1316 réponses à ce sujet

[SirOccam]

tmelange wrote...
Fortunately, BW minions patrol these forums like hawks. If the title was inappropriate, I'm sure they would have said so. Just because YOU think it's a spoiler doesn't make it so. I disagree with your assessment, but feel free to complain about it to TPTB. If a mod taps me on the shoulder, I'll be happy to change it.

Also, in this forum, thread titles are replete with what you're calling "spoilers":

"Can't finish silverite mines"

OMG, we get to go into a mine?!

"Awakening Walkthorughs - Assault on Vigil's Keep"

OmG, there's an assault on Vigil's Keep?! What's vigil's Keep...?

"Who else luvs Ser Pounce-a-lot, the fierce attack kitten!"

OMG, there's a cat pet in game named ser pounce-a-lot?!

"(Awakening) Of Anders and Mage Wardens"

OMG, there's a mage warden named Anders?!

"Mhairi's Joining (Spoilers)"

There's a companion named Mhairi who goes through the joining?!"

Hope I didn't spoil you there, dude.

Now you're just being intentionally dense. At least I hope it's intentional.

Your stupid counter-examples are barely even worth responding to. Suffice it to say that knowing a "mine" may be involved at some point in the game is hardly the same thing as knowing you can choose to spare the life of the main bad guy of the story. That and everything else is common knowledge, at least among forum denizens (Bioware themselves posted threads containing the names of each companion), but that doesn't mean a major plot twist regarding one of the most central figures (if not THE central figure) in the game, which takes place *at the end of the game*, is as well-known.

I don't know why you're taking such offense anyway. Like posting the spoiler was so important to you that if you hadn't, your game would be ruined. Like choosing a different title would have been so horrible. I'm glad you think a random whim on your part is worth spoiling the ending of the game for other players.

All I asked was that you not post a spoiler in your thread title. I never claimed you were a horrible person for doing so. I had hoped that maybe it would even prompt you to go back and edit it, taking 5 seconds out of your day to be more considerate of your fellow DA fans. But I guess instead you'd rather dig your heels in and retardedly defend it. Well good for you.

Modifié par SirOccam, 20 mars 2010 - 11:32 .

[BanksHector]

I sided with him because I believe that he would return the trust you gave to him, and aid you one day in your time of need. Taking a chance on someone is always a risk and he could very well lead an army of darkspawn and kill you. I still believe it's worth the risk, because I do not believe his army could ever be the size of one the archdemon would lead. Its also possible if he frees enough and another archdemon comes he could fight against it.



I can forgive causing one old god to awaken(it would of happen anyway), but if it happens again I cannot forgive that lol.

[Mirthadrond]

The Architect dies, as does his messenger. They are darkspawn and it's my job to kill them. ALL OF THEM!

Sure - I listened to his speech, and was moved to a single tear at the fact that he and a handful of darkspawn had become sentient, but quite honestly that just makes them more of a threat.



Stopping the blight, while a noble goal, is not really an issue since there are only 2 old gods left, meaning only 2 blights remain, and we will handle them the same way we handled the past 5, with extreme prejudice.



Darkspawn are a corruption that needs to be eradicated, not converted.



Sorry Archie; while your goal may have been noble, your corruption is apparent in the methods you employed to achieve your goal.



Time to die....

[JamieCOTC]

If you let the messenger live, which I did, his epilogue slide is interesting.



*spoiler* He goes around doing good deeds for people, but he also spreads disease. *spoiler*

[nranola]

I like how this discussion is progressing. x3



I do see the point of those who decided to kill him off. There are only two more Blights left, and a purge of darkspawn does seem like a sensible choice. But I dunno, it just doesn't sit well with me to waste your chance at getting to know the enemy better.



We don't exactly know a lot about these creatures, and having someone on your side who can give you some insight on them seems like a fair deal. Who's to say they're to remain parasites to humans? Who's to say they will still taint others after the Architect is finished with his experiments? You might be able to make some sort of compromise, you may not, but you forfeit the opportunity by killing him right there.

[Big_Chief]

I ended up sparing him for several reasons. For one, he seemed to be genuine in the things he tells you. Obviously its hard to be certain, but still. Second, I was curious to see where the story would go if I made that decision. Third, and perhaps most importantly, it is a chance to stop all future blights. It made sense to me to have my character risk a lot, and put faith in some potentially nasty people, if it meant taking advantage of that chance.

[guitarbard]

I spared him because I have discovered the following things throughout the game:



Someone you once thought friend can immediately turn enemy. (Arl Howe)

Someone who genuinely cares about his country can, in acting in a way he thinks is best, screw it all up. (Loghain)

A man who also wants the best for his country wants to put forward a bumbling, unwilling king simply because he is of Maric's bloodline. (Arl Eamon)

A man's evil but well-meant research thus yields evil results. (Avernus)

An invention made in hopes to strengthen an army can be turned to evil. (Anvil of the Void)



Hang on, I'm seeing a pattern here.



The whole game is about people making horrid choices and then working to redeem themselves. Loghain, Carridain, Avernus, Isolde, Sten, Jowan, Leliana, Zathrian, and now Nathaniel, Velanna, and The Architect. Though some characters have admittedly not found redemption nor searched for it (Howe, Branka, Vaughn), those that DO seek to help make things right end up doing so in the end. That is why I spared the Architect - 'cause in the past, the good guys screwed me over and the bad guys helped me out.

[cactusmaac1]

I let him live.



I reckoned Blights were more dangerous than intelligent darkspawn, since in the former case you had an overmind intelligently directing ALL the darkspawn to crush the surface world. And these were darkspawn who were individually akin to mindless, rabid animals who could do nothing but kill and spread destruction. They had already mostly wiped out the dwarves.



In the latter case, intelligent darkspawn would gain rationality, a sense of self-preservation, the ability to think long-term and the propensity to form opposing factions like intelligent life everywhere. They could also possibly develop a system of morality, and who knows, maybe even get religion. This would reduce their inclination for all-out war. It also means they could potentially join the ranks of the civilised races and engage in trade with the rest of Thedas.



On top of that, the Architect didn't really give me a really compelling reason to kill him. His messenger served me well in the salvation of Amaranthine. The Architect himself seemed quite polite and somebody you could do business with, the darkspawn equivalent of Gorbachev.



Something in his letter to Utha also struck me, where he asked her to go top-side since the exposure to fresh air and greenery would help raise her spirits. Someone who likes nature and has concern for the welfare of his underlings is more than just a monster.

[Brockololly]

cactusmaac1 wrote...

On top of that, the Architect didn't really give me a really compelling reason to kill him. His messenger served me well in the salvation of Amaranthine. The Architect himself seemed quite polite and somebody you could do business with, the darkspawn equivalent of Gorbachev.

 

Ha- I like that analogy.

I let him live, but the big thing that still would bother me is the whole matter of darkspawn reproduction. I'm sorry but if the darkspawn still made raids to get females for broodmothers, thats just not cool. That would be a dealbreaker for my Warden- no person should have to go through that process.

[Jax Sparrow]

 I spared him my first play through and I am replaying it now that I know the correct sequence of areas to go too.  The second toon I take through though will kill him.  The reason I spared him was because in my mind my toon is romancing Velanna {The approval level says she loves him at 100% afterall} and Seranni might fight with him... and Velanna fell for the whole slavery hook, line, and sinker.  The only reason I let that logic fly though was because the Architect and I were temperarily fighting the same monster.  I replaced the word "ally" with "convenient tool".  So in the future? its no holds bar, gloves are off.  And, I think the Architect knew this and that is why the epilogue had him running deep into the Deep Rodes to hide from me.  The foreign nation Wardens might have had a problem with him but my toon is King-consort and they can just deal with it.  The only person he would care to get a critic about it is Anora.

As for the second play through? he is deader than dead... he was killed in my eyes when I read his lab notes after he captured me.

• Wardens were better kept alive, and unharmed.
• He 'attacked' Vigil and he is obviously lying when he suggests otherwise, logic says this as does his lab notes provide strong circumstantial evidence.
• He infected Seranni, and I don't care if she 'asked' for it. He did know better, if he was trying to be 'nice'.

All this combined makes him dead when not concerned about Velanna's approval. It also means, that if I see him in Origins II? he is dead. As BioWare said be careful about believing anything the Architect says. What he 'wants' is still diametrically opposed to the Wardens. The ONLY real reason to let him live is to have help fighting Mother... but afterwards?

The game suggests that to ally with the Architect is to end all Blights, forever. Even if you trust that the Architect is honest in everything, he has already proven he hopes to 'free' an Old God from the corruption. So, as soon as he is ready? he will try again. Which might be part of Origins II come to think of it. So, my point is that the Wardens is far from any danger of becoming extinct, due to lack of Archdemon blood.

Modifié par Jax Sparrow, 21 mars 2010 - 04:10 .

[Tinnic]

My mage let both the messenger and the Architect live. The messenger would probably always live with my characters as he didn't seem particularly harmful apart from being a Darkspawn. Most of my character are elves. They would know something about just being judged one way for being elves.



The Architect is more... troubling. The need for Broodmothers is the single reason that you can't just take the Architect at his word. At that point it really becomes a matter of, are you, as the Commander of the Grey, willing to try something new. If you are, let the Architect go. If not, kill him. Kill him = maintain status quo, i.e. cycle of blights continue. Don't kill him = strike a new path and see where it leads. The new path can be an epic disaster but blights aren't exactly pleasant either. So it's more the case of, staying with the devil you know or not.

[Sotaklas]

i spared him because i thoughts it might be better to have smart darkspawns and not mindless hordes killing everything and wake an old god again but of course if they are smart they might want to conquer all so it was a gamble, but as it seems at the end everything was better so i guess it was a the right choice.

[Sarah1281]

but as it seems at the end everything was better so i guess it was a the right choice.

We don't know that. We only know that the darkspawn continued to act as they always did without the Architect and with him they went underground and could be planning something or make more mistakes like the Mother and the entire Fifth Blight. The Architect might end up saving the darkspawn but in the meantime he's done far more harm than good.

[Efesell]

I spare him because it seems like that would have the most interesting future outcome.

[Vicious]

Lots of heresay and conjecture here. It is an accepted fact that Dumat was the strongest of the old gods. He had every advantage. There were no Grey Wardens, no one knew what Darkspawn were, and the Dwarves were nearly wiped out.



And Dumat still lost.



For that reason I think Blights are preferable to sentient Darkspawn running all over the place becoming superpowered mages/warriors/forging Darkspawn kingdoms and taking over Thedas with Darkspawn-infected blankets and such.



That said, In the long run this decision is probably meaningless. The Architect is not immortal; If we do not kill him someone else will. And another Darkspawn will probably pick up where he left off. Unlike the Blight, this is one plot hook [sentient Darkspawn] that I think Bioware will run with for sequels; much like Morrigan's child.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Vicious wrote...

Lots of heresay and conjecture here. It is an accepted fact that Dumat was the strongest of the old gods. He had every advantage. There were no Grey Wardens, no one knew what Darkspawn were, and the Dwarves were nearly wiped out.

And Dumat still lost.

At the cost of millions.

The fact that Urthemiel was incompetent does not mean that the 6th and 7th Gods (God of mystery and God of night) are as incompetent. To take it for granted that the 6th and 7th blight will be defeated or won't end up causing millions of deaths is a leap of faith. One I can't make.

Sparing the Architect on the otherhand can always be rectified should he turn out to be a threat.

[Koracus666]

  Well unless you have the read The Calling you tend not to get alot of information on the subject of The Architect.  I did not bother to see if anyone had posted what The Arch was planning on before even the story of Origins.  He had planned with the old Circle of Magi to deploy a type of "magical device" using dark spawn magic, and placing these things in all the cities.  These devices would be like making everyone drink dark spawn blood in a sort of mass joining ritual.  Now you know what that means? Massive deaths across all the countries.   This was in The Arch's eyes,  to cause the world and the remaining dark spawn to join together in peace. 

   Now granted that might make him seem like a terrible guy. But like you all know, he was doing all of this to free his people from the "song".  I'll clarify this, the old gods aka the dragons who were sealed away and hidden, call out to the dark spawn.  This "callling" to the dark spawn, and as a note, to all the grey wardens who have been grey wardens for many years and whose taint has spread through thier bodies hear this "song".  The difference between the effect of this calling on grey wardens and the dark spawn is that he darkspawn although not mindless lack that certain something, maybe a "soul" maybe just free will, the dark spawn are not able to resist this calling to find the old god and to free it.  This ability to resist the taint and the song made grey wardens of interest to The Arch.

   He now obviously has changed his plans slightly.  The Arch does indeed want his fellow dark spawns to be freed with no wish to rule or command over them, just to help them transition into the same state of mind he is in.  He had done things that caused much pain and sufferring. Killing wardens and what not. Aswell as causing a dark spawn cival war that could've blown into another blight. 

  Now I am not saying he is a great guy and all.  He has many flaws. He is very ignorant when it comes to the reactions of the other races of the world.  I did feel sympathy though considering that is was the human mages that brought the taint into the world and thus creating the darkspawn.  I thought the sins of humankind created them and thus I had a responsiblity to help them grow beyond the taint.  Consider it a test of the maker.  To accept humankinds sins instead of trying to destroy them. 

   But all in all as long as we had fun with what we were doing it doesnt really matter now does it?

/respect

[UnAffectedFiddle]

Kept him alive, a darkspawn civil war can only help limit their numbers and slow them down. If he does stick his head above ground the massive army of Wardens at Vigils Keep are more than capable fo dealing with him.

[tmelange]

I just played through the Silverite mine area again, and a number of things stood out to me:

There was a whole room filed with dead people in the prison area that the Architect had been experimenting on, thrown on the floor like garbage;

Outside of the mine, there was a whole pit of dead people, discarded like garbage;

Utha was an example of exactly how humankind can expect to live in close proximity to the darkspawn; she is one of his partners, yet she is diseased, can't talk and has lost her freedom to live a normal life; If she can't survive their accord, how would anybody?

The quanari who is trading with them says he had to exact a promise of protection against the taint before he could set up shop;

In the notes and journals, the Architect refers to Valanna's sister as an "it" and says maybe he should have just killed it while it slept.

It's hard for me to see the Architect as a potential ally when everything he has done shows that his interests cannot align with human interests.

Modifié par tmelange, 21 mars 2010 - 06:33 .

[Gilsa]

tmelange wrote...

In the notes and journals, the Architect refers to Valanna's sister as an "it" and says maybe he should have just killed it while it slept.

Actually the Architect uses the "her" and "she" pronoun when talking about the sister. "It" only shows up in the final line, which I interpreted as referring to our Warden since he had just put us to sleep.

[Khajiin]

So you spared him? What happens next.

We got smart Darkspawn who in order to free themselfs need YOUR Greywarden blood and i guess they don't wanna vanquish, so they need more "innocent" Dwarfs, Humans, Qunari what will Result in wars.

Ok no more blights yay .. imagine smat Darspawn Raid Parties capturing future Darkspawn Citizens.

Maybe they decide they like Daylight, sure maybe a King gives up his country .. propably not, Darkspawn attacking outside the Deep Roads.. did anyone call for a blight?

At all, the Architect didn't free many Darkspawn and allready encountered the Mother ... many don't even want to be freed and if they are and disapprove of it it's a Darkspawn civil war...

Way to many risks in my opinion .. as much as i understand his desire to free his "people" ..

we crushed 5 Blights so far .. ok 2 left his a high Risk .. but well a Darkspawn free World .. high Risk, high Reward .. the other is just a risk which will definetly result in war!

Hunt them down and slay them all!

[tmelange]

Gilsa wrote...

tmelange wrote...

In the notes and journals, the Architect refers to Valanna's sister as an "it" and says maybe he should have just killed it while it slept.

Actually the Architect uses the "her" and "she" pronoun when talking about the sister. "It" only shows up in the final line, which I interpreted as referring to our Warden since he had just put us to sleep.

I suppose it could refer to the warden; it's not clear. But he is referring to someone as an "it". That it might be my warden does little to encourage me to spare him. lol

[Sarah1281]

I suppose it could refer to the warden; it's not clear. But he is referring to someone as an "it". That it might be my warden does little to encourage me to spare him. lol

Maybe the Architect is like Shale and has trouble telling genders apart.  Gamewise, since it's a note it was probably easier to refer to the warden with a neutral pronoun than having a different version for either gender. Honestly, the codex has enough difficulty figuring out what you actually did and if your party members lived or died, let alone if you're a boy or girl.

[CerebusAlteri]

since he is a optional item to let live or kill, it is safe to assume he is not a major player in the later games since half the people killed him already.



he will probably end up being an ally or a incidental bad guy to deal with. either way he kept his word, he went back deep underground the deep roads are the most calm they have been in ages, oghren thinks letting him live is a good idea just to give orza a break from the constant darkspawn menace, or at lest it is worth taking a chance on him. he could have killed you and drained you all dry when you were captured yet didnt. he was trying to stop mother on his own but was too weak.



yes he created the last blight but he was trying to stop the song at its source thinking, and hey i would think the same thing, if i can convert the old god into a free thinking independent soul it might free all my people in the process.



can darkspawn live among humans? clearly not. but they have miles upon miles of deep roads they are well familiar with and can exist in.



far as people just getting the taint by being around darkspawn, hey dao your entire party spent most of the game covered in darkspawn blood yet only 3 of you had immunity to the stuff and none of them got sick . ok bit of a gaping plot hole they tried to fix in awakenings i guess by having your whole party be wardens.



either way it makes life more interesting and heck just fighting hordes of weaksauce mindless darkspawn gets pretty darn yawntastic with only the occasional archdemon to break up the monotony every couple hundred years. so either he is good to his word and helps end the blights or weaken them greatly and leads his people to a age of enlightenment and peace, or he raises an army to conqueor the surface world and i have to put him down.



way i see it at lest. my bets is he follows the arachai in ME, where to take a leap of faith and end up with a powerful ally to fight a greater foe when the day comes.

[Sarah1281]

can darkspawn live among humans? clearly not. but they have miles upon miles of deep roads they are well familiar with and can exist in.

Which is all well and good for human or elf wardens but how could the dwarf wardens possibly justify strengthening the darkspawn and sending them away from the surface and back to the deep roads where its their people's problem again? The darkspawn only have the land that they do because they took it from the dwarves.