ritual that involves quite a bit of lyrium) also isn't contagious (and takes much longer to ghoulify the warden). The point is that Grey Wardens AREN'T you typical ghouls and don't spread the taint around by proximity. Darkspawn of course do just that as seen multiple times in the game.
2. Yes evil people violate women. It happens unfortunately. However the very continuation and survival of the human species doesn't RELY on the forcible taking and violation of the females of humanity. The darkspawn of course DO rely on this and outbreed all the humanity by (at least) thousands to one.
It's not hard. The architect has to die.
-Polaris
#1283
Posté 31 mars 2010 - 08:22
Massadonious1
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Dwarves are incredibly biased (especially the Legion of the Dead) when it comes to Darkspawn.
I'm not sure Sigrun should be the voice of reason when it comes to contemplating genocide.
I'm not sure Sigrun should be the voice of reason when it comes to contemplating genocide.
#1284
Posté 31 mars 2010 - 08:29
Thor Rand Al
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A little reference about BroodMothers:
Broodmother: Tainted females of the surface species are affected differently from males, undergoing great pain and gross mutations, which cause most of them to perish. Those who survive, however, become the egg-laying broodmother's. These broadmother's spawn many infertile offspring at a time, over and over throughout their lifetime. One broodmother, in fact, can create thousands of darkspawn...and it is from these broodmothers that all darkspawn originate.
There's a whole thread about broodmothers you might want to read Asai. Very well could make you think twice about the whole thing
http://social.biowar.../index/988339/1
Broodmother: Tainted females of the surface species are affected differently from males, undergoing great pain and gross mutations, which cause most of them to perish. Those who survive, however, become the egg-laying broodmother's. These broadmother's spawn many infertile offspring at a time, over and over throughout their lifetime. One broodmother, in fact, can create thousands of darkspawn...and it is from these broodmothers that all darkspawn originate.
There's a whole thread about broodmothers you might want to read Asai. Very well could make you think twice about the whole thing
http://social.biowar.../index/988339/1
Modifié par Thor Rand Al, 31 mars 2010 - 08:29 .
#1285
Posté 31 mars 2010 - 08:36
IanPolaris
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Massadonious1 wrote...
Dwarves are incredibly biased (especially the Legion of the Dead) when it comes to Darkspawn.
I'm not sure Sigrun should be the voice of reason when it comes to contemplating genocide.
Gee, I wonder why? Might that be because of daily contact that the Legion of the Dead actually understand the Darkspawn better than anyone (perhaps even better than most Grey Wardens)?
Sigrun's basic reasoning ("Reeks of Stupid") seems sound enough to me. Given that Darkspawn PREY on Humanity (and must to survive) doing anything to make them more capable is a really, really stupid thing to do.
-Polaris
#1286
Posté 31 mars 2010 - 08:39
asaiasai
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IanPolaris wrote...
Several things:
1. When the wardens go through the joining they don't just drink darkspawn blood. That blood is specially processed to be much more potent than normal and (presumably though a magical ritual that involves quite a bit of lyrium) also isn't contagious (and takes much longer to ghoulify the warden). The point is that Grey Wardens AREN'T you typical ghouls and don't spread the taint around by proximity. Darkspawn of course do just that as seen multiple times in the game.
2. Yes evil people violate women. It happens unfortunately. However the very continuation and survival of the human species doesn't RELY on the forcible taking and violation of the females of humanity. The darkspawn of course DO rely on this and outbreed all the humanity by (at least) thousands to one.
It's not hard. The architect has to die.
-Polaris
When do we see the taint being spread around by proximity, i have several party members from Origins that still are suffering no ill effects from exposure to DS blood. Many many encounters, covered many times in DS blood from head to toe and yet Leliana is still happily shopping for shoes. How about no mention of problems with any of the non warden guards left in the Vigil contracting sickness during Awakenings, no i do not buy this "Awakened are infective" argument, and a few isolated cases in the woods do not out weight the many Origins characters, the keep guards, who were exposed on numerous occasions to DS blood to no ill effect. Sorry it does not wash.
Asai
#1287
Posté 31 mars 2010 - 08:40
Massadonious1
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"Daily contact" doesn't imply understanding. It only implies that they've fought a lot of them.
Sigrun has never seen a Darkspawn that talks or wants to accomplish what the Architect hopes to accomplish. "Darkspawn = bad, therefore, Darkspawn = dead" was all that I got out of her quote.
Sigrun has never seen a Darkspawn that talks or wants to accomplish what the Architect hopes to accomplish. "Darkspawn = bad, therefore, Darkspawn = dead" was all that I got out of her quote.
Modifié par Massadonious1, 31 mars 2010 - 08:40 .
#1288
Posté 31 mars 2010 - 08:42
IanPolaris
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asaiasai wrote...
When do we see the taint being spread around by proximity, i have several party members from Origins that still are suffering no ill effects from exposure to DS blood. Many many encounters, covered many times in DS blood from head to toe and yet Leliana is still happily shopping for shoes. How about no mention of problems with any of the non warden guards left in the Vigil contracting sickness during Awakenings, no i do not buy this "Awakened are infective" argument, and a few isolated cases in the woods do not out weight the many Origins characters, the keep guards, who were exposed on numerous occasions to DS blood to no ill effect. Sorry it does not wash.
Asai
Your partymembers were originally (as I understand it) also supposed to become Grey Wardens. As it is, the reason your DAO partymembers (other than fellow Warden Alistair) don't suffer is due to the magic of Bioware. If you listen to the soldiers and the Drill Sergeant in the Camp at Ostagar, he makes it VERY plain that the men aren't supposed to even touch a Grey Warden Corpse or handle it's blood since "getting the taint means you're as good as gone". We see that theme repeated by the Kennel Master and the Mbari Hounds. We see the taint and it's spread all through DAO. In DAA, Velanna's sister clearly suffers just by being in proximity and the game makes it very clear (as does the epilog if you let the messenger live) that the Darkspawn can and do spread the taint by simply proximity.
-Polaris
#1289
Posté 31 mars 2010 - 08:45
Layn
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i need yo quote myself.vilnii wrote...
I felt the need to quote myself to get this confusion back on track.
There can be no negotiating with Darkspawn!
things have changed!
then.... don't stand next to him!vilnii wrote...
What is wrong with these people....
Perhaps
we need a power drill to drive home the message.
JUST STANDING
NEXT TO THE ARCHITECT WILL KILL PEOPLE OKAY?
He has the Taint, it
will kill you
it's not like darkspawn and the rest have to live together.
and i've asked this before: If the taint is so instantaneous and all, why do normal armies also fight against them without being worried about getting tainted? Everyone told Cailan not to fight at Duncans side, because he could die, but not because he could get tainted, whys that?
Modifié par Crrash, 31 mars 2010 - 08:48 .
#1290
Posté 31 mars 2010 - 08:46
IanPolaris
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Massadonious1 wrote...
"Daily contact" doesn't imply understanding. It only implies that they've fought a lot of them.
Sigrun has never seen a Darkspawn that talks or wants to accomplish what the Architect hopes to accomplish. "Darkspawn = bad, therefore, Darkspawn = dead" was all that I got out of her quote.
She is dead right about that as well. The only good Darkspawn is a dead one. Darkspawn can not coexist with humanity. The Architect is a darkspawn and ultimately doesn't give a rat's posterior about you, the Grey Wardens, or humanity except in so far as they serve darkspawn interests as he sees them. Read The Calling. This is make brutally clear. The Architect there tried to engage in genocide against humanithy and I see no remorse and no reason to think he's any different in DAA (and his actions towards Vigil keep by his subordinate Withered and his capture and experimentation on you and your fellow wardens is prime evidence that he hasn't changed at all since The Calling).
-Polaris
#1291
Posté 31 mars 2010 - 08:46
Vicious
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The 'good' companions all want The Architect dead for obvious reasons. Yes, Anders is included, since he is obviously a good guy of the chaotic variety.
The more 'morally grey' companions want The Architect to live for pragmatic reasons.
As for Oghren, well I think he just doesn't give a damn about the Dwarves anymore.
Sigrun [and i think Justice] will actually go so far as to try to kill you if you side with The Architect and fail persuade checks. Yes, they truly believe he should die. That to me is The Architect doing his little mind games right there, like he did to Bregan - except on the main character.
That said, the Darkspawn are PARASITES. Their taint is a disease that kills. Conventional morality simply can not apply when it comes to Darkspawn. Unfortunately, that means that one cannot consider their newfound 'awakening' because it doesn't matter. They are the predators and we are the prey. There is no negotiation with nature.
I have no more sympathy for them than Salk had for the Polio virus.
The more 'morally grey' companions want The Architect to live for pragmatic reasons.
As for Oghren, well I think he just doesn't give a damn about the Dwarves anymore.
Sigrun [and i think Justice] will actually go so far as to try to kill you if you side with The Architect and fail persuade checks. Yes, they truly believe he should die. That to me is The Architect doing his little mind games right there, like he did to Bregan - except on the main character.
That said, the Darkspawn are PARASITES. Their taint is a disease that kills. Conventional morality simply can not apply when it comes to Darkspawn. Unfortunately, that means that one cannot consider their newfound 'awakening' because it doesn't matter. They are the predators and we are the prey. There is no negotiation with nature.
I have no more sympathy for them than Salk had for the Polio virus.
Modifié par Vicious, 31 mars 2010 - 08:52 .
#1292
Posté 31 mars 2010 - 08:47
IanPolaris
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Crrash wrote...
then.... don't stand next to him!
it's not like darkspawn and the rest have to live together.
You're right. We can and should kill them. Otherwise the Darkspawn will PREY on humanity (they must just to procreate) and that means we can not let them be if at all possibly and it certainly means we can not let them get better at PREYING on us either.
-Polaris
#1293
Posté 31 mars 2010 - 08:58
Massadonious1
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Well, I've been reading this thread since I last left it at around page 26, so I know you've had plenty of discussion about the song, so I wont go there.
I just simply think it's more complicated that what you are making it out to be. I would of happily been on board if the Darkspawn's story stopped evolving at the end of Origins. Potential annihilation = bad. I get that.
But, Awakenings changes things. I don't trust the Architect as far as I could throw him, but I can't help but think that a world free from future blights and possible coexistence might be worth fighting for.
And besides, it's not like we don't know where he hangs out. If his plan fails, I'll just find him and Sparta-stab him in the eyes or something.
I just simply think it's more complicated that what you are making it out to be. I would of happily been on board if the Darkspawn's story stopped evolving at the end of Origins. Potential annihilation = bad. I get that.
But, Awakenings changes things. I don't trust the Architect as far as I could throw him, but I can't help but think that a world free from future blights and possible coexistence might be worth fighting for.
And besides, it's not like we don't know where he hangs out. If his plan fails, I'll just find him and Sparta-stab him in the eyes or something.
#1294
Posté 31 mars 2010 - 08:59
asaiasai
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Run and live in fear all of you, the sky is falling THE SKY IS FALLING! I can only base my decisions on what information the game offers so when you pull out books or comics you have information that is not redily avaliable to some of us. I am basing my decision in the game on the information that is avaliable from the game and no place else, i wanted to discuss the game not the books or comics. As such i will retire from this thread. But for the record you will never convince me you are right and fortunatly i get to make the decisions i want to as opposed to the ones you make which tickles me pink.
Asai
Asai
#1295
Posté 31 mars 2010 - 09:03
IanPolaris
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Massadonious1 wrote...
And besides, it's not like we don't know where he hangs out. If his plan fails, I'll just find him and Sparta-stab him in the eyes or something.
You don't know where the architect hangs out. You know where he WAS for a while, but passing up the one opportunity to STOP the architect from doing any more damage like starting two more blights like he did the last time is a really, really stupid thing to do.
Letting the architect go increases not decreases humanity's peril and the chances for more blights considering he started the last one and considering he knows where the last to old gods are.
-Polaris
#1296
Posté 31 mars 2010 - 09:31
Silent X
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I killed him. Here is my reasoning:
As others have pointed out, the relationship of the darkspawn to other races is parasitic. Their proximity spreads plague, they eat the other races, and they cannot reproduce without them.
Yes, stopping the blights would be good, but at what cost? Hordes of intelligent darkspawn who may or may not choose to follow the Architect, who may or may not in fact be benevolent toward the other races? I think, on the whole, that sounds like trading a severe but quantified problem for an unknown and potentially much worse one.
I honestly get the feeling that what this argument really boils down to is whether or not we like the Architect too much to kill him. I may be mistaken about that, but reading the arguments of people who decided to spare him, the main feeling that I'm getting is that people didn't want to kill him because they sympathized with him--unless, of course, they forged what they always intended to be a very temporary alliance with him against the common enemy presented by the Mother, with the assumption that they would return to deal with him sometime after dealing with her--which is a different matter entirely.
So, to be absolutely clear: I sympathized with the Architect. And I don't think he's evil in any objective sense. He can't help that he's a darkspawn. All he's doing is trying to help his own people. That's not an evil motivation. It's very noble. But his people's best interests are inimical to those of my people (and for the purposes of this argument, "my people" includes every human, dwarf, and elf in Thedas). All the evidence I've ever encountered in the world of Dragon Age tells me that the darkspawn cannot co-exist peacefully with the other races. They must prey on us in order to survive and thrive.
When I encountered the Architect in the final sequence of events, I heard him out. I very much doubted he would say anything to convince me to side with him, but I let him say his piece, and he offered no substantive argument as to how his people and mine could co-exist. He offered no alternative to the creation of broodmothers, nor did he promise that the darkspawn would create their own kingdom somewhere far away from everybody else.
Allying with him solely for the sake of stopping the Blights strikes me as very short-sighted--the darkspawn would still be inimical to all other life. And to me it sounds a lot like, "Hey, let's just foist the whole darkspawn problem on the dwarves."
There were a couple of other reasons I wouldn't ally with him. Firstly, if I let him go on faith and he and his followers caused more suffering to humans, dwarves, and elves (which strikes me as inevitable), I would feel personally responsible, because I could have prevented it.
And, finally: Honor.
As I said above, I don't think the Architect is evil. He is trying to be a hero to his people. He had the courage and decency to meet me face-to-face and try to negotiate with me. The least I could do in return is be forthright in my turn. I didn't feel right about allying with him against the Mother and then turning around and stabbing him in the back. He deserved better than that.
He was trying to do what was right for his people. But what is best for his people is plague, rape, and death to my people. I would not ask him to betray his people, but I could not help his people without betraying my own. And I could never do that. I must do what is best for my kind as surely as he must do what is best for his.
So I told him that I must kill him, met him openly in battle, and slew him. With sorrow, but without regret.
The thought of it still makes me a little sad. He was, by any reasonable measure, a good man. But our interests were and always would be diametrically opposed. If he knew of a way that could change, I have to assume he would have told me. It would have been idiotic not to, and he was clearly not an idiot.
Killing him makes me feel a little guilty, but sparing him would make me feel worse. There is no doubt in my mind that I did what I had to do. But I think this dilemma is the most powerful of the game: Will you--can you--kill someone who's really not a bad person, because you know their actions will almost certainly bring great harm to your people?
From a moral standpoint, that's the toughest choice I've had to make in Dragon Age. Feeling wrong for doing the right thing. But I stand by my decision, and I will live the consequences.
As others have pointed out, the relationship of the darkspawn to other races is parasitic. Their proximity spreads plague, they eat the other races, and they cannot reproduce without them.
Yes, stopping the blights would be good, but at what cost? Hordes of intelligent darkspawn who may or may not choose to follow the Architect, who may or may not in fact be benevolent toward the other races? I think, on the whole, that sounds like trading a severe but quantified problem for an unknown and potentially much worse one.
I honestly get the feeling that what this argument really boils down to is whether or not we like the Architect too much to kill him. I may be mistaken about that, but reading the arguments of people who decided to spare him, the main feeling that I'm getting is that people didn't want to kill him because they sympathized with him--unless, of course, they forged what they always intended to be a very temporary alliance with him against the common enemy presented by the Mother, with the assumption that they would return to deal with him sometime after dealing with her--which is a different matter entirely.
So, to be absolutely clear: I sympathized with the Architect. And I don't think he's evil in any objective sense. He can't help that he's a darkspawn. All he's doing is trying to help his own people. That's not an evil motivation. It's very noble. But his people's best interests are inimical to those of my people (and for the purposes of this argument, "my people" includes every human, dwarf, and elf in Thedas). All the evidence I've ever encountered in the world of Dragon Age tells me that the darkspawn cannot co-exist peacefully with the other races. They must prey on us in order to survive and thrive.
When I encountered the Architect in the final sequence of events, I heard him out. I very much doubted he would say anything to convince me to side with him, but I let him say his piece, and he offered no substantive argument as to how his people and mine could co-exist. He offered no alternative to the creation of broodmothers, nor did he promise that the darkspawn would create their own kingdom somewhere far away from everybody else.
Allying with him solely for the sake of stopping the Blights strikes me as very short-sighted--the darkspawn would still be inimical to all other life. And to me it sounds a lot like, "Hey, let's just foist the whole darkspawn problem on the dwarves."
There were a couple of other reasons I wouldn't ally with him. Firstly, if I let him go on faith and he and his followers caused more suffering to humans, dwarves, and elves (which strikes me as inevitable), I would feel personally responsible, because I could have prevented it.
And, finally: Honor.
As I said above, I don't think the Architect is evil. He is trying to be a hero to his people. He had the courage and decency to meet me face-to-face and try to negotiate with me. The least I could do in return is be forthright in my turn. I didn't feel right about allying with him against the Mother and then turning around and stabbing him in the back. He deserved better than that.
He was trying to do what was right for his people. But what is best for his people is plague, rape, and death to my people. I would not ask him to betray his people, but I could not help his people without betraying my own. And I could never do that. I must do what is best for my kind as surely as he must do what is best for his.
So I told him that I must kill him, met him openly in battle, and slew him. With sorrow, but without regret.
The thought of it still makes me a little sad. He was, by any reasonable measure, a good man. But our interests were and always would be diametrically opposed. If he knew of a way that could change, I have to assume he would have told me. It would have been idiotic not to, and he was clearly not an idiot.
Killing him makes me feel a little guilty, but sparing him would make me feel worse. There is no doubt in my mind that I did what I had to do. But I think this dilemma is the most powerful of the game: Will you--can you--kill someone who's really not a bad person, because you know their actions will almost certainly bring great harm to your people?
From a moral standpoint, that's the toughest choice I've had to make in Dragon Age. Feeling wrong for doing the right thing. But I stand by my decision, and I will live the consequences.
#1297
Posté 31 mars 2010 - 09:33
Efesell
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Anything new worth catching up on here.
Or we still just have "I spared him!" "Sigrun was right" going back and forth.
Or we still just have "I spared him!" "Sigrun was right" going back and forth.
#1298
Posté 31 mars 2010 - 10:09
IanPolaris
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Silent X,
Well said. I do not regard the Architect as evil. Quite the contrary. I think he is a person who will do whatever it takes to help his people (the darkspawn) as he sees it using whatever means are necessary. In a lot of ways, I regard him as a dark reflection (or Darkspawn reflection) of the Grey Wardens themselves.
That's what makes him such a tragic figure in my eyes. Contrary to what some may think, I don't slaver at the idea of killing darkspawn just because. I do so because it is necessary for my people (humanity all inclusive) to survive and because in the end for humanity to survive, the Darkspawn can not.
Had the architect been able to show or convince me that this ultimate dynamic had changed, my decision would be different....but he either could not or would not. That doesn't mean I regard the Architect as honorable. I think the Architect is willing to do whatever it takes to help his "people" and that includes manipulation, experiementation, lying, ect....but in fairness the Grey Wardens themselves aren't so different.
Just because I have no qualms killing the Architect does not mean I can't regard him as a tragic figure. I do. However, that did not and should not stay any hands.
-Polaris
Well said. I do not regard the Architect as evil. Quite the contrary. I think he is a person who will do whatever it takes to help his people (the darkspawn) as he sees it using whatever means are necessary. In a lot of ways, I regard him as a dark reflection (or Darkspawn reflection) of the Grey Wardens themselves.
That's what makes him such a tragic figure in my eyes. Contrary to what some may think, I don't slaver at the idea of killing darkspawn just because. I do so because it is necessary for my people (humanity all inclusive) to survive and because in the end for humanity to survive, the Darkspawn can not.
Had the architect been able to show or convince me that this ultimate dynamic had changed, my decision would be different....but he either could not or would not. That doesn't mean I regard the Architect as honorable. I think the Architect is willing to do whatever it takes to help his "people" and that includes manipulation, experiementation, lying, ect....but in fairness the Grey Wardens themselves aren't so different.
Just because I have no qualms killing the Architect does not mean I can't regard him as a tragic figure. I do. However, that did not and should not stay any hands.
-Polaris
#1299
Posté 31 mars 2010 - 10:52
Layn
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you know, i'd agree with you. yes darkspawn have been parasitic so far, but the architects ambition is to avoid any more conflict with the surface. the blight only is his immediate worry because thats the most devastating time for both sides. And he is aware that we won't tolerate taint on the surface, hence his initial plan of grey warding everyone one the surface (which i didn't even know about). He'll try to find a way to stop darkspawn from attacking surfacers (and dwarves)
i think its good to have an individual with such intentions among the darkspawn, with his own followers, when i'm pretty sure (but yes, there is no absolute proof) that more awakened darkspawn will show up anyway the more we near the last blight.
of course, the architect has a real sucky track record. So yeah maybe it's better to kill him before he accidentally starts the last two blights simultaneously and then tries to contact weisshaupt while being hunted by a horde of angry awakened darkspawn which then take the opportunity to kill every grey warden they come across. and suddenly his newest failed awakened ogre experiment appears and turns out to be crazy powerful. and then everybodys dead.
that indeed would be bad.
i think its good to have an individual with such intentions among the darkspawn, with his own followers, when i'm pretty sure (but yes, there is no absolute proof) that more awakened darkspawn will show up anyway the more we near the last blight.
of course, the architect has a real sucky track record. So yeah maybe it's better to kill him before he accidentally starts the last two blights simultaneously and then tries to contact weisshaupt while being hunted by a horde of angry awakened darkspawn which then take the opportunity to kill every grey warden they come across. and suddenly his newest failed awakened ogre experiment appears and turns out to be crazy powerful. and then everybodys dead.
that indeed would be bad.
Modifié par Crrash, 31 mars 2010 - 10:54 .
#1300
Posté 31 mars 2010 - 11:39
EmperorSahlertz
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Why would the Architect go back to an experiment which clearly prooved to be a failure? The Archdemon prooved to be immune to his awakening, why would he try again?
He sent his Darkspawn to kill the Broodmothers of Kal'Hirrol not to capture and retry his "Project Mother" experiment, which shows that he learns from mistakes.
He sent his Darkspawn to kill the Broodmothers of Kal'Hirrol not to capture and retry his "Project Mother" experiment, which shows that he learns from mistakes.
