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[Stabbath123]

Same actor that did Duncan's voice did Architect's? They sound alike.



I let architect and messenger live. They wanted to fight evil, and weren't evil. They helped me. If I have to fight them later, so be it. This game was way too easy. Hope they are uber darkspawn and all orange. Tired of one hit splatting 100s of lamespawn.

[Efesell]

Same actor that did Duncan's voice did Architect's? They sound alike.

No, but that would be wonderfully ironic.

[Efesell]

Er.. okay?

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why would the Architect go back to an experiment which clearly prooved to be a failure? The Archdemon prooved to be immune to his awakening, why would he try again?

To try again, and "get it right this time"?  Honestly if the architect is the researcher that he is protrayed to be, he would want to try again after trying to determine what went wrong.  For a creature likethe architect, he'd write off the blight as "collateral damage".

He sent his Darkspawn to kill the Broodmothers of Kal'Hirrol not to capture and retry his "Project Mother" experiment, which shows that he learns from mistakes.

He send his darkspawn to end the Mother's threat.  I do agree that he would be willing to kill those Broodmothers to do so.  However, it is by no means guaranteed that he might not wish to capture one or two to "try again".  After all, he did it with Grey Wardens that he supposedly was trying to negotiate with.

-Polaris

[Basher of Glory]

If I understood correctly, then he is very old measured by human standards.
Now, for a "researcher" his argument "I don't understand the ways of your kind" (paraphrased; he said that to my warden before the final fight started) seems to be poor.
Wouldn't a serious researcher and/or the future leader of a "new race" do anything to understand his current enemies and perhaps future allies?
For me that was an evidence that he is either ignorant to anything beyond the needs of his own people or simply too dense, kind of an idiot savant.

Modifié par Baher of Glory, 31 mars 2010 - 05:33 .

[Layn]

Baher of Glory wrote...

Wouldn't a serious researcher and/or the future leader of a "new race" do anything to understand his current enemies and perhaps future allies?
For me that was an evidence that he is either ignorant to anything beyond the needs of his own people or simply too dense, kind of an idiot savant.

he doesn't want to be a leader, and he tried to learn about us the best way he knew how: by experimenting.
and honestly, it's not easy to figure us out. imagine he was observing alistair and morrigan. He wouldn't get to any conclusions at all about how we are. And then he looks at Sten, and yet again something completely different.

and sure, he's got Utha, but it's not like she can tell him anything

[Shiranui]

tmelange wrote...

Going to do one more playthrough and figured I'd ask for some feedback on the Architect storyline, since I can't seem to find a good reason in my own mind to spare him.

So just curious--who spared the Architect and why?

Personally, I didn't think it was a rational option under any circumstances for humanity to come to any sort of accord with the darkspawn or the Architect. It was clear to me that the Architect's interference led to the darkspawn not retreating upon the death of the old god, and resulted in continued human devastation, the deaths of thousands, and of dozens of wardens. It seemed clear to me that the darkspawn are very like vampires, parasitical and requiring humans for sustainence, breeding and acclimation, and as a result, an accord would be...untenable in fact. Thus, the argument that the darkspawn are somehow enslaved to the song of the old gods, and need to be freed (the slavery hook) so they can evolve, and the notion that the warden blood needed to free the darkspawn is analogous to the grey warden ritual wasn't compelling. 

I think the one thing they missed out on, however, was having the captured wardens being kept alive to provide this massive amount of blood they would need to convert darkspawn-dom. A dead warden supplies only a finite amount of blood. It would have been interesting to effect this rescue, and it also supplies a way for Duncan to be alive still. LOL (Keep hope ALIVE)

Anyway, what were you thinking when you spared the Architect?

I suspect a possesed Duncan in DA2, seeing as his body wasn't in Ostagar. Could be an interesting boss fight/encounter.

[Efesell]

Duncan the shambling corpse.

That WOULD make a fine ending to the silly speculation that he's somehow still alive.

[Sarah1281]

That all aside the fact of seeing Cailan's body in RTO hung up like that really burns my arse to see Loghain and the Architect live.

I usually let Loghain live but taking him back to Ostagar really pisses me off. Isn't it enough that he left Cailan to die for his foolishness? Is it really necessary to leave him for the wolves, too? Besides, if the darkspawn come back quickly enough then they might be able to reclaim their 'trophy'. Burning him is just pragmatic and that's how I'd gotten the impression that all human dead is burned so it has nothing to do with him being a King.

If the taint is so dangerous as you say, then how come the wardens do not by thier infection with the taint infect the non wardens around them. I still have to say that going by the Origins example the taint is not as infrective as people make it out to be, my party members in Origins are covered in DS blood, fight DS on many occasions and NOT a single one of them has turned.

Plot immunity will not protect the common people of Ferelden. Leliana, Sten, ect. are immune for the same reason Jowan's story feels unresolved: it was cut.

A willing broodmother free from the song of the old gods, combined with the Architect's version of the joining has a good chance of making DS that can be reasoned with, and as such they deserve an opportunity to live just like any dwarf, elf or human till such a time that any become unreasonable.

I disagree strongly. To begin with, I refuse to believe that anyone in their right mid would consent to becoming a Broodmother. The process, while not described in graphic detail, sounds horrific and we don't know that Utha and Seranni (who I'm also not convinced are in their right minds) would consent to that. After all, there's a difference between supporting the Architect's work and becoming a Broodmother yourself. I'm sure there were plenty of female Wardens who, for whatever reason, are rooting for the Architect. Are they volunteering to turn into a Broodmther? Besides, unless you're suggesting that insanity changes the species of one's offspring, the reason the Mother had the Children instead of hurlocks/genlocks/shieks/ogres like everyone else is most likely a result of the process of 'awakening.'

This whole worry about the situation to create brood mothers (the filter will not allow me to use the word so i have to dance around it), is nothing more than the typical female has to deal with from members of it's species, what because it is DS it is worse?

...So because some men (and women though not shown in the game) are monsters that means we should be okay with the darkspawn turning women into Broodmothers? Vaughan (and his friends in CE origin) can be killed and no one denies that he had it coming. What the darkspawn do is worse because, while extremely unlikely, the day could come where non-darkspawn didn't do that. As long as darkspawn exist, it will be necessary for them to continue their race. Not to mention that that's only part of the process. The Broodmothers-to-be also have to eat the tainted flesh of the dead and God only knows what else. And it will never, ever stop as long as the darkspawn still exist.

The dwarven Taigs could also gain some much needed assistance from the awakened, once they get over thier initial prejudice of course, against the normal DS.

Oh, so the awakend darkspawn are saints now? They'll be willing to give up the land that they fought and won? And for what? Because the dwarves want them to?

Dwarves are incredibly biased (especially the Legion of the Dead) when it comes to Darkspawn. I'm not sure Sigrun should be the voice of reason when it comes to contemplating genocide.

Why not? The dwarves are biased but they are biased for a very good reason: the darkspawn nearly annihilated their entire population. They had an Empire and now they just have two cities that are barely even connected. They are dying a slow, painful death because of the darkspawn and their inability to get over themselves long enough to deal with the problem (seriously, are the Aeducans the only ones that ever take the darkspawn seriously?) and Sigrun has seen this. If the Old Gods weren't compelling the darkspawn to search for them underground they could very well come to the surface and destroy a good portion of the human race. Would it be unreasonable for, say, Nahaniel and Anders to not want to help out the Architect then? There is nothing wrong with putting the needs of your race above the needs of someone ele's race.

He send his darkspawn to end the Mother's threat. I do agree that he would be willing to kill those Broodmothers to do so.

I don't think those Broodmothers were 'awakened'. They looked just like Laryn in the first game (except a different color but that could mean they were once elves or humans instead of dwarves or it might have been the lighting) and the Mother looked quite different. Besides, as crazy as she was, her followers seemed to except her as their leader because she was a Broodmother. If she 'awakened' the othes than she might have competition for leadership and they might not agree with her plan to kill the Architect and attack the surface. And do the Mother or her followers even know how to 'awaken' someone, let alone would they do it gien that their whole point is they DON'T appreciate being 'awoken' themselves.

[Amias666]

My apologize, I only read the first few pages of this conversation, as I didnt feel like reading all 53 pages of this thread.

I let the architect live, for a couple of reasons.

First reason being my character generally believes in redemption, sometimes at my companions dismay. All things deserve a second chance, even if they bit you in the ass atleast you gave them the opportunity to do what is right. Where as if you kill them then you never know if they were capable of doing what is right.

Second reason being he said he had a way to end the blights and ending the cycle. I dont know what the world will be like in 400 years or whenever the next blight comes, my character certaintly wont be around to make sure the archdemon is killed. I dont know if the grey wardens will even be around. Most likely they will, as they have survived this long, but again I dont know. If there is a chance that the blight wont happen, whatever it takes, countless lives, I doubt the cost will be as great as facing a blight with no grey wardens to stop it. 

Third reason I had Nathaniel with me, and he seemed to believe siding with the Architect was a good idea. As he was my favorite companion (Odd seeing as my character is a HFN and his father murdered my family) I listened to him, even though I also had Anders and Justice telling me letting him live was too dangerous.

As well in Origins I made the deal with Moriggan to survive killing the archdemon, creating what possibly might be an old god. I figured if I had done a questionable act by agreeing to such an act, I might as well do the questionable and let the architect live.

As many have said, freeing a darkspawn appears cut off its ability to be able to listen to and find the old gods. Sure some go insane, like the mother, but all in all I dont see how the mother was anywhere near the threat of the blight.

The forces that attacked amerethine and the vigils keep seemed to be nowhere near that which attacked Ostagar or Denerim. And the only reason they caused so much damage is they were attacking an area that didnt have that much military force to begin with. If the mother had attacked denerim I doubt so much loss would have happened.

As for whether or not bringing intelligent species that brings the taint with it into the world is a good idea, I dont know. But I certaintly would rather face an intelligent species then a mindless one. The darkspawn we are used to facing outside of blights seems to little more then mindless husks, little more then animals. Granted that means they unorganized, but also chaotic. Atleast if you are facing an intelligent enemy you know what to expect for the most part. And since the intelligent darkspawn dont seem that intelligent, they are likely to make mistakes.

And so what if all the darkspawn cant be converted and the intelligent darkspawn turn against the humans? For the moment grey wardens are respected throughout Fereldan, and lore suggest have strong forces elsewhere. If the darkspawn continue to pester the world in a way that is noticeable for say the next 400 years until the next blight the wardens wont be forgotten like they were before the one experienced in Origins.

[Sarah1281]

First reason being my character generally believes in redemption, sometimes at my companions dismay. All things deserve a second chance, even if they bit you in the ass atleast you gave them the opportunity to do what is right. Where as if you kill them then you never know if they were capable of doing what is right.

He had several opportunities. In fact, you could say he got his chance for redemption after he wasn't killed in the Calling and what did he do? Start a Blight and unleash insane darkspawn upon Amaranthine. Is it enough that he had a chance and blew it or do you need to personally give everyone a chance for redemption?

Second reason being he said he had a way to end the blights and ending the cycle. I dont know what the world will be like in 400 years or whenever the next blight comes, my character certaintly wont be around to make sure the archdemon is killed.

Which he doesn't elaborate on so for all we know his plan could be 'awaken all darkspawn everywhere so no one can find the Old God or a Blight won't start when they do.' And your character, regardless of what the gameplay mechanics may lead you to believe, is not the only competent person in the world (Sgt. Kylon, for instance...). Four Blights have been stopped without you and if it comes to it, two more will be, too (although the damage will probably be greater than this mini-Blight). The first Blight was even stopped by people who had no idea what they were doing and had to work out the Joining ritual on their own.

Third reason I had Nathaniel with me, and he seemed to believe siding with the Architect was a good idea. As he was my favorite companion (Odd seeing as my character is a HFN and his father murdered my family) I listened to him, even though I also had Anders and Justice telling me letting him live was too dangerous.

I don't really think listening to Nathaniel because you like him more is very sound reasoning. If you feel he's less biased or more rational, then yes that might be a reason to take his opinion into account. To do otherwise sounds like the people who killed Loghain because they liked Alistair instead of the people who killed him because they thought he was a monster or deserved execution for his crimes.

As well in Origins I made the deal with Moriggan to survive killing the archdemon, creating what possibly might be an old god. I figured if I had done a questionable act by agreeing to such an act, I might as well do the questionable and let the architect live.

That was a very questionable act, certainly, but an understandable one. Your soul or Alistair's (or if some people cared, Loghain's) would not be destroyed forever you you'd get to live. That may yet come back to haunt Ferelden or Thedas in general in a few years. Letting the Architect live and throwing his faction into the potential problems that could occrin the future just because you already did one probably stupid thing and figured what the hell isn't really sound reasoning, either.

As many have said, freeing a darkspawn appears cut off its ability to be able to listen to and find the old gods. Sure some go insane, like the mother, but all in all I dont see how the mother was anywhere near the threat of the blight. The forces that attacked amerethine and the vigils keep seemed to be nowhere near that which attacked Ostagar or Denerim. And the only reason they caused so much damage is they were attacking an area that didnt have that much military force to begin with. If the mother had attacked denerim I doubt so much loss would have happened.

Maybe, maybe not. According to Sgt. Kylon his men are barely capable bastard sons of noblemen and so if it was a surprise attack, it might fall just the same. Besides, the Mother and her followers were just a relatively small sample of darkspawn. If all darkspawn are freed, even if only, say, five percent go crazy then that would still be far more than enough to pose a serious threat to Ferleden.

As for whether or not bringing intelligent species that brings the taint with it into the world is a good idea, I dont know. But I certaintly would rather face an intelligent species then a mindless one. The darkspawn we are used to facing outside of blights seems to little more then mindless husks, little more then animals. Granted that means they unorganized, but also chaotic. Atleast if you are facing an intelligent enemy you know what to expect for the most part. And since the intelligent darkspawn dont seem that intelligent, they are likely to make mistakes.

Why would you rather face an intelligent foe than one relying mostly on instincts? Non-awakened darkspawn (when there is no Blight) are easy to predict and thus easier to fight. It's when the darkspawn start using strategies (like at Ostagar and tricking the army into thinking the horde was headed for Redcliffe) that things start to go wrong. Sure, mistakes might be made by the intelligent darkspawn, but surely they could also be made by the non-awakened ones who would be inless of a position to fix them.

[Silent X]

IanPolaris wrote...

Had the architect been able to show or convince me that this ultimate dynamic had changed, my decision would be different....but he either could not or would not. That doesn't mean I regard the Architect as honorable. I think the Architect is willing to do whatever it takes to help his "people" and that includes manipulation, experiementation, lying, ect....but in fairness the Grey Wardens themselves aren't so different.

Just because I have no qualms killing the Architect does not mean I can't regard him as a tragic figure. I do. However, that did not and should not stay any hands.

-Polaris

Agreed. You have a point--maybe he isn't honorable. Perhaps I should have said that he came across that way in that particular interaction, which could just mean he's being cleverly manipulative. I'm about 1/4 of the way through The Calling now, and it's making me think that he is more manipulative than anything else. Which confirms me in my decision to kill him without having read the book.

I guess that part of my decision really came down to my character being too honorable to make a deal with an enemy and then double-cross him. I was very, "Let's have everything out in the open and resolve this like gentlemen." Plus, I'd be way too worried that he'd go to ground as soon as the Mother was dealt with and get up to all sorts of other mischief before I managed to track him down again. So I killed him while I knew I had the chance.

I agree that he's a tragic figure, but it didn't stay my hand, either, and I don't think it should have.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The mother wasn't a threat to Ferelden, nor was she portrayed as such, she was plain and simply a threat to Amaranthine. However Amaranthine had a crucial impact on how the Fereldans looked at the Grey Wardens, thus the importance of the storyline.



All it boils down to is really that some people are willing to take the risk of allowing his experiments to continue (which results in quiter Deep Roads than ever), while others wouldn't even trust him enough to take care of their mother-in-law.

[Robalicious_13]

The dude captured me and tried to kill me.



he only told me of his plan and asked for my help too, when his homies couldn't kill me, and I was tearing through them.



Until that point, earlier on he tried to kill me, and that fool took my blood.



NOT COOL BRAH!

[Amias666]

[quote]Sarah1281 wrote...

[quote] First reason being my character generally believes in redemption, sometimes at my companions dismay. All things deserve a second chance, even if they bit you in the ass atleast you gave them the opportunity to do what is right. Where as if you kill them then you never know if they were capable of doing what is right. [/quote] He had several opportunities. In fact, you could say he got his chance for redemption after he wasn't killed in the Calling and what did he do? Start a Blight and unleash insane darkspawn upon Amaranthine. Is it enough that he had a chance and blew it or do you need to personally give everyone a chance for redemption?
[/quote]
 Well I never read the Calling, but from what people here have said the book actually gave reasons for some to support him even further.

[quote]Sarah1281 wrote...
[quote] Second reason being he said he had a way to end the blights and ending the cycle. I dont know what the world will be like in 400 years or whenever the next blight comes, my character certaintly wont be around to make sure the archdemon is killed. [/quote] Which he doesn't elaborate on so for all we know his plan could be 'awaken all darkspawn everywhere so no one can find the Old God or a Blight won't start when they do.' And your character, regardless of what the gameplay mechanics may lead you to believe, is not the only competent person in the world (Sgt. Kylon, for instance...). Four Blights have been stopped without you and if it comes to it, two more will be, too (although the damage will probably be greater than this mini-Blight). The first Blight was even stopped by people who had no idea what they were doing and had to work out the Joining ritual on their own.
[/quote]

You conventiently removed the portion where i said I dont know if the grey wardens will even be around in 400 years. The grey wardens came very close to not even being around for this blight in Ferelden, If king Maric hadnt of brought Grey wardens back to ferelden then it is very possible that the blight wouldnt have been stopped so soon.

Who is to say that in the next 400 years there isnt a grand Grey warden hunt and all the grey wardens dissapear. (Not likely but possible) and all their knowledge is lost, will people figure out how to stop the blight during the next one?


[quote]Sarah1281 wrote...
[quote] Third reason I had Nathaniel with me, and he seemed to believe siding with the Architect was a good idea. As he was my favorite companion (Odd seeing as my character is a HFN and his father murdered my family) I listened to him, even though I also had Anders and Justice telling me letting him live was too dangerous. [/quote] I don't really think listening to Nathaniel because you like him more is very sound reasoning. If you feel he's less biased or more rational, then yes that might be a reason to take his opinion into account. To do otherwise sounds like the people who killed Loghain because they liked Alistair instead of the people who killed him because they thought he was a monster or deserved execution for his crimes.
[/quote]

Nathaniel is someone who understands that sometimes you have to make sacrifices for the greater good. He agree's that if there is a chance even a small one that the cycle of the blights can be broken it is worth whatever the costs.

I didnt listen to him merely because I like him, I listened to him because his thoughts mirrored my own. If he had told me to kill the architect then I probably wouldnt have listened.



[quote]Sarah1281 wrote...
[quote] As well in Origins I made the deal with Moriggan to survive killing the archdemon, creating what possibly might be an old god. I figured if I had done a questionable act by agreeing to such an act, I might as well do the questionable and let the architect live. [/quote] That was a very questionable act, certainly, but an understandable one. Your soul or Alistair's (or if some people cared, Loghain's) would not be destroyed forever you you'd get to live. That may yet come back to haunt Ferelden or Thedas in general in a few years. Letting the Architect live and throwing his faction into the potential problems that could occrin the future just because you already did one probably stupid thing and figured what the hell isn't really sound reasoning, either.
[/quote]
You have me there that is for certain. That is certaintly a bad reason to decide to let him live.



[quote]Sarah1281 wrote...
[quote] As for whether or not bringing intelligent species that brings the taint with it into the world is a good idea, I dont know. But I certaintly would rather face an intelligent species then a mindless one. The darkspawn we are used to facing outside of blights seems to little more then mindless husks, little more then animals. Granted that means they unorganized, but also chaotic. Atleast if you are facing an intelligent enemy you know what to expect for the most part. And since the intelligent darkspawn dont seem that intelligent, they are likely to make mistakes. [/quote] Why would you rather face an intelligent foe than one relying mostly on instincts? Non-awakened darkspawn (when there is no Blight) are easy to predict and thus easier to fight. It's when the darkspawn start using strategies (like at Ostagar and tricking the army into thinking the horde was headed for Redcliffe) that things start to go wrong. Sure, mistakes might be made by the intelligent darkspawn, but surely they could also be made by the non-awakened ones who would be inless of a position to fix them.[/quote]
[/quote]
For a couple reasons.
Humans know what to expect from an intelligent enemy, they are experienced at combatting intelligent forces, it is when they face what they believe to be a disorganaized that they start letting their guard down and enable yourself to be overwhelmed like what happened at ostagar.

If you know your enemy is intelligent and likely to change tactics alot then you going to be more gaurded and less likely to get suprise attack. Atleast my reasoning.

As I said as well, even if the darkspawn to become a threat, there is a good chance, especially with the blight fresh in peoples minds that they will be held back. And if they continue to be a problem that people can see, rather then a problem that only orzammar see's in between blights then the fear of the blights, and the need to defend yourself against them will remain in people minds.

If the darkspawn hadnt of gone back to the deeproads after the 4th blight and given the people of ferelden and everywhere else a chance to forget them then it is possible that they wouldnt have been underestimated during the one seen in the game.

Peace breeds complacency after all.

[Sarah1281]

You conventiently removed the portion where i said I dont know if the grey wardens will even be around in 400 years. The grey wardens came very close to not even being around for this blight in Ferelden, If king Maric hadnt of brought Grey wardens back to ferelden then it is very possible that the blight wouldnt have been stopped so soon.

The GW in general aren't dying out, they just don't have much of a presence in Ferelden. They practically rule the Anderfels and they are apparently strong enough in Orlais that Loghain decided that they were a Orlesian organization and when Ferelden needed more Wardens (both at Ostagar and during Awakenings and given what bad things keep happening to Orlesian GW in Ferelden you'd think they'd stop sending them). Yes, if Ferelen is the sight of the next Blight (unlikely given the Old Gods appear to be scattered) and they have done away with the Wardens again it could be very bad but it seem unlikely that they'll cease to exist altogether.