226 réponses à ce sujet

[FatSoDa]

@orion91 I Think ole jimmy was dripping with a bit of sarcasm there

[Jimmy Fury]

FatSoDa wrote...

@orion91 I Think ole jimmy was dripping with a bit of sarcasm there

Unfortunately I wasn't. I honestly don't expect those questions to ever leave this thread. He'll get all the nice questions about the differences between comics and novels, his desire to write for a game, etc. but they won't ask him anything about the gay issue.

It would be nice, but I just don't see it happening.

[demongirl420]

wheres my clotheshttp://social.bioware.com/brc/967354

[sami jo]

@UpiH: OSC hasn't just said some fairly nasty things about gays, he has advocated violent overthrow of the government if same-sex couples are allowed to marry (apparently on the grounds that gays are already allowed heterosexual marriage)

"In the
first place, no law in any state in the United States now or ever
has forbidden homosexuals to marry. The law has never asked that a man
prove his heterosexuality in order to marry a woman, or a woman hers in
order
to marry a man.


Any homosexual man who can persuade a woman to take him as her
husband can avail himself of all the rights of husbandhood under the
law.
And, in fact, many homosexual men have done precisely that, without any
legal
prejudice at all" Link

His rhetoric in response to gay marriage ammendments has been:
"How long before married people answer the dictators thus: Regardless of
law, marriage has only one definition, and any government that attempts
to change it is my mortal enemy. I will act to destroy that government
and bring it down, so it can be replaced with a government that will
respect and support marriage, and help me raise my children in a society
where they will expect to marry in their turn." Link1, Link2

Legal marriage, at least in the U.S. confers a number of legal benefits, and if you had ever been denied entry to your life-partner's hospital room by his/her homophobic family that had not seen him/her in years, those rights would be particularly important to you.  He is free to believe and say whatever he likes (though advocating violent overthrow of the government walks a nifty legal line that may or may not be a crime).  He uses his income to advocate the oppression of others, and as such, I choose not to financially support him.  His views also tend to bleed into his writing, which would make anything he writes fairly unappealing to me.

Wagner was a phenomenal musician and a raving anti-semite.  I would not have paid him to play at my (Jewish) wedding.  Comparisons with long dead artists of questionable morality who cannot benefit financially from me appreciating their work and use that money to help oppress me are not entirely appropriate.  I find it entirely appropriate to ask if BW intends to alter the treatment of gay/lesbian/bi characters or women in the DA universe.

Again, I have no objection to OSCs personal beliefs or expression of those beliefs until his expression starts interfering with my ability to express my own beliefs.  I'd be tickled twenty shades of pink if the government got out of the business of telling consenting adults what they can do together entirely.

[Wicked 702]

Here's my problem. I've been reading Card for years and had NO IDEA about any of his political views. So you put me in a delicate situation, deny myself and others the enjoyment of reading some really awesomely written books or financially support the views of someone I vehemently disagree with.

It's a tough choice I tells ya!

[sami jo]

Wicked 702 wrote...

Here's my problem. I've been reading Card for years and had NO IDEA about any of his political views. So you put me in a delicate situation, deny myself and others the enjoyment of reading some really awesomely written books or financially support the views of someone I vehemently disagree with.
It's a tough choice I tells ya!

Buy used.  Enjoyment had and financial support aimed elsewhere.

[UpiH]

sami jo wrote...

@UpiH: OSC hasn't just said some fairly nasty things about gays, he has advocated violent overthrow of the government if same-sex couples are allowed to marry (apparently on the grounds that gays are already allowed heterosexual marriage)

"In the
first place, no law in any state in the United States now or ever
has forbidden homosexuals to marry. The law has never asked that a man
prove his heterosexuality in order to marry a woman, or a woman hers in
order
to marry a man.


Any homosexual man who can persuade a woman to take him as her
husband can avail himself of all the rights of husbandhood under the
law.
And, in fact, many homosexual men have done precisely that, without any
legal
prejudice at all" Link

His rhetoric in response to gay marriage ammendments has been:
"How long before married people answer the dictators thus: Regardless of
law, marriage has only one definition, and any government that attempts
to change it is my mortal enemy. I will act to destroy that government
and bring it down, so it can be replaced with a government that will
respect and support marriage, and help me raise my children in a society
where they will expect to marry in their turn." Link1, Link2

Legal marriage, at least in the U.S. confers a number of legal benefits, and if you had ever been denied entry to your life-partner's hospital room by his/her homophobic family that had not seen him/her in years, those rights would be particularly important to you.  He is free to believe and say whatever he likes (though advocating violent overthrow of the government walks a nifty legal line that may or may not be a crime).  He uses his income to advocate the oppression of others, and as such, I choose not to financially support him.  His views also tend to bleed into his writing, which would make anything he writes fairly unappealing to me.

Wagner was a phenomenal musician and a raving anti-semite.  I would not have paid him to play at my (Jewish) wedding.  Comparisons with long dead artists of questionable morality who cannot benefit financially from me appreciating their work and use that money to help oppress me are not entirely appropriate.  I find it entirely appropriate to ask if BW intends to alter the treatment of gay/lesbian/bi characters or women in the DA universe.

Again, I have no objection to OSCs personal beliefs or expression of those beliefs until his expression starts interfering with my ability to express my own beliefs.  I'd be tickled twenty shades of pink if the government got out of the business of telling consenting adults what they can do together entirely.

Pretty revolting rhetoric, I'd say. He uses his writing skills to their full extent and then some. Has he been sued for it?

The link for Mormon times didn't work, gives a 404 (Not Found) error.

However, speaking against him here is tantamount to him coming to your workplace, scolding you to your boss/employer, telling: In his opinion you're gay or whatnot, monsters, whatever because you've had the gall to write about him and his ilk and demanding your boss s/he should fire you on the grounds of it.

As far as I know, he's not been taking your freedom of speech away from you or hampered your daily business.

That's the problem. I disagree with him, but I'd defend to death his right to his opinions to paraphrase Miss Tallentyre.

Modifié par UpiH, 09 avril 2010 - 01:19 .

[sami jo]

UpiH wrote...

sami jo wrote...

*snip* for brevity's sake

Legal marriage, at least in the U.S. confers a number of legal benefits, and if you had ever been denied entry to your life-partner's hospital room by his/her homophobic family that had not seen him/her in years, those rights would be particularly important to you.  He is free to believe and say whatever he likes (though advocating violent overthrow of the government walks a nifty legal line that may or may not be a crime).  He uses his income to advocate the oppression of others, and as such, I choose not to financially support him.  His views also tend to bleed into his writing, which would make anything he writes fairly unappealing to me.

Wagner was a phenomenal musician and a raving anti-semite.  I would not have paid him to play at my (Jewish) wedding.  Comparisons with long dead artists of questionable morality who cannot benefit financially from me appreciating their work and use that money to help oppress me are not entirely appropriate.  I find it entirely appropriate to ask if BW intends to alter the treatment of gay/lesbian/bi characters or women in the DA universe.

Again, I have no objection to OSCs personal beliefs or expression of those beliefs until his expression starts interfering with my ability to express my own beliefs.  I'd be tickled twenty shades of pink if the government got out of the business of telling consenting adults what they can do together entirely.

Pretty revolting rhetoric, I'd say. He uses his writing skills to their full extent and then some. Has he been sued for it?

The link for Mormon times didn't work, gives a 404 (Not Found) error.

However, speaking against him here is tantamount to him coming to your workplace, scolding you to your boss/employer, telling: In his opinion you're gay or whatnot, monsters, whatever because you've had the gall to write about him and his ilk and demanding your boss s/he should fire you on the grounds of it.

As far as I know, he's not been taking your freedom of speech away from you or hampered your daily business.

That's the problem. I disagree with him, but I'd defend to death his right to his opinions to paraphrase Miss Tallentyre.

As I said (bolded above), he can believe and say whatever he pleases.  Suggesting otherwise would validate his position that he should have the right to dictate my beliefs, and I would defend his right to believe and say whatever he wants.  My issue is that he uses his income to fund groups such as NOM, a group that he is a board member of, to fund attempts to limit my freedoms.  Others may purchase his work purely to support those efforts, but I don't wish to fund my own oppression.  And it isn't quite the same as going to his workplace and telling someone to fire him for his views.  I am genuinely concerned that they will bleed into the lore of the DA universe.  BW is using his name as a selling point for this comic.  They could have associated with a host of other big-name writers, but they chose him.  If he were an anonymous person on the writing team and his views were expressed in the writing of the game, I wouldn't buy the game for that reason.  If his views impact the product that is put out, I don't see why his views shouldn't be grounds to not purchase it. 

And yes, he has been taking away my freedoms and hampering my daily business.  It is still legal in 26 of 50 states in the U.S. to fire me for my sexual orientation (but not legal to fire him for his religious views), and he has actively supported efforts to keep those laws on the books.  He has also supported efforts to keep homosexual sex a crime.  Becoming a convicted felon for making love to another consenting adult would rather hamper my freedom and business. 

I'll support his freedom of speech right up to the point that his freedom of speech begins to interfere with my freedom to simply exist.  I'm not protesting the existence of the heterosexual romance only group here.  I can agree to disagree with them, or debate with them, but they should be free to state their opinions. 

[Revya]

Here are 2 reviews of the first issue



http://www.comicbook..._review&id=2064



http://uk.comics.ign.../1081264p1.html



Even more reason not to buy.

[UpiH]

sami jo wrote...
And yes, he has been taking away my freedoms and hampering my daily business.  It is still legal in 26 of 50 states in the U.S. to fire me for my sexual orientation (but not legal to fire him for his religious views), and he has actively supported efforts to keep those laws on the books.  He has also supported efforts to keep homosexual sex a crime.  Becoming a convicted felon for making love to another consenting adult would rather hamper my freedom and business. 

Ouch. Upon reading that one, sitting on the fence gets one's bum burned.

Actually he's not been involved in regulating such laws, he just wants them to be maintained. He's just a conservative, sticks to his values and bends over backwards (no pun intented) to make it so, the laws being applied will reflect the values he and his ilk can subscribe to. Methinks, in a democracy, it's the people, who decides which laws should be applied, which should not.

24 out of 50, that means almost 50% of the States do not apply such outdated regulations. Before too long that percentage will raise and that's exactly what he and his ilk are afraid of.
 
Oh well, democracy vs. dictature of the majority. How about writing your congressperson? Lame, but I really don't know any other valid way in a democratic society on top of informing people in any applicable medium.

Wait, you're doing just that, in your own opinion at least. Is this an applicable medium, I really cannot tell, no matter how much I feel your pain.
 

I'll support his freedom of speech right up to the point that his freedom of speech begins to interfere with my freedom to simply exist.  I'm not protesting the existence of the heterosexual romance only group here.  I can agree to disagree with them, or debate with them, but they should be free to state their opinions. 

Aren't you at least a bit exaggerating here? Has he really threatened your very existence?

Modifié par UpiH, 24 avril 2010 - 10:30 .

[sami jo]

UpiH wrote...
Ouch. Upon reading that one, sitting on the fence gets one's bum burned.

Actually he's not been involved in regulating such laws, he just wants them to be maintained. He's just a conservative, sticks to his values and bends over backwards (no pun intented) to make it so, the laws being applied will reflect the values he and his ilk can subscribe to. Methinks, in a democracy, it's the people, who decides which laws should be applied, which should not.
 
Oh well, democracy vs. dictature of the majority. How about writing your congressperson? Lame, but I really don't know any other valid way in a democratic society on top of informing people in any applicable medium. You're doing just that, in your own opinion at least. Is this an applicable medium, I really cannot tell, no matter how much I feel your pain.
 
24 out of 50, that means almost 50% of the States do not apply such outdated regulations. Before too long that percentage will raise and that's exactly what he and his ilk are afraid of.

He uses his financial resources to help keep those laws on the books.  That is his right, and I fully support his ability to do so.  I just won't throw him extra resources with which to do it.  Anyone who wishes to support his agenda should do so.  I think that someone who believes (and actively funds efforts to maintain the laws) that it should be fine to fire me for being attracted to the same sex shouldn't complain when a similar tactic is used on him. 

And again, I am saying that *I* will not support his work.  What others do is a matter of their own conscience.  My only question to BW is whether OSCs views will find their way into the DA lore.

UpiH wrote...

I'll support his freedom of speech right up to the point that his freedom of speech begins to interfere with my freedom to simply exist.  I'm not protesting the existence of the heterosexual romance only group here.  I can agree to disagree with them, or debate with them, but they should be free to state their opinions. 

Aren't you at least a bit exaggerating here? Has he really threatened your very existence?

My meaning was "simply exist" as in live my life and not have to pretend to be other than I am; but, if I cannot find work because of my sexual orientation, it threatens my existence.  If others view me as less than a person because of my sexual orientation and therefore find it acceptable to physically attack me, it threatens my existence.  If I cannot see the one I love in the hospital, or cannot inherit, or magically lose all legal relationship with my child when I cross state lines, it doesn't threaten my very existence, but it certainly threatens things that are dear to me.  The problem with the "debate", at least in the US, is that his side of the argument is coming to the table with the view that I should not be allowed to exist at all.  Period.  There is no room for disagreement.  What I am, the mere fact that I am attracted to the same sex, should be illegal in their view.  I am bisexual and in a heterosexual marriage, but under the laws in many states, the mere fact that I am also attracted to the same sex is grounds to fire me.  So yes, that does threaten my very existence.  I fully support his right to believe that I am going straight to hell for not believing as he does.  He can believe it.  He can try to convince others of it.  He is trying to maintain laws that literally make who I am illegal.  I support the ability of others to fund him.  I will not, and I don't see anything wrong with suggesting to others that perhaps they shouldn't either.  If you think that the value of his writing and the joy that reading it brings you is worth it, then buy his work. 

Edit: To be clear: I do not object to Card's beliefs.  I disagree with them, but that is different.  I do not avoid purchasing things from those I disagree with solely because I disagree with them.  I don't even mind that he has publicly stated his views.  He funds and actively participates in groups that seek to forcibly impose their beliefs on me.  That is what I object to and that is what I do not wish to fund. 

2nd Edit: spelling

Modifié par sami jo, 09 avril 2010 - 04:23 .

[UpiH]

I won't give a penny to a man who supports such horrendous activities. That NOM site made me barf. Are they really that fearful? They're practicing modern day with hunt in effect.

Yuck!

Thanks and kudos to Bioware for letting us to discuss here, even though we were way off-topic.

Modifié par UpiH, 09 avril 2010 - 03:48 .

[sami jo]

UpiH wrote...

I won't give a penny to a man who supports such horrendous activities. That NOM site made me barf. Are they really that fearful? They're practicing modern day with hunt in effect.

Yuck!

Thanks and kudos to Bioware for letting us to discuss here, even though we were way off-topic.

Exactly.  That is the reason for the rather virulent reactions here, and their web-site is the least nasty of their activities.  But yes, I really should stop hijacking the topic. 

[Statulos]

Wicked 702 wrote...

Here's my problem. I've been reading Card for years and had NO IDEA about any of his political views. So you put me in a delicate situation, deny myself and others the enjoyment of reading some really awesomely written books or financially support the views of someone I vehemently disagree with.
It's a tough choice I tells ya!

If you never guessed that he´s a Mormon and by extension, guess what he stands for... I mean, Ender´s Game is blatantly evident on this regard.

If freedom works both ways and he´s allowed to say that homosexuals are traumatized people; I am also very allowed to say that mormons and the whole Space Jesus thing is comicaly insane except for the fact that these people have a quite relevant political and economic power.

Personaly I´d say that if Bioware wanted to strike with nuclear power for a comic, maybe they should have hired Garth Ennis, Neil Gainman; or, if they have the power, contacts and magic... Alan Moore!

All these people are quite different and at the same time, completely consecrated authors that would have done a non-biggoted work.

Modifié par Statulos, 09 avril 2010 - 05:04 .

[Wicked 702]

Statulos wrote...

Wicked 702 wrote...

Here's my problem. I've been reading Card for years and had NO IDEA about any of his political views. So you put me in a delicate situation, deny myself and others the enjoyment of reading some really awesomely written books or financially support the views of someone I vehemently disagree with.
It's a tough choice I tells ya!

If you never guessed that he´s a Mormon and by extension, guess what he stands for... I mean, Ender´s Game is blatantly evident on this regard.

If freedom works both ways and he´s allowed to say that homosexuals are traumatized people; I am also very allowed to say that mormons and the whole Space Jesus thing is comicaly insane except for the fact that these people have a quite relevant political and economic power.

Personaly I´d say that if Bioware wanted to strike with nuclear power for a comic, maybe they should have hired Garth Ennis, Neil Gainman; or, if they have the power, contacts and magic... Alan Moore!

All these people are quite different and at the same time, completely consecrated authors that would have done a non-biggoted work.

Truthfully, I've read the entire Ender's series and I never got much of any underlying impressions. Nowadays, I usually catch such types of "between the lines" symbolism but I read these books when I was just a pup. I will promise, however, to go back and read Ender's Game with a more scrutinizing eye and see if I find the references to which you speak.

Edit: Sorry, Space Jesus? I must be missing something here. Aren't you thinking about scientologists?

Modifié par Wicked 702, 09 avril 2010 - 05:12 .

[Statulos]

I have to admit that to me it was blatantly evident because... I have a Ph.D. in Myth and Compared Religions but still, I think that any American (you guys are used to mormons while many of us, Europeans, still see them as kind of exotic weirdos) with a fair knowledge of what boils in his land should catch it.

[Wicked 702]

Yeah, I'm a Chemistry/Business major so um.....very analytical. But I will go back and read it again because I am quite interested in this issue. OSC was one of my favorite authors growing up so this sort of stuff is quite disconcerting. The book's not long or anything so it shouldn't take more than a few days when I have some time.

......Kind of like how I love Wagner's music but the whole anti-semitism thing....eesh.

Modifié par Wicked 702, 09 avril 2010 - 05:25 .

[sami jo]

I'm going to say, for the sake of clarity, that I am not one to attack Card for his faith. Mormons are not all that common in the U.S. either. Having grown up in a heavily Mormon area I can say that while I disagree with the church on virtually everything, Mormons in general are very nice and respectful. They are not generally the ones promoting the "lynch him!" mentality. It is Card's support of groups like NOM that I object to; and even then not in the sense that I don't think he should be able to hold those views but in the sense that I do not wish to help him spread them.

I agree that he was an odd choice to write for DA. If BW wanted a big name author, there were other choices that would have been less objectionable and whose personal views would have been more accepting of the diversity that has been written in to Thedas already.

[Statulos]

I do hope that the comic at least, keeps the religious ambiguity of Thedas. I really like that trait, just like the real world, and the capacity of your character to give atheist, agnostic or theist answers when asked about religion.



I will not disquilify Scott Card´s writting capacities; he is a very good writter. But being capable of creating art does not make better individuals just as people like Pablo Ruíz Picasso shows.



Personaly I´d have gone to authors like Mike Mignola, Neil Gainman or Alan Moore (dreaming is cheap) but...

[Charsen]

Neil Gaiman would be phenomenal. Sadly, probably too expensive unless they cut back on the famous voice actors. (wish they would, imo, celebrities don't matter, just quality)

[UpiH]

Neil Gaiman you mean? What about good old Enki Bilal?



Hereabouts they say (jokingly) that Mormons are CIA agents since they go door-to-door selling the Book of Mormon. I once let a pair of them in. Poor saps, tried to speak Finnish in a doomed effort to proselytize me (was total gibberish but a good try anyhoo) and me English (basically with the same results). At least I coaxed them to give me the Book of Mormon for free. Have yet to read it tho.



All in all, it's a total waste of time to try and discuss theology with such devoted groups as Mormons or Adventists or Jehovah's Witnesses. Mormons had a good name in my books at the time, mainly because I had read Mr. Card's books.

[Lurchibald]

I liked the Penny Arcade comics, they were the best, just let those guys do it

[Statulos]

Lurchibald wrote...

I liked the Penny Arcade comics, they were the best, just let those guys do it

A Frank Miller/Lynn Varley creation with a part in the Fade like in the hallucination in Hell and Back would be awesome.

Modifié par Statulos, 10 avril 2010 - 03:32 .

[Orion91]

Lurchibald wrote...

I liked the Penny Arcade comics, they were the best, just let those guys do it

That would be awesome.

But so would replies to the questions <_<

Modifié par Orion91, 10 avril 2010 - 05:52 .

[Jimmy Fury]

UpiH wrote...
As far as I know, he's not been taking your freedom of speech away from you or hampered your daily business.

That's the problem. I disagree with him, but I'd defend to death his right to his opinions to paraphrase Miss Tallentyre.

Thing is, freedom of speech only applies to the government. It's not free reign to go around saying any stupid thing without fear of consequence, just the ability to say any stupid thing without fear of government regulation.

We, as private citizens, are not infringing upon his legal rights by telling him to stop saying horrible ignorant (literal sense not popular usage. His views demonstrate a clear lack of knowledge on the subject) things. We are not the law therefore we can't impose any legal restrictions on his speech.

Tricky thing about publishing contracts though... they only get extended if your work will sell. While Bioware, EA, and IDW can't fire him for his opinions (since they're religion based and religion is rightfully protected against discrimination) they can fire him if his work doesn't sell.

That's where we come in.

In Mr. Cards case the consequence is us not purchasing the comics. Hopefully this will result in IDW and EA hiring someone else.
Again, doesn't infringe on any of his legal rights. He can still say any hateful uneducated thing we wants to say. He just won't be getting any of our money while he says it.