226 réponses à ce sujet

[YohkoOhno]

There is a difference between not being politically correct and being a bigot. Would you be saying the same thing if Orson Card thought that women were mentally inferior?

I believe in freedom of speech and true tolerance, that is, we respect the fact that people have different opinions. OSC is a Mormon, and many truly devote religious people will always disagree with homosexuality because it is actually targeted in the old and new testaments, regardless of what I believe about the subject. Freedom of Religion is one of the true tenants of the Constitution.  Regardless of how I myself feel about the subject, I think people will still be arguing about this for decades or even a few centuries.  And that's going to be something that won't easily be dismissed by some. I also don't believe criticism of gay marriage automatically equates bigotry, at least not in the same way as violence against people race, creed, color, or sexual orientation.

We need to learn to get along with others who think differently. That's part of the process of free speech.

Also Kudos to bioware for just blowing this off

Did you guys really think you were going to get to rake him over the coals with questions unrelated to his writing of the comic book?

Modifié par YohkoOhno, 02 juillet 2010 - 01:58 .

[Bryy_Miller]

YohkoOhno wrote...

We need to learn to get along with others who think differently. That's part of the process of free speech.

You know, not to detract from the Q&A session, but there is a difference between tolerance and letting complete BS be thrown around.

[YohkoOhno]

Then attack the message, not the messenger. Use your own Freedom to refute it. But I usually stop short at actively punishing people for their political beliefs, and I can separate the man's own opinions from his work.

Modifié par YohkoOhno, 02 juillet 2010 - 02:11 .

[Bryy_Miller]

YohkoOhno wrote...

Then attack the message, not the messenger. Use your own Freedom to refute it. But I usually stop short at actively punishing people for their political beliefs, and I can separate the man's own opinions from his work.

And some people refuse to, and guess what? That's also a perfectly valid response. It does no good to sit by and say "well, it's okay that he is racist, because he's not the problem. Racism is". 

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Does it really take more than three months to answer a few questions? Because this wait is getting a little ridiculous.

[Orion91]

YohkoOhno wrote...

There is a difference between not being politically correct and being a bigot. Would you be saying the same thing if Orson Card thought that women were mentally inferior?

I believe in freedom of speech and true tolerance, that is, we respect the fact that people have different opinions. OSC is a Mormon, and many truly devote religious people will always disagree with homosexuality because it is actually targeted in the old and new testaments, regardless of what I believe about the subject. Freedom of Religion is one of the true tenants of the Constitution.  Regardless of how I myself feel about the subject, I think people will still be arguing about this for decades or even a few centuries.  And that's going to be something that won't easily be dismissed by some. I also don't believe criticism of gay marriage automatically equates bigotry, at least not in the same way as violence against people race, creed, color, or sexual orientation.

We need to learn to get along with others who think differently. That's part of the process of free speech.

Also Kudos to bioware for just blowing this off

Did you guys really think you were going to get to rake him over the coals with questions unrelated to his writing of the comic book?

I don't think that he should be punished for having an opinion, on the other hand I damn well will not buy something written by someone who says things like "those who flagrantly violate society's regulation of sexual behavior cannot be permitted to remain as acceptable, equal citizens within that society."

I am not alone in not buying his stuff and the sales will drop because of that. Thus bioware not having him write would not be punishment, but just business.

Orson Scott Card is a bigot just like any member of the KKK is a bigot.

To you last part the question I asked him is a fair one. He is bigoted against homosexuals so how does he write a comic about a game that has homosexuals?

[TheMadCat]

YohkoOhno wrote...



We need to learn to get along with others who think differently. That's part of the process of free speech.

Here's the thing about that whole freedom of speech deal. He can make an argument and I'm allowed to disagree with it. He's allowed to act like a bigot, I'm allowed to call him a bigot. He can say homosexuals should rot in hell, I can say he should rot in hell. Freedom of speech isn't the ability to speak, everyone can speak. Rather it's the ability to speak back without fear. There is no "learning to get along", men speaking out against an entire group of people and that group being forced silent because we need to get along with those who think differently is not freedom in any sense. The man is a bigot in every sense of the word and deserves to be labeled as such. You put your thoughts in the public realm expect the public to openly respond.

Anyways, I'm still confused as to why they went with Scott Card in the first place. I understand controversy can be a good thing, but this is kind of like hiring Jack Thompson to run your legal and public relations departments.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Orion91 wrote...
There is a difference between not being politically correct and being a bigot. Would you be saying the same thing if Orson Card thought that women were mentally inferior? 

Also Kudos to bioware for just blowing this off. <_<

Oh, just stop it allready. You hate the guy, you won't buy his comic. Fine and dandy, we heard you the first time.

You know what? I couldn't care less. I don't care if it was Hitler who wrote the comic. If I like the comic I'll buy it. The creator and it's creation are two completely different things.

[Orion91]

If you don't like my post then don't read it Lotion.



They are not separate when the creator makes money from the creation. It's nice to know you support ****s though Lotion.

[Bryy_Miller]

TheMadCat wrote...

Anyways, I'm still confused as to why they went with Scott Card in the first place. I understand controversy can be a good thing, but this is kind of like hiring Jack Thompson to run your legal and public relations departments.

Putting Card in the same category as Thompson is a little more than ridiculous. They went with Card because he is a good writer. He has at least THAT. Jack Thompson is just senile and  biblethumper.

[TheMadCat]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

TheMadCat wrote...

Anyways, I'm still confused as to why they went with Scott Card in the first place. I understand controversy can be a good thing, but this is kind of like hiring Jack Thompson to run your legal and public relations departments.

Putting Card in the same category as Thompson is a little more than ridiculous. They went with Card because he is a good writer. He has at least THAT. Jack Thompson is just senile and  biblethumper.

You missed the point and I mean it just blew by you. My point was there are other, and in some cases better alternatives to Card. Why would you purposely bring in a man who is blatantly against homosexuality to expand on a universe where homosexuality seems to be a common theme. It's about as logical as hiring Thompson, who is against video games as a whole, to be the PR man for a video gaming company. Get it?

[YohkoOhno]

You missed the point and I mean it just blew by you. My point was there are other, and in some cases better alternatives to Card. Why would you purposely bring in a man who is blatantly against homosexuality to expand on a universe where homosexuality seems to be a common theme. It's about as logical as hiring Thompson, who is against video games as a whole, to be the PR man for a video gaming company. Get it?

Because they are not the same thing. First of all, homosexuality doesn't, in my mind, seem to be a "common theme" in Bioware games. All I see is that they allow some same-sex romances. (Which aren't that big a deal in the great scheme of things--just some quick cut scenes). I think it has a minor role in the whole scheme of the game, which is about telling a great story, and being a video game. So your analogy to Thomson is flawed. Secondly, personal beliefs don't always get in the way of telling a good story. From what I see, outside of the man's on religious beliefs, the biggest objection is his political opposition to gay marriage. Well, there's no gay marriage in Ferelden--this is something David Gaider said (It's in one of his prior posts--it's accepted but considered not the norm). So I don't see this interfering with writing a good comic.

Modifié par YohkoOhno, 03 juillet 2010 - 10:45 .

[Lintanis]

Thought this thread was supposed to be about the comic

[Jimmy Fury]

YohkoOhno wrote...
First of all, homosexuality doesn't, in my mind, seem to be a "common theme" in Bioware games. All I see is that they allow some same-sex romances. I think it has a minor role in the whole scheme of the game, which is about telling a great story, and being a video game.
Secondly, personal beliefs don't always get in the way of telling a good story. From what I see, outside of the man's on religious beliefs, the biggest objection is his political opposition to gay marriage.

I would have to disagree on both counts. Watch the trailer for the Leliana expansion, her relationship with a certain someone is clearly a major theme in her story. I wouldn't say it's a common theme in the whole of Dragon Age, but homosexuality is very present in the story no matter what choices the player makes. It's also very clear that said presence appeals to a portion of the fanbase. The same portion of the fanbase should, very much, have a problem with Orson Scott Card writing a comic for the game.

Secondly, I could care less about Card's personal or even political opinions. But you are very very very wrong when you say we should be tolerant of the things he has said.
The man advocates violence. He claims that if gay marriage is legalized then the only course of action is a violent overthrow of the people and their government. The man thinks it's acceptable and rational to kill people if gays can get married.
Nobody should tolerate that kind of thought. Ever. I don't care if you agree with gay marriage or not.

Now, some lessons (again), on the freedom of speech.
You get: the right to say anything you want, that is not an immediately actionable threat, without the government stopping you.
You do not get: The right to say anything without criticism from your fellow citizens. Nor the right to say anything without fear that your fellow citizens will use their market-given powers to completely annihilate your livelyhood.

[YohkoOhno]

Jimmy Fury wrote...
I would have to disagree on both counts. Watch the trailer for the Leliana expansion, her relationship with a certain someone is clearly a major theme in her story. I wouldn't say it's a common theme in the whole of Dragon Age, but homosexuality is very present in the story no matter what choices the player makes. It's also very clear that said presence appeals to a portion of the fanbase. The same portion of the fanbase should, very much, have a problem with Orson Scott Card writing a comic for the game.

But just how big is that fanbase in reality and does it significantly affect sales, and should Bioware policy be decided by a minority of fans.  It's a fair question. 

The man advocates violence. He claims that if gay marriage is legalized then the only course of action is a violent overthrow of the people and their government. The man thinks it's acceptable and rational to kill people if gays can get married.

You are misreading the quote.  This is what he actually says:  "Regardless of law, marriage has only one definition, and any government that attempts to change it is my mortal enemy. I will act to destroy that government and bring it down, so it can be replaced with a government that will respect and support marriage, and help me raise my children in a society where they will expect to marry in their turn."  There is nothing there about killing people, raising an army, etc.  You are the one radicalizing it.  It looks like he's talking about changing the law legally, maybe with, say, an election?  

Now, some lessons (again), on the freedom of speech.
You get: the right to say anything you want, that is not an immediately actionable threat, without the government stopping you.
You do not get: The right to say anything without criticism from your fellow citizens. Nor the right to say anything without fear that your fellow citizens will use their market-given powers to completely annihilate your livelyhood.

Fine lesson, but I'm not so much disappointed at people upset at OSC, but rather those going to Bioware and asking for him to be dropped.  That shows to me you're not just interested in Free Speech, but you want to actively put pressure on people to drop those with different opinions.  And I think that's wrong, and a bit hypocritical.  I don't don't like actively punishing people for their beliefs.

Modifié par YohkoOhno, 03 juillet 2010 - 06:28 .

[Jimmy Fury]

YohkoOhno wrote...
I will act to destroy that government and bring it down

What part of "destroy" and "bring down" alludes to peaceful resolution?
If he meant election why not say "I will invoke the democrat process to prove the will of the people" or "I will champion for the majority rule" or any other possible wording that would have meant election?
The man is a professional writer, surely he knows what he's doing when he chooses those words.
He said destroy and bring down for a reason.

and AGAIN. There is no right to freedom from consiquence. He is free to say anything he wants. He is not free to get my money and spend it to support an organization that advocates discrimination. Simple as that. He could call me names until he runs out of breath and that doesn't bother me. The minute he spent his first dime on NOM he became an active participant in discrimination and that's a lot different.

And hypoctrical? How so?
If he can be an active participant then so can everyone else. If he can choose to spend his money on NOM and urge others to do the same, then why on earth can't we choose not to give him our money and urge people to do the same?

[YohkoOhno]

There is no right to freedom from consiquence. He is free to say anything he wants. He is not free to get my money and spend it to support an organization that advocates discrimination.

Well, that is fine and you're not getting the comic.  I have trouble understanding though, why you "quit the forums out of frustration" because of the delay in the questions being answered, and what you want.  It's easy to boycott the comic.  Are you only here solely to protest the comic?

[TheMadCat]

YohkoOhno wrote...

Because they are not the same thing. First of all, homosexuality doesn't, in my mind, seem to be a "common theme" in Bioware games. All I see is that they allow some same-sex romances. (Which aren't that big a deal in the great scheme of things--just some quick cut scenes). I think it has a minor role in the whole scheme of the game, which is about telling a great story, and being a video game. So your analogy to Thomson is flawed.

What? Between the novels and game there are many instances where homosexuality is at the very least hinted, if not flat out described outside of the player romances. Branka, Heren/Wade, The Pearl, some of Leliana's and Zev's line about their respective countries, Lelaian and Marjolaine, Meghren, so on and so forth. It's well beyond simply being solely involved in the player romances, it's an accepted and somewhat frequent occurence in the culture of certain countries in Thedas.

Secondly, personal beliefs don't always get in the way of telling a good story. From what I see, outside of the man's on religious beliefs, the biggest objection is his political opposition to gay marriage. Well, there's no gay marriage in Ferelden--this is something David Gaider said (It's in one of his prior posts--it's accepted but considered not the norm). So I don't see this interfering with writing a good comic.

Indeed they usually don't get in the way, and I've never claimed they would get in the way here. That's never been part of my debate, ever. Hell he never even has to touch the subject in his works. All I said I found it odd that this is the man they turned to, to expand upon a universe where something he is morally against occurs somewhat often (Or that is the notion presented given the small sample size) and is widely accepted.

As far as his "biggest objection", political marriage isn't it. I wouldn't hold anything against a man if that was the extent of his dislike of homosexuals. The man goes well beyond political opposition and mild distaste and borders on intolerable hatred. Now the man has a God given right to feel that way and I'm certainly not saying he needs to go to a corner and shut up, but he nor anyone should be surprised when others respond to such bigotry with equal venom.

Thought this thread was supposed to be about the comic

Well it was, then BioWare kind of forgot about it and it's gone off in all sorts of directions. When as well give it some use.

Modifié par TheMadCat, 03 juillet 2010 - 10:11 .

[Jimmy Fury]

YohkoOhno wrote...
I have trouble understanding though, why you "quit the forums out of frustration" because of the delay in the questions being answered, and what you want.

Ah, I see why you're confused. You assumed the frustration I mentioned had anything to do with the questions not being answered. At no point did I ever explain the source of my frustration now did I?
If you really must know, even though it has absolutely nothing to do with anything relevant, it was a combination of things that I got fed up with. OSC being only a tiny part of it. Mods ignoring trolls and reports, people "on my side" acting like 3 year olds, the knowledge that OSC would never see a single one of the questions dealing with the GLBT issue, but mostly it was because I got tired of seeing 800 posts about the stupid auction thing since I live in a state that excluded me from it.

But as for what I want and why I'm here that's very simple.
I just want to know what happened to the questions. Over 3 months now, issue 2 is finally out, yet still no word on whether or not anyone working on the comic ever answered the questions asked of them.

[Loerwyn]

TheMadCat wrote...
You missed the point and I mean it just blew by you. My point was there are other, and in some cases better alternatives to Card. Why would you purposely bring in a man who is blatantly against homosexuality to expand on a universe where homosexuality seems to be a common theme. It's about as logical as hiring Thompson, who is against video games as a whole, to be the PR man for a video gaming company. Get it?

Well said.

Someone could recommend the DA comic or Ender's Game to me all they want, and I still won't buy them out of refusal to support Orson Scott Card, simply because of his views.

[knighteffect]

Is there any place that this comic is actually being discussed?

[Bitterfoam]

I'll discuss the comic!



And just to potentially make angry (read: whiny) some people, I'll even state that I gleefully purchased the second issue, which came rather late, either being published behind schedule or it just took that long for my local comic shop guy to get his hands on it.



Regardless, now my hands are on it. Whee!

[Sejborg]

Have the comic been cancelled? I just find it weird that there have only been released two issues, and the release of issue 1 is so long ago, that I start to think that it have been cancelled.

[Bitterfoam]

Sejborg wrote...

Have the comic been cancelled? I just find it weird that there have only been released two issues, and the release of issue 1 is so long ago, that I start to think that it have been cancelled.

That's called "delays."

Welcome to the comics industry. It happens to every single publisher.