1316 réponses à ce sujet

[barrelofmonkeyzz]

I also thought "it" refered to the player warden, since we're the last thing on his lab table before we start trashing the place. Which really makes me wonder if there's something about our warden that's not quite normal...

Some things to consider ( these points are all pure speculation on my part):

I don't think the Architect is actually a true darkspawn in the strictest sense. Imagine a woman who's 6 or 7 months pregnant, and she gets captured and turned into a broodmother. It's possible that if the fetus survives, it would be an amalgam of elf and darkspawn physically (he looks more like part sharlock rather than part hurlock).

He can't hear the Calling which implies that his soul is tied to the song of the Fade instead of the song of the Black City. This means that he's the first creature that we're aware of to be born immune to the taint and the Calling.

When wardens go through the Joining, they're corrupting their soul and tying it to the song of the Black City. As the taint progresses, more and more of their soul gets pulled towards the Calling. If their soul gets completely decoupled from the Fade, they become darkspawn alphas, emmisaries and generals.

The Architect has somehow figured out a way to invert that process and link the darkspawn back to the Fade, severing them from the Black song. This can have all sorts of nasty consequences that I doubt the Architect is aware of. Everything from darkspawn abominations (which aren't possible with normal darkspawn) to a destabilization of the Fade causing a cataclysm similar to the original destruction of the Golden City.

You gotta kind of feel sorry for the guy though. He spent over 20 years bumbling around on his own, trying to figure things out. Going from one failed theory to another. It doesn't seem like he does things out of malice. He has no concept of the value of indiviual life, since the main darkspawn horde is effectively a hivemind.

Unfortunately his trial and error methods leave a lot of death and destruction in its wake. Most of my wardens would have a hard time letting him live.

[PJLara]

Why are so many posting in this thread as though there won't be another expansion for DA? Everyone's like DA2 this, DA2 that. The game is less than 6 months old, folks... Logically, there should be another expansion, unless there's been an announcement that I haven't read, in which case, can someone please link to it?

[J-Reyno]

My PC couldn't do it. The Architect just needed to be killed because he is a darkspawn. While he seemed to harness no innate hostility towards humans the same cannot necessarily be said of his "creations". Case in point being the Mother. And he still cared nothing for the lives of those he killed while trying to save his "people".

True enough, Blights are great threats and it would be nice to prevent them, but at what cost? A new intelligent breed of darkspawn that may or may not wage war against the world and taint thousands to create more of their kind? They don't just taint humans, but dwarves, elves, apparently qunari according to the merchant guy, and even creatures. Their very existence is the bane of all life. I mean, look at them, they just LOOK unnatural, grotesque, and corrupted. I couldn't even stand to let his messenger live even if it was supposedly a "good" one.

I'd take a horde of mindless darkspawn over an army of intelligent ones anyday.

[cactusmaac1]

tmelange wrote...

Utha was an example of exactly how humankind can expect to live in close proximity to the darkspawn; she is one of his partners, yet she is diseased, can't talk and has lost her freedom to live a normal life; If she can't survive their accord, how would anybody?

In the notes and journals, the Architect refers to Valanna's sister as an "it" and says maybe he should have just killed it while it slept.
.

Wasn't Utha a Silent Sister? I thought that's why she couldn't talk.

Personally I thought the "it" referred to the Mother. I don't see why it would have referred to the Warden since he needed to a) talk the Warden round into killing the Mother and extracting Warden blood.

[Xandrar]

I saved the Architect. I liked the idea of a total badass who actually totally ****s up. Lets recap:

My warrior has crushed pretty much every darkspawnskull in Ferelden. Everyone thinks Im the hero.

In the meantime, I have created an old god in the form of a human, with my own blood, ánd I have sided with a strange darkspawn who wants grey warden blood to make darkspawn rational, which results in scary, evil broodmothers.



At any rate, Id say my PC has done a pretty bad job as a grey warden. At least it makes for interesting expansions. (if they continue the story)

[MachinekiIIer]

tmelange wrote...

 

and it also supplies a way for Duncan to be alive still. LOL (Keep hope ALIVE)

david gaider said duncan is deffinetly dead.....so there is no hope lol

[Majere613]

I'm going to quote a bit from one of my own threads here, since that one has largely turned into a discussion of where to put castles and this topic is more interesting



The Architect's plan is, in a nutshell, this:

1) Take one (1) Grey Warden

2) Suck out their blood. Since the ritual is analagous to the Joining, this seems to mean all of it.

3) Take one (1) Darkspawn

4) Peform ritual

5) Hope new Darkspawn comes out smart and reasonable as opposed to nuts.



Of course, that plan requires a Grey Warden. To create a Grey Warden:

1) Take one (1) Darkspawn

2) Kill it for its blood to make the Joining potion

3) Take one (1) schmuck

4) Perform ritual

5) Hope new Grey Warden doesn't immediately drop dead.



Soo. How many Darkspawn are there, again? Millions? Exactly how many Grey Wardens does the Architect plan on turning into Darkspawn slurpees? Even if the 'donation' process isn't fatal, judging by his Dwarf friend and 'test subjects' it doesn't exactly leave the Warden in much of a pleasant state of health. Of course, the Architect doesn't have to 'save' every darkspawn, but unless he does it's Blight Time in a few centuries again.

OK, let's take the hugs & bunnies approach and say, hey, it'll work fine. Great. Where do the new Darkspawn come from? Broodmothers. So in order for the race to continue, they still need to keep turning women into Broodmothers. Or, of course, die out. Well done there, Architect.



(I know there's a few assumptions in there, like the 1:1 ratio but since killing a darkspawn in DA:O only yields enough blood for one vial, it seems reasonable. Maybe you could get it up a little in lab conditions)

[UnAffectedFiddle]

They have become sentient. Whatever was done in their bestial insanity does not excuse us to destroy a race just born to personal, cognitive thought.

Devoid of a true free will, yes. It is much like a rabid dog running around. But once they come into cognitive thought, a desire to change it is not a simple question. Wiping out an entire race because of what they might do, or be percieved to do is crossing a line. You cannot now condemn a race for actions of part of its society.

So far their methods have been terrible, partially due to a lack of understanding as they are essentially newborns in the world. But its the same reason I side with Morrigan, we do not have the right to destroy everything we do not like or causes us damage. Look how much damage all of Thedas' races have caused, and yet we deem ourselves worthy of living because we are imperfect, flawed is considered a part of nature. We tell ourselves that we arent all bad, we arent all evil, we deserve to live...

Edit
Argh, sleepy so not entirely cohesive with my sentences. Me fail Engrish, thats unpossible.

Modifié par UnAffectedFiddle, 21 mars 2010 - 11:04 .

[Seraphism]

Let him live, though really wanted more dialogue options to find out exactly what was going on, what future plans were etc etc. ie no more broodmothers (non-negotiable), what intelligent darkspawn would be doing henceforth.



and would have moved him to vigils keep or something or a grey warden compound provided he passed the fit and proper moral character check.

[Seraphism]

I also agree with Unaffectedfiddle. It's not moral to destroy something just because there is a chance it might hurt you. Otherwise we'd all be killed as soon as we were born.



I think it's one of the themes of DA, do we let the old god live or not (through morrigans baby). Do we think the mages should be locked up in the tower? Do the darkspawn have the right to freewill (and the consequences that result from that).

[dudewithname]

I know that a lot of people who read calling would side with the architect

[magnuskn]

I let him live, because I was thinking about free-will and self-determination, yadda yadda yadda.



But thinking about it now, I think it was a mistake and in the next playthrough I will kill the guy. Why? Well, first off, he still will resort to kidnapping Grey Wardens for experimentation. Secondly, the darkspawn are a blemish upon Thedas and, by the very nature of their existance, antithetical to the other races.



Their reproduction, for instance, is based on raping women of other species and brutally transforming them into bloated monstrosities which pop out darkspawn by the thousands. If that alone isn't a reason to wipe them out completely, I don't know what else could sway people.

[UnAffectedFiddle]

We dont know anything about their race. Broodmothers are horrid, yes. But its the result of a race devoid of free will. What we need to know is how are Darkspawn linked to the fade and why the Old Gods "song" calls them. It lends credit to the whole Chantry though, which is a scary thought.



The Chantry is in a position to act as guided HUMAN blight. Exalted marches? Everyone must hear the makes will?



Blights...everyone must be one with the blighted or consumed in its path.



Some wasps reproduce by laying their eggs in other insects so they can incubate and use the living insect as warmth and eventually food. What is the end effect of the Old Dragons all becoming extinct? What if their song is the Fade?



More...dreadful...is the Architect and Mother are highly evolved. Look at the messenger or the First. What could be argued is that even benevolent, blight is still spread by being close.



Either way our very souls run the chance of being tarnished forever by not giving hope a chance. At worst we face another Blight, but now their is the potential to evolve beyond a massacre which will only consume Thedas. How can we look a races desire to evolve beyond its nature and claim its not fit to judge, to learn, to grow, to live. Look at Utha, and the elf. They see an infant race and know direction is needed, their is no true mother or true father to give them direction. A perfect option here would have been for your Warden to follow the Architect as an embassador or even an everpresent reminder.



Dont get me wrong, its not a song and dance around rainbows to save Darkspawn. Any signs of aggression will meet with a swift response with a clear warning. Active broodmother nests that steal from other races will meet a merciless reprisal. I respect their desire to survive and evolve, but god help the Architect if my races survival is threatened by the Darkspawn again.



I fear a future war, but hope for peace. The difference is having that hope against eternal war.

[Ravenfeeder]

I figured that the Architect's plan could lead to less blights and would almost certainly lead to darkspawn fighting each other, which would make life for everyone else better and give the Wardens and the dwarves a chance to take the battle to them more effectively.

[magnuskn]

Uh, UnAffectedFiddle, darkspawn need broodmothers to replicate. That means they need females of other races, which then, to become broodmothers, are gangraped and horrifically transformed into the bloated monstrosities we all know.

Even if the darkspawn gain sentience and decide to not do blights anymore, they still will need human, elf and dwarven females to rape and transform into broodmothers, otherwise their race will die out in a darkspawn-generation.

So, if some lord comes to your house and demands your sister or daughter to be "sacrificed" to the darkspawn for the common good, would you still think it a good idea to peacefully co-exist with them? Even while knowing what happens to your relative?

Modifié par magnuskn, 21 mars 2010 - 01:31 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

Of the options presented it seemed like having him as an ally against the broodmother was more important than trying to take him out. One curious thing about him wanting our blood, but technically we also want theirs. Also he showed no malice towards me at that time, same for the messenger although the Architect did have dragons attack me and kidnapped me. But I saw no reason to attack him at that time.

[krylo]

Majere613 wrote...
The Architect's plan is, in a nutshell, this:
1) Take one (1) Grey Warden
2) Suck out their blood. Since the ritual is analagous to the Joining, this seems to mean all of it.
3) Take one (1) Darkspawn
4) Peform ritual
5) Hope new Darkspawn comes out smart and reasonable as opposed to nuts.

Of course, that plan requires a Grey Warden. To create a Grey Warden:
1) Take one (1) Darkspawn
2) Kill it for its blood to make the Joining potion
3) Take one (1) schmuck
4) Perform ritual
5) Hope new Grey Warden doesn't immediately drop dead.

Your biology is off.

Far far off.

One cup, that can be held in Duncan's/Varel's hands, and isn't even full.  That's MAYBE 0.25 litres, to change three people to grey wardens in Origins, and four in Awakenings (granted, actually 1 and 3, due to casualties, but there was enough there).

The (average, adult) human body can lose 1.68 litres of blood before going into shock.  That means that one grey warden could easily provide blood for 4 or more darkspawn 'joinings', per month or so without any real negative effects.  Losing a quarter litre of blood is pretty much of no effect to the human body. 

Really, probably less than that is needed per darkspawn assuming it uses the same amount of blood as the GW joining, which requires the filling of a vial per person.  Vials are generally rather small containers.  The excess fluid in the joining chalice is most likely made up by lyrium and other additives necessary in the magical concentration of taint that makes standard darkspawn (as opposed to Archdemon) blood  viable for the joining process.

The only reason darkspawn need to die to get the three vials is because, well, YOU try talking it out with a hurlock nicely and asking them to let you draw blood.

Indeed, attempting to drink the amount of blood you're suggesting 'straight', would result in vomitting in almost all creatures.  It's doubtful even cannabalistic darkspawn would be able to consume an entire grey warden's worth of blood directly purely based on stomach capacity.

[tmelange]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I suppose it could refer to the warden; it's not clear. But he is referring to someone as an "it". That it might be my warden does little to encourage me to spare him. lol

Maybe the Architect is like Shale and has trouble telling genders apart.  Gamewise, since it's a note it was probably easier to refer to the warden with a neutral pronoun than having a different version for either gender. Honestly, the codex has enough difficulty figuring out what you actually did and if your party members lived or died, let alone if you're a boy or girl.

Oh, so you think it says "it" because the devs didn't bother to make the text variable based on the gender of the PC? LOL I certainly buy that.

Modifié par tmelange, 21 mars 2010 - 03:23 .

[tmelange]

barrelofmonkeyzz wrote...

I also thought "it" refered to the player warden, since we're the last thing on his lab table before we start trashing the place. Which really makes me wonder if there's something about our warden that's not quite normal...

Some things to consider ( these points are all pure speculation on my part):

I don't think the Architect is actually a true darkspawn in the strictest sense. Imagine a woman who's 6 or 7 months pregnant, and she gets captured and turned into a broodmother. It's possible that if the fetus survives, it would be an amalgam of elf and darkspawn physically (he looks more like part sharlock rather than part hurlock).

He can't hear the Calling which implies that his soul is tied to the song of the Fade instead of the song of the Black City. This means that he's the first creature that we're aware of to be born immune to the taint and the Calling.

When wardens go through the Joining, they're corrupting their soul and tying it to the song of the Black City. As the taint progresses, more and more of their soul gets pulled towards the Calling. If their soul gets completely decoupled from the Fade, they become darkspawn alphas, emmisaries and generals.

The Architect has somehow figured out a way to invert that process and link the darkspawn back to the Fade, severing them from the Black song. This can have all sorts of nasty consequences that I doubt the Architect is aware of. Everything from darkspawn abominations (which aren't possible with normal darkspawn) to a destabilization of the Fade causing a cataclysm similar to the original destruction of the Golden City.

You gotta kind of feel sorry for the guy though. He spent over 20 years bumbling around on his own, trying to figure things out. Going from one failed theory to another. It doesn't seem like he does things out of malice. He has no concept of the value of indiviual life, since the main darkspawn horde is effectively a hivemind.

Unfortunately his trial and error methods leave a lot of death and destruction in its wake. Most of my wardens would have a hard time letting him live.

He doesn't seem like a true darkspawn to me either. He looks more like an arcane horror, if you ask me. And the fact that he doesn't know what he is doesn't help the situation.

The fact that he might be unique, and a result of some extraordinary circumstance (e.g. something not natural or replicable) undermines the argument, in my mind, that the intelligent darkspawn are supposed to be intelligent (or "freed") as an evolutionary mandate. If a scientist experiments on a subject -- frakenstein, eugenics, gene therapy anything -- it doesn't mean that the result, even if it produces something better than the original, is the natural evolutionary path. 

Also, I think the other issue is that the darkspawn seem to be a species without females or a reproductive ability of their own. Such a species isn't naturally meant to survive, and enabling them to continue to use human, elven, and dwaven females is unnaturally prolonging their stay on the earth.

[tmelange]

cactusmaac1 wrote...

tmelange wrote...

Utha was an example of exactly how humankind can expect to live in close proximity to the darkspawn; she is one of his partners, yet she is diseased, can't talk and has lost her freedom to live a normal life; If she can't survive their accord, how would anybody?

In the notes and journals, the Architect refers to Valanna's sister as an "it" and says maybe he should have just killed it while it slept.
.

Wasn't Utha a Silent Sister? I thought that's why she couldn't talk.

Personally I thought the "it" referred to the Mother. I don't see why it would have referred to the Warden since he needed to a) talk the Warden round into killing the Mother and extracting Warden blood.

I haven't read the Calling, so all I know of Utha is what we were shown in-game, and I don't remember if it said she was a silent sister. In any event, I wouldn't want to look like her, even if i could talk. LOL High price to pay, and if that's the best that can be arranged regarding the corruption for a person who has been an ally of the darkspawn for a couple of years, I think it's not tenable. If they had shown one non-darkspawn ally, who managed to remain whole and unaffected by their taint despite close proximity, I would be more likely to consider that there is a possible way for darkspawn and non-darkspawn to coexist.

But with pitiable examples like Utha and Valanna's sister, I tend to extrapolate it out and not wish a similar fate on all the world. LOL

Modifié par tmelange, 21 mars 2010 - 03:15 .

[tmelange]

MachinekiIIer wrote...

tmelange wrote...

 

and it also supplies a way for Duncan to be alive still. LOL (Keep hope ALIVE)

david gaider said duncan is deffinetly dead.....so there is no hope lol

I think I answered this once already: I don't put much stock in what Gaider said. He's the lead writer. He says Duncan is dead; I respect that. But there is room for reinterpretation, since the lack of a body is a loophole. Gaider can be fired tomorrow, and a new writer could pick up on that thread.

The bottom line is that art has a life beyond its creator, and as any fan of popular culture knows, all you really need is a lopphole (even a ridiculous loophole) and enough support behind the notion of a return of a favorite character to convince TPTB that it would be profitable to go in that direction. If a massive number of Duncan fans took out an ad in Variety, and sent beard clippings or whatever to the  BW offices in Canada, I'm sure BW might reconsider if Duncan is truly, truly dead.

They left the door open. They could just have easily closed it entirely, like they did with Cailan. They didn't. I don't feel bad for keeping hope alive, despite Gaider's pronouncements.

Modifié par tmelange, 21 mars 2010 - 03:36 .

[tmelange]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Of the options presented it seemed like having him as an ally against the broodmother was more important than trying to take him out. One curious thing about him wanting our blood, but technically we also want theirs. Also he showed no malice towards me at that time, same for the messenger although the Architect did have dragons attack me and kidnapped me. But I saw no reason to attack him at that time.

I killed the Mother quite fine without his help, lol, and was happy to take care of him too without having to chase him all over Thedas and throughout the deep roads. )

[Spartansfan8888]

WHAT ABOUT THIS.... "A darkspawn is an empty soul-less vessel, a grey warden is not..." - Riordan in Origins.



Does the Architect's version of the joining give the darkspawn a "soul" in any way? If so, disciples could become wardens themselves, possessing the taint necessary to destroy an archdemon. If not, then efforts to become independant are in vain anyway. The Architect would find the old god, kill it to prevent a blight, and end up being the next vessel for the archdemon to turn back into the dragon.

[tmelange]

UnAffectedFiddle wrote...

We dont know anything about their race. Broodmothers are horrid, yes. But its the result of a race devoid of free will. 

*snip*

Seems to me to be the result of a race devoid of their own females, rather than anything to do with free will. Unless we see a female darkspawn somewhere, I doubt there is a solution to this basic biological problem -- beyond the solution we provide to them by serving as their hosts.

It disturbs me how many guys on this thread seem to think the broodmother situation is no big deal, or something that can be figured out later, or is somehow something that can be mitigated by the strategic sacrifice of women to the "cause" of peace. I wonder if there are any women who feel this way?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Gilsa wrote...

tmelange wrote...

In the notes and journals, the Architect refers to Valanna's sister as an "it" and says maybe he should have just killed it while it slept.

Actually the Architect uses the "her" and "she" pronoun when talking about the sister. "It" only shows up in the final line, which I interpreted as referring to our Warden since he had just put us to sleep.

I think "it" refers to the Mother.

EDIT: or the Archdemon.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 mars 2010 - 03:35 .