226 réponses à ce sujet

[FatSoDa]

@Blind Bard You are allowed to have the opinion that a person has less human rights simply because they favor a particular sexual orientation. You are not allowed to actively work to reduce a person rights, because of their sexual orientation.



Supporting Mr Card by giving him money allows him to further his goals with that money. Boycotting is an old and very useful form or protest.



To answer the question about the politician if he stood on a "Family Values" platform and pretended to uphold values to get votes, while sleeping with another person. Then yes that does make him a bad politician, it also makes him a bad person.



@UpiH You seem to be implying that i am intolerant or filled with hate. I am not. I tolerate Mr Card, i simply don't accept that he is right, or that he has the right to decide for others what is right. Thats why its called Religious Tolerance not Acceptance.



Just as he has the right to spout of his hateful nonsense i have my right to rebut it.



@sierra-357 I disagree i think by rewarding and supporting an author who has views that i find abhorrent i am allowing him to continue those views. Simply put more money in his pocket means more chances to say things that i find reprehensible and act towards restricting the rights of people who have committed no crime.



@Chris Priestly

You state that you wished people could have stayed on topic? Mr Card speaks openly and often about his views on homosexuality. As a result such views are public record. The public perception will be that anything relating to Mr Cards writing will be affected by his views.

Im not one of those people who believe we have rights past the right to play, we dont have the right for instance to demand better of a company we have come to expect to support self determination, after all isnt that the catch cry of all of bioware games? No i dont believe we have that right. I do believe i have the right to express freely my concern over biowares support of a homophobic bigot. I do also believe that i have the right to let you know that i will not buy any bioware product that Orson Scott Card has any hand in making.

[FatSoDa]

Further to this. Just so that we all understand who we are talking about. This is the nature of the views you would have us accept.



"laws against homosexual behavior should remain on the books, not to be indiscriminately enforced against anyone who happens to be caught violating them, but to be used when necessary to send a clear message that those who flagrantly violate society's regulation of sexual behavior cannot be permitted to remain as acceptable, equal citizens within that society."



Taken directly from here "nauvoo.com/library/card-hypocrites.html"



Doesnt quite gel with Bioware's message or apparent corporate ethos does it?

[UpiH]

@FatSoDa: Aren't you judging a book by the cover there? Expressing one's view in a legitimate way on an entirely different forum vs at least trying to hamper one's work are two separate things.

Yeah, I've seen some critics regard Ender's Game as spouting fascist ideas, yet I'd not be so quick to judge a person's literal works based on third hand information. Usually, in these days people making such accusations make me take them with a grain of salt.

I'm not very much aware of his actions in your society but judging by his writings both in his site and in his books he just makes clear where he stands. You don't have to be a triangle in order to be a good trigonometry teacher or a Perfect Man in order to be a good writer.

Modifié par UpiH, 25 mai 2010 - 01:28 .

[UpiH]

Ooops, double post while trying to edit a typo.

Modifié par UpiH, 06 avril 2010 - 01:22 .

[FatSoDa]

@UpiH my example isn't third hand information its first hand that essay was written by him. I never accused the man of being a fascist. I don't believe he is. He is however a homophobic bigot, and i will not support him. And i am free to say that i wont support, and i wont support any bioware product that he is a part off.

[UpiH]

Looks more like you are actively trying to hamper his work by multiple nicks and other tricks. Have you seen him at your jobsite, perhaps, speaking against you and your views? If he doesn't like gay people, does it make him a homophobe? What about folks, who'd cut your throat for kissing a woman (or a man, for that matter) on a main street, for instance?

Looks like you've an agenda. Anyway shooting from the bushes with multiple monikers vs speaking out loud with one's own name are different things, entirely.

Modifié par UpiH, 06 avril 2010 - 02:30 .

[FatSoDa]

UpiH wrote...
Looks more like you are actively trying to hamper his work by multiple nicks
and other tricks.
Yes i am this is the essence of boycotting.

Have you seen him at your jobsite, perhaps, speaking against you and your views?
If he doesn't like gay people, does it make him a homophobe?
No simply not liking gay people doesn’t make him a homophobe, speaking the
public forum about restricting the rights of gay people, implying and outright
suggesting that all gay people are sex offenders waiting to happen makes him a
homophobe.

I welcome him to my workplace. I'll not post it here as my work (web host technician)
isnt really applicable to this conversation. He is welcome to contact the
administrators and get my personal email. Contact me and come to my work for a
lively and open (and definitely recorded)debate on the topic of human and civil
rights. 

What about folks, who'd cut your throat for kissing a woman (or a man, for that
matter) on a main street, for instance?
Well i would certainly oppose their beliefs as well, or at least i would oppose
their actions. I don’t care what Orson Scott Card believes, i care that he acts
on those beliefs to hurt, restrict or take away the human and civil rights of a
group of people who only want equality.

Looks like you've an agenda.
I certainly do have an agenda. My agenda is i dont like that a company i liked for so long now employs a well known bigot. My agenda is one boycott. Its not really a secret i have been quite open about it.

Anyway shooting from the bushes with multiple
monikers vs speaking out loud with one's own name are different things,
entirely.
Ahh, now im a coward? Bit harsh but i can see your point. My name is
Brian-Thomas Carbin. I live in Canberra, Australia i am 30 years old and in a
loving and committed long term relationship. I personally protest Orson Scott
Cards involvement with Bioware. I believe that using someone like Orson Scott
Card is beneath Bioware, and step away from the ideals of fairness and equality
enshrined in its games.

Modifié par FatSoDa, 06 avril 2010 - 02:58 .

[UpiH]

Fair enough. I'm a Finn, I don't think we have so many issues with human rights as the Americans do - or maybe most of us regard those as a private matter and prefer keeping the nose out of other people's businesses.

[master-fluff]

UpiH wrote...

Fair enough. I'm a Finn, I don't think we have so many issues with human rights as the Americans do - or maybe most of us regard those as a private matter and prefer keeping the nose out of other people's businesses.

It would be great if Orson Scott Card felt the same way as you and kept his nose out of other people's business. 

I'm really surprised BioWare want to be associated with this homophobic rightwing fundie.  Count me as another who wouldn't touch this comic with a 10' bargepole.

[Surango]

Has no one ever found it curious how humans, even if it's a very small percentage, are the only creatures on the planet that are willing to have intercourse with a same sex partner?

[FatSoDa]

@Surango

Sorry mate thats wrong. You need to Google Homosexuality and Animals.

"news-medical.net/news/2006/10/23/20718.aspx" is probably the most reputable source online. Otherwise go to your local zoo and ask one of the keepers (not tour guides) if they have heard or seen it.

[Aesthioseae]

UpiH wrote...

Fair enough. I'm a Finn, I don't think we have so many issues with human rights as the Americans do - or maybe most of us regard those as a private matter and prefer keeping the nose out of other people's businesses.

As a finn who keeps his nose out of other people's business, it strikes me as strange that you would so contend another person's point of view on the employment of someone whom he disagrees with fundementally.

Lets use our own examples here: There is a man, and he goes about his work at the office without needless time expended, furthering the company more and more, each and every day.

One day, this man is made CEO, and you are an attractive woman underneath him, as his secretary or some such. He harasses you with comments, and inappropriate touching. You want to speak out against this man, but... DAMN is he good at his job...

The point is, is that there are many brilliantly shining stars out there, with pretty words and honest hearts. But even in older writers you see that glint of hope that things will change, and the world will become better, and stronger, and more understanding. That is what I look for in art. I don't look for an okay story with a hateful message. There's no foam in my maw, by the way. I'm just constantly shaking my head at a hack with just enough talent.

[UpiH]

Harassing men at work isn't just stating a point of view in my books. If someone elsewhere has stated an opinion, this is not the place to discuss it. We are way off topic here. If, however the artwork as such violates human rights, you can count me in should you choose to critisize it.



Whether OSC is a bigot or not remains to be seen. For me he doesn't appear as such.

[Aesthioseae]

However, it doesn't remain to be seen. It has been cited. Several times throughout this thread. He holds to opinions that are dated back as far as 1984, using those sources to further his own thought-process on the subject of gay-rights. The problem with this, is that he uses them as his source of "credible information on the subject", neglecting more recent peer reviewed, and case-study information that cite those sources as being untrue and largely predjudice. I.e. the reason people are calling him a bigot.



By and large, Bioware community site is a place of business, and the sharing of ideas. His views affect some of the people who are buying the product. These people are helping to keep this company working and afloat. They choose who they buy from, and many of them won't offer OSC their patronage.

[Bowie Hawkins]

UpiH, the problem that I (and others) have with OSC is that his stated views on homosexuiality - that homosexuals "cannot be permitted to remain as acceptable, equal citizens within ... society" - clash with the society of Dragon Age's acceptance and equality for gays and bisexuals.

I was excited when I heard that a DA comic was going to be published, but once I heard that OSC was writing it, I could not in good conscience buy it.

[FatSoDa]

UpiH 
How can you doubt that holds the views when he states with clarity what those views are. Here again for the cheaps seats he talks about the simple act of having sex.

"laws against homosexual behavior should remain on the books, not to be indiscriminately enforced against anyone who happens to be caught violating them, but to be used when necessary to send a clear message that those who flagrantly violate society's regulation of sexual behavior cannot be permitted to remain as acceptable, equal citizens within that society."
 
As for this being off topic. I dont see how. The man is a part of the topic. We are simply asking how Bioware and the Dragonage team more specifically justify the inclusion of such an obvious homophobe into their writing team.

The man is on the public record a number of times for his views on homosexuality. Once we purchase a finished working product from Bioware we dont have right to demand, patches or DLC or anything really. What we do have a right to do is express our discontent that a man who is quickly become more famous for his hateful views and actions is now a part of the writing team for a product that Bioware is offering.

[Surango]

@Fatsoda

That study is all over the internet. There's also no data charts, no conditions, whether it was performed in the wild or in captivity, or the credentials of the author. At best, this is a hypothesis.

[UpiH]

I see. he seems to have written that in the Sunstone magazine in 1990. For the most part the writing (on the wall if you like?) was about the Latter Day Saints and what kind of outlook - in his opinion - they should assume.

He's just a conservative acting along his beliefs. I for one wouldn't join in that club or any club that'd accept me as a member for that matter. Let them wallow in their righteousness for all I care. “According to your faith let it be to you.”

Is this the passage that irks you so?

"This applies also to the polity, the citizens at large. Laws against homosexual behavior should remain on the books, not to be indiscriminately enforced against anyone who happens to be caught violating them, but to be used when necessary to send a clear message that those whoflagrantly violate society's regulation of sexual behavior cannot be permitted to remain as acceptable, equal citizens within that society.

The goal of the polity is not to put homosexuals in jail. The goal is to discourage people from engaging in homosexual practices in the first place, and, when they nevertheless proceed in their homosexual behavior, to encourage them to do so discreetly, so as not to shake the confidence of the community in the polity's ability to provide rules for safe, stable, dependable marriage and family relationships."

Anyway, attacking a man who has stated his opinion, right or wrong, elsewhere has little to do with Dragon Age in the end. You'll find people disagreeing your views everywhere, are you denying their freedom of speech too? As I said, there are much worse folks around. OSC just happens to be an easy opponent since he doesn't seem to bother to back up his stand in these forums.

Read it all:

http://www.nauvoo.co...hypocrites.html

Modifié par UpiH, 06 avril 2010 - 07:43 .

[FatSoDa]

@Surango

This probably is widely off topic. However the reason you wont find much information on the study is that it was done at the university of Oslo, Norwegian, is not an easily translatable language (so im lead to believe by, ironically, my Finnish friends) You could if you doubt its voracity petition the university for an English translation of the final study. They have to keep one for public dissemination if anyone sponsored it (i,e corporations or private concerns) or if it was used for a masters or doctoral thesis. They just dont have to keep one in English.

[FatSoDa]

@UpiH



SIGH No im not denying him his right to free speech. I'm exercising my right to free speech by disagreeing with Biowares decision to pay him money, because of what he has done with his right to free speech. That is my right.

[UpiH]

Norwegian lingo is similar to Swedish, not at all that difficult to translate. You might get fair results with Babelfish even. Finnish is, most certainly, don't try it on the machines.

[Orion91]

Surango wrote...

Has no one ever found it curious how humans, even if it's a very small percentage, are the only creatures on the planet that are willing to have intercourse with a same sex partner?

You are way off base and just wrong. National Geographic.  

Back to the topic: Anyone know when responses might show up?

[Surango]

All right, I can admit to being wrong.

Modifié par Surango, 06 avril 2010 - 10:58 .

[Jimmy Fury]

I don't know why I'm so anxious for the answers to the questions. OSC will never even see the questions about his homophobia and all that hard work he does for NOM. They'll never reach him.

[Orion91]

They might. Chris said he would relay the questions and that was one of the only questions.