24 réponses à ce sujet

[Datacakes]

Or how I stopped worrying and learned to love the Guns:crying:

So I've been playing the Soldier class.  On Insanity.  And I've been thinking to myself this cant be insanity mode.  It's too easy.  Too easy.  So I just finished Samara's Mission which was the first mission I tried after Horizon.  So I'm L11.  Well I went throught and it was a breeze.  So I decided to do a little test.  I will run the same mission and I will purposefully attempt to gimp myself.


1st run:  Took Mordin with Incinerate 4 and Miranda with Leader 4.  Made heavy use of disruptor and incendieary ammo when appropriate for shields and health.  Mirand's warp for barriers.  Use Andrenalin Rush and my 1pt Fortitude liberally.  Use Mordin and Miranda as much as possible.  Conclusion: just too easy.  Solution.  Gimp yo-self fool!

2nd run: Took Grunt and Jack both of whom I have yet to spec a single point into asside from their default 1 pt powers concussive and shockwave.   Do not make use of any ... any ammo powers.  And use Andrenalin Rush liberally but not Fortitude.  Conclusion:  just as easy.

So what gives!?  Is it my elite skills.  Hardly.  Cause I know I have none.  Proof?  I suck badly at the Vanguard, or I suspect it's my xbox controller - yeah, that must be it

On the second run I never ever used an ammo power.  Also I'm on an xbox so it forces us to map a skill power to the right and/or left button.  Also, the right and left button are used to bring up  menus to select between weapons and powers and sometimes, which is annoying, you end up not getting the menu but using a power.  The result.  I ended up accidently mapping incendiary to the assualt rifle and hand canon.  Thus I had to play the last half through with just my sniper rifle because it did not have an ammo power on it.  But it was just as easy. 

So I'm thinking it's not my elite skills.  I think it's my familiarity with the game in combination with the fact that Gun beats rock, paper, scissors, yellow, blue, purple and red.  I started to suspect this when I was playing hardcore mode with my Adept.  She would just tear through baddies with her SMG and sniper rifle.  And I started to suspect this when I played the Sentinel on Insanity with squadmates that had greater than 10 unused points.  They seemed to make little difference and on the 2nd run above they only helped with crowd control.  Which I'll admit was helpfull a couple times.

So I think something is definitly strange with the combat in this game.   I say strange because whats the point of having shields, armor or barriers or biotics or tech if guns trump everything?  At least for the Soldier.

My L11 build with 2pts to spare:

Adrenalin Rush 3
Disruptor Ammo 2
Incendiary 1
Shock Trooper 4
Fortification 1

In an RPG type game I would have never made it through that level without using abilities for that level.  The mechanics don't allow for it.  In  a skill based game.  It would be possible and it is but I guess my point is that what's the point of having what appears to be RPG elements where none may actuality exist?  (Also keep in mind that I really love this game so I'm not bashing it.)

Should I try it a third time but with no power points spent?  Do Soldiers need em?

[Tlazolteotl]

You should try the game on PC.

Apparently, not having auto-aim makes it a very different game.

I wouldn't know, however .. I only play PC.

[Atmosfear3]

Can't say soldiers aren't the easiest class in the game, I mean Bioware intentionally revamped the combat system to favor shooting. Only natural the classes that focus on weapons are the easiest to play, even on the hardest setting.

[ji4rock]

Tlazolteotl wrote...

You should try the game on PC.
Apparently, not having auto-aim makes it a very different game.
I wouldn't know, however .. I only play PC.

What auto aim? On console the if you don't aim you miss. I should know. I miss quite a bit. There was auto aim in ME1, is there auto aim in ME2 for the console?

[Datacakes]

Ok.  I redid the mission with with 23 unused points in my Soldier.  14 unused points in Grunt and Jack.  I'm glad Grunt had 1 pt in concussive and I'm glad Jack had 1 pt in shockwave cause that saved me a couple of times from having to reload that section.  But I did have to restart in one spot cause I ran out of ammo.  And in that same spot I always forget about the toxic canisters.  So that was a reload also.  

As for the auto target. It's kind of a hinderance more than it helps because when your in cover and want to aim someplace, the darn thing moves your reticle from where you're really trying to shoot.  For example it's much harder to shoot a explosive container when theres a Eclipse merc a few feet away.  I'd rather play without it.  But it's not all auto target.  You still have to aim 99% of the time.  It's strange the way it works.

I must admit.  I cheated and took the arc projector which i used on the gunship and at the end because there was like 5 eclipse mercs shooting all over the place.    And I was getting impatient.

I think all that's needed to tweek combat is to make certain mechanics stick and mean something.  For example, if Eclipse has barriers up I should have to have warp or warp ammo.  Or if a Blue suns has shields I should have to have overload or disruptor.   For blood pack, etc...  This would make the game tougher.  I think Bioware is close on their attempt to make some of mechanics mean what they're supposed to mean.  They just need some tweaking here and there.

I think the game is toughest when the baddies rush you.  So perhaps one card that the gun based classes should carry is the ability to burst suppressive fire to qwell them from rushing.  And  tone done the impact of guns so that the gun based classes need biotic/tech based classes and vice versa.   So if I'm a biotics based classes I'll get rushed unless I have a gun based class to complement.  I dunno, whatever,  I still like the Soldier class.  It's lots of fun to play, and Adrenalin Rush is so much fun.

Modifié par Datacakes, 20 mars 2010 - 05:10 .

[Tlazolteotl]

Like I said, I don't know 'cos I only play PC.

I googled it, and people online seem to think there is.

[Datacakes]

Tlazolteotl wrote...

Like I said, I don't know 'cos I only play PC.
I googled it, and people online seem to think there is.

Well, it's not auto target like you would normally think of as auto target.  It mostly gets in the way and makes it harder to play the game.    Are you in cover and want to pop out of cover and shoot an explosive container.  Darnit.  Why is it moving my reticle to somethign I dont wanna shoot.   When you notice it working is when it's doing something you dont want it to do.  When you dont notice it working, it's because you're doing the aiming and have control. 

Besides if there was an auto target like you and I think of as auto target, I wouldn't suck so bad with the Vanguard.

[thisisme8]

Smart playing trumps twitch shooter skills any day of the week.

[Datacakes]

thisisme8 wrote...

Smart playing trumps twitch shooter skills any day of the week.

That's why for my second playthrough in Dragon Age I played a rogue.  Oh was that ever fun.  Poisons, traps and positioning for backstabs made that game seem like a breeze on nightmare mode.  But on the flipside. If I didnt set up correctly, or condition the battle field with my squad mates, I was toast in seconds. Very fun stuff.

Modifié par Datacakes, 20 mars 2010 - 05:37 .

[Tlazolteotl]

I tried a tactical archer rogue in DAO, but found myself getting angry due to forced stupidity.

I.e. a large chunk of the game's combats = conversation, immediately followed by combat in stabby range.

No time to set up, no time to sneak, with the archer in front.

[Athenau]

I think all that's needed to tweek combat is to make certain mechanics stick and mean something. For example, if Eclipse has barriers up I should have to have warp or warp ammo. Or if a Blue suns has shields I should have to have overload or disruptor. For blood pack, etc... This would make the game tougher. I think Bioware is close on their attempt to make some of mechanics mean what they're supposed to mean. They just need some tweaking here and there.

No. Making the game rely on ridiculous hard counters is a horrible idea.

Modifié par Athenau, 20 mars 2010 - 11:57 .

[sinosleep]

ji4rock wrote...
What auto aim? On console the if you don't aim you miss. I should know. I miss quite a bit. There was auto aim in ME1, is there auto aim in ME2 for the console?

It's not auto-aim it's aim assist. Every shooter played on consoles has it.

[Datacakes]

Athenau wrote...

I think
all that's needed to tweek combat is to make certain mechanics stick
and mean something. For example, if Eclipse has barriers up I should
have to have warp or warp ammo. Or if a Blue suns has shields I should
have to have overload or disruptor. For blood pack, etc... This would
make the game tougher. I think Bioware is close on their attempt to
make some of mechanics mean what they're supposed to mean. They just
need some tweaking here and there.

No. Making the game rely on ridiculous hard counters is a horrible idea.

I suppose you and I are the type of people that will always have differening opinions.   I did the exact same mission with 23 unused points for my soldier and 14 unused points for Grunt and Jack.  That's right.  The only powers I had was medigel, 1pt concusiive via Grunt and 1 pt shockwave via Jack.   The rest was guns and a familiarity with the mission.

So what then is the point of having RPG mechanics if they're not needed.  We should have hard counters and dare I say
certain classes should only be allowed certain weapons.  If a solider has access to all weapons he should get a penalty on each for not being a expert in any one. 

Modifié par Datacakes, 20 mars 2010 - 03:41 .

[Kronner]

Datacakes wrote...

If a solider has access to all weapons he should get a penalty on each for not being a expert in any one. 

Soldier is expert in all weapons, hence the Soldier name lol

[sinosleep]

The point is that he IS an expert in every one. Being as the designers were smart enough to realize all Shepards are soldiers and that the game is a shooter they have made it so all the classes are accurate with all the weapons available to them so it's not as if the soldier is more accurate or anything just by virtue of being a solider. So without having the traditional thing to separate the class, they gave it all the weapons.

[Athenau]

I suppose you and I are the type of people that will always have differening opinions. I did the exact same mission with 23 unused points for my soldier and 14 unused points for Grunt and Jack. That's right. The only powers I had was medigel, 1pt concusiive via Grunt and 1 pt shockwave via Jack. The rest was guns and a familiarity with the mission.

That you beat the game with a handicap says nothing about the necessity of implementing ridiculous mechanics like shields being invulnerable to everything but disruptor/overload. Seriously, how does that even make sense? Not only would it make the game extremely tedious to play, it flies in the face of all established game lore.

So what then is the point of having RPG mechanics if they're not needed. We should have hard counters and dare I say
certain classes should only be allowed certain weapons. If a solider has access to all weapons he should get a penalty on each for not being a expert in any one.

Overreliance on hard counters are a sign of bad and lazy game design.  I'm glad the designers didn't subscribe to your school of thought.   They clearly intended powers to be a supplement to the shooting rather than a replacement.

Modifié par Athenau, 20 mars 2010 - 03:49 .

[Bill Hooks]

Familiarity with the mission is the number one factor here; even if there were hard counters, the missions would still be easy when you know how. The only real solution to that would be randomizing the enemies so you're never completely sure what you're going to fight and where they're going to be.

[Lalandrathon]

Example: 2 scion horizon fight. Hard if you actually fight it out. Takes all of 10 seconds if you bring the Cain. Rush straightaway to the left tire pile, aim for the greenish crate/panel/thingie and nuke the place from the get go. Only 1 husk is left alive. Difficulty level is made irrelevant.

[Astranagant]

I'd rather have a good gun than a bunch of fruity magic powers any day.

[CrimsonStout]

Astranagant wrote...

I'd rather have a good gun than a bunch of fruity magic powers any day.

Amen.

[justregret]

Nice reference to Dr.Strangelove,



Yeeee-haaw,

Major Kong out

[Datacakes]

I guess maybe some people are missing the point of the post. Why have mechanics like, shields, armor or barriers and why have - ahem - what appears to be a hard counter to them - when the only item necessary is a gun. That a character doesn't need any points at all spent in the their powers tells me that there separates this game from something like say Gears of War. (At least with

[Athenau]

The presence of a counter is not equivalent to that counter being required.
This isn't difficult to understand.

Modifié par Athenau, 21 mars 2010 - 05:59 .

[Roxlimn]

Agree with Datacakes. The Soldier game is so easy. It's just so boring. I couldn't bring myself to finish it on any difficulty level - even the easiest setting took too long, and Insanity doesn't make things more interesting.



The Soldier game could have been made more interesting if the gun choice was more dramatically different. Say - if automatic weapons did almost no damage to Armor, and anti-Armor weapons being heavily penalized against Shields and Barriers.

[archurban]

soldier class is the best ever. I like to handle a lot of weapons as many as possible because I always want to test how they are so powerful. since I gained all additional armors & weapons (as you know, collector's armor & laser assault rifle, terminus armor & black storm heavy weapon, blood dragon armor, inferno armor, another snipper rifle, Dr. pepper promo items), playing game is even more fun.



especially, I love black storm. it's just beast.