111 réponses à ce sujet

[UsagiVindaloo]

 Just something I've been thinking of, lately. When I first played ME2, I was super happy to find that they'd streamlined the Charm ability into Paragon (and Intimidate into Renegade) because it worked well with my playstyle for that Shepard. In hindsight, though, I think that combining the two elements result in a loss of some subtlety as well as playstyle freedom. I would like to see a return to the old system of a separate Charm/Intimidate skill (perhaps Charisma?) being used for the blue/red dialog options.

My reasoning is as follows:
1) It frees players from the shackles of Paragon/Renegade. At the moment, being a neutral or Paragade Shepard means a lot of problems with certain events (e.g. the Jack/Miranda argument, Tali's trial, etc). Instead of being forced to play pure Paragon or Renegade or having to lose out on vital loyalty etc, you could use a separate Charisma stat to blue/red your way in and out of problems while still being neutral or a mix. Besides, perhaps you want to be a giant massive Renegade jerk but want to charm your way through Tali's trial because you like her; with Charm/Intimidate/Charisma, you can do that.

2) Conversely, it would make a lot of the blue/red choices *mean* something, as opposed to something you just get by playing the game as Paragon or Renegade. Hmm, I have been a bit nasty to people, and oh look, I now have a red option to get into the quarantine zone. I sort of liked it better in ME1 where the appearance of a blue or red dialog option only came about because I'd taken the time to level my Charm or Intimidate skill.

3) It would actually have significant gameplay impact for combat etc. In ME1, I maxed out my Shepard's Charm skill whenever I had the option, to the exclusion of other abilities. For a Soldier with an Assault rifle, this could be a big issue! It made the game tougher, and made the charm options feel like I'd "earned" them with my blood sweat and tears. I like the idea of having a Shepard who has sacrificed a bit of combat expertise in return for his/her silver tongue. 

4) Bringing it all together, it makes for much more variety in terms of playstyle and roleplaying. Do you want to play a short tempered but compassionate Shepard who's as likely to smooth talk you as shoot you? Cool, go level your Charisma. Do you want to avoid all those blue/red copouts and only make the "hard" decisions? Then leave Charisma alone. Whether you want to minmax for combat or minmax for conversation, it's up to you.


What do you guys think? Apologies if old topic is old, but I haven't really seen much discussion on this anywhere, at least not lately.

[TheCrakFox]

I don't like the fact neutral players are punished. I think there should be a single persuasion skill, and it should be the only thing affecting the charm/intimidate options.

[Mallissin]

1.) Bioware likes shackles. They can be really sadistic bastards.

2.) Too complicated.

3.) If you noticed in ME2, skills were downplayed or "streamlined". You're not playing a shooter RPG anymore, Mass Effect is officially an RPG shooter now.

4.) This one will start a "3rd person narrative" debate. Gonna leave it alone.



I like the ideas, games with a lot of choices are nice, but rough with games like Mass Effect that have heavy voice acting.

[ObserverStatus]

I'd like an in game conversation skill which is independent of paragon and renegade. I agree that when making decisions, the player should not be restricted by the game's judgement of which options are good and evil.

[Collider]

Yes. If they did it in ME1, they can do it again. It allows for much easier roleplaying. I may also suggest not requiring Paragon or Renegade points for charm or intimidate, but that may render the points useless...unless they make paragon or renegade

a) Something for people to look at and maybe change some colors at the end of the game

Have do with reputation. The merciful nice guy versus the merciless ends to the means guy.

[Collider]

bobobo878 wrote...

I'd like an in game conversation skill which is independent of paragon and renegade. I agree that when making decisions, the player should not be restricted by the game's judgement of which options are good and evil.

To be fair, paragon and renegade are hardly good versus evil.

[DrunkenGoon]

Yea I agree with the OP.. You can't really play through ME2 without being extremely one sided.. Well not unless you want a bunch of your crew to wind up dead.. With Charm or intimidate at least then you could make any decision you want and still be able to get out of tight situations like Miranda vs Jack or Tali vs Legion..

[mentosman8]

Mallisin, you realize what's being suggested is in fact a "streamlined" version of the ME1 system right? Not sure how you figure it would be rough when it's nothing that wasn't done extremely successfully in the first game. I fully hope for the return of a skill for persuasion instead of using paragon/renegade.

[UsagiVindaloo]

Mallissin wrote...

1.) Bioware likes shackles. They can be really sadistic bastards.
2.) Too complicated.
3.) If you noticed in ME2, skills were downplayed or "streamlined". You're not playing a shooter RPG anymore, Mass Effect is officially an RPG shooter now.
4.) This one will start a "3rd person narrative" debate. Gonna leave it alone.

I like the ideas, games with a lot of choices are nice, but rough with games like Mass Effect that have heavy voice acting.

Well, to be honest, they HAVE done it successfully before... see Mass Effect 1. I found the balance there was just right.

You do have a point about the whole streamlining thing, but I don't think it would be a huge shock to the shooter system if you did it pretty simply. Just have a "Charisma" skill with the tooltip, "Makes you more convincing in your conversations with other people." Same 4 ranks as everything else; in terms of gameplay mechanics, it just unlocks "harder" and harder Charm/Intimidate options (e.g. the Jack/Miranda fight requires a skill of 4) Gun-happy shooter fans don't have to bother with it if they don't want, and it's reasonably clear cut enough so that they understand what it is.

[Collider]

Not sure if the balance was quite right in ME1, even though it was better than in ME2. Specifically how you needed paragon for charm slots and renegade for intimidate slots. I'd prefer if paragon and renegade were a measure of your reputation and played a role in a few choices where the person you are charming or intimidating has heard of you and may be swayed or dismayed by your reputation.

[Prophet0fValor]

I was just about to start a similar thread, cuz I've been thinking about this a lot today for some reason.

I do like the Charisma>Paragon/Renegade, and would make playing as paragade more enjoyable.  Some RL logic for this;  unlike the Hanar I don't have to practice being an ***hole to be an effective ***hole.

Modifié par Prophet0fValor, 20 mars 2010 - 06:31 .

[Mallissin]

I preferred ME1 in many ways too. But Mass Effect is evolving away from it. The Ammo system for one, which I've been told will not be changing again.



I'd prefer to go back to more RPG elements like Usagi suggests as well. I just don't see it happening.



I blame the fact it's being targeted at the Xbox 360. Game Developers seem to think console owners are dumber.

[UsagiVindaloo]

mentosman8 wrote...

Mallisin, you realize what's being suggested is in fact a "streamlined" version of the ME1 system right? Not sure how you figure it would be rough when it's nothing that wasn't done extremely successfully in the first game. I fully hope for the return of a skill for persuasion instead of using paragon/renegade.

Thanks, this was indeed what I was thinking.

Something like this, a 4 level skill called Charisma. Tooltip is something like, "Makes you more convincing in conversation," or "Unlocks more dialog options." Each level can unlock "tougher" options (e.g. Jack/Miranda requires 4 levels) or something like that. Not sure what the specialties would be... perhaps:

• Smooth Talker: Shepard becomes a charming, charismatic and friendly presence. Unlocks all Charm options.
• The Growler: Shepard's presence is so forceful and intimidating that merely a growl will send people running. Unlocks all Intimidate options.

Of course, not sure how Paragon and Renegade would even be useful at that point, but I like the idea upthread of it being more based on your reputation. If you wanted to make it a bit more complicated (within the game engine, not explained to the player), you could always connect them slightly (e.g. you have to have at least, say, 2 Renegade points to start Intimidating, but that's pretty easy to get). Or perhaps acting appropriately to your particular alignment (e.g. a Paragon using Charm) gives you a small bonus to your morality points or something. I just don't want it to be SO tightly tied together so that you can't use your charm/intimidate without your morality coinciding.

Modifié par UsagiVindaloo, 20 mars 2010 - 06:34 .

[Collider]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...
If you wanted, you could have a "hidden" tie to Paragon and Renegade somehow (e.g. perhaps you can't Intimidate unless you have 5 points of Renegade), but much much looser than it currently is.

I'd prefer that to happen only if it has to do with reputation. Realistically however, some people would either not know or not care about Shepard's reputation.

[Knoll Argonar]

Well, if it doesn't mean my Shepard will be blind and don't know how to fire a gun, then yes, please.



A general "Charm" skill (not 2 separate skills, that would be too much points lost) would be cool for that, but I don't think we should avoid the "if you're very Paragon, you can do a lot of Paragon choices" completely, because it makes sense. I don't know, really.



But I support the idea to allow players to be able to be "Neutral" without "punishing" them.

[kraidy1117]

Am I the only one who never had problems with this? I make choices I would make and I always end up full Paragon and Renagde is over the 4th line. I never had problems choosing Renagde and Paragon. I perfer this new system because you can focus on dev your powers, people this is not like DAO or KOTOR where you got a crap load of thigs like skills, attributes, talents ect. I loved the system and had no problem with it.

[Collider]

I did have a problem with the system. I had too many paragon points apparently and I could not intimidate the reporter on the Citadel as I wanted to (roleplaying choices I would make, just like you).

[Prophet0fValor]

How about we actually have to charm or intimidate people?  Instead of an arbitrary "choose blue or red for better outcome (if you have nuff paragon or renegade points)".  If you are charismatic enough the dialogue wheel will have simply "Charm" or "Intimidate" along with the other choices.  When you choose either, this opens another wheel with different choices, but all trying to accomplish the Charm/Intimidate, whichever you're trying.  Some could be more effective than others, you as Shepard have to try to convince this person. This rewards players who actually pay attention to people. More difficult persuasions might require passing multiple checks.  If you don't do to well the outcome may be no better or worse than if you hadn't tried.  And really fudging it up has repurcussions.

I know better than to hold my breath for this in ME3, but does anyone else think this, or something similar, would be an improvement over the current system?

[kraidy1117]

Mallissin wrote...

I preferred ME1 in many ways too. But Mass Effect is evolving away from it. The Ammo system for one, which I've been told will not be changing again.

I'd prefer to go back to more RPG elements like Usagi suggests as well. I just don't see it happening.

I blame the fact it's being targeted at the Xbox 360. Game Developers seem to think console owners are dumber.

Don't even start on the ammo system, this was one of the best things to happen to ME. The combat is alot more fun, fastpaced, fluid and not boring.

[UsagiVindaloo]

kraidy1117 wrote...

Am I the only one who never had problems with this? I make choices I would make and I always end up full Paragon and Renagde is over the 4th line. I never had problems choosing Renagde and Paragon. I perfer this new system because you can focus on dev your powers, people this is not like DAO or KOTOR where you got a crap load of thigs like skills, attributes, talents ect. I loved the system and had no problem with it.

I suppose I'm worried more for those who, say, want to pick neutral dialog a lot of the time, or who swing massively back and forth between one extreme and the other. For example, my third playthrough will likely be a female Shepard who will happily Renegade her way through almost everything, but still loves her crew and has a big soft spot here and there (e.g. oh yeah, she will SO hug Tali). Basically, she'll take every interrupt of either type which will result in some... rather odd scores. My worry is that come Jack/Miranda time, her two pronged approach will end up with not enough of either to make a difference.

[UsagiVindaloo]

Knoll Argonar wrote...

Well, if it doesn't mean my Shepard will be blind and don't know how to fire a gun, then yes, please.

A general "Charm" skill (not 2 separate skills, that would be too much points lost) would be cool for that, but I don't think we should avoid the "if you're very Paragon, you can do a lot of Paragon choices" completely, because it makes sense. I don't know, really.

But I support the idea to allow players to be able to be "Neutral" without "punishing" them.

Yeah, I suppose I can see that. I think perhaps that having Charm check your Paragon or Renegade for certain options might be okay, but the amount should be much lower than it is and much more dependent on your Charm score.

[Knoll Argonar]

Prophet0fValor wrote...

How about we actually have to charm or intimidate people?  Instead of an arbitrary "choose blue or red for better outcome (if you have nuff paragon or renegade points)".  If you are charismatic enough the dialogue wheel will have simply "Charm" or "Intimidate" along with the other choices.  When you choose either, this opens another wheel with different choices, but all trying to accomplish the Charm/Intimidate, whichever you're trying.  Some could be more effective than others, you as Shepard have to try to convince this person. This rewards players who actually pay attention to people. More difficult persuasions might require passing multiple checks.  If you don't do to well the outcome may be no better or worse than if you hadn't tried.  And really fudging it up has repurcussions.

I know better than to hold my breath for this in ME3, but does anyone else think this, or something similar, would be an improvement over the current system?

Well, they DID something like that with Morinth.

If you choosed some right-wheel option after you start a topic in the bar, then you will be able to charm/intimidate her, and not screw up the mission.

[kraidy1117]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

Am I the only one who never had problems with this? I make choices I would make and I always end up full Paragon and Renagde is over the 4th line. I never had problems choosing Renagde and Paragon. I perfer this new system because you can focus on dev your powers, people this is not like DAO or KOTOR where you got a crap load of thigs like skills, attributes, talents ect. I loved the system and had no problem with it.

I suppose I'm worried more for those who, say, want to pick neutral dialog a lot of the time, or who swing massively back and forth between one extreme and the other. For example, my third playthrough will likely be a female Shepard who will happily Renegade her way through almost everything, but still loves her crew and has a big soft spot here and there (e.g. oh yeah, she will SO hug Tali). Basically, she'll take every interrupt of either type which will result in some... rather odd scores. My worry is that come Jack/Miranda time, her two pronged approach will end up with not enough of either to make a difference.

I have done that and I was able to have no problems. I have a Paragon who took all interupts, was nice to the crew, picked upper and lower very offten and other stuff. I think the system was fine,

[Mallissin]

kraidy1117 wrote...
Don't even start on the ammo system, this was one of the best things to happen to ME. The combat is alot more fun, fastpaced, fluid and not boring.

*hisses* You're a filthy Xbox owner, aren't you?

Anyway, as I said I'd prefer it got back to more RPG elements, like more skills including the return of Persuade and Intimidate like Usagi suggests. But I've lost my optimism in anything getting better in ME3. I'm just along for the story now.

[Bigdoser]

who would want a leader who is neutral people would rather have someone who has a stance imo. Also I agree with what kraidy said and i doubt bioware will change it back to the way me1 done it.