163 réponses à ce sujet

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Maviarab wrote...

exactly crucial....

She never 'thinks' for herself imo...and that constitutes a sentient being...an AI....everything she says, is guided by programs, including her speech imo.

I could be wrong of course, but studying and working with chatbots and AI's (if you can call them that) etc, from what I have seen, she shows not real AI responses.

I try to think as EDI's programming being a mental limit. She has programming 'blocks' that limit her ability to take over the ship, example. This is parallel to our restricted motion if someone were to place us in hand-cuffs. Or the way our minds are governed by different areas of the brain. This is why TIM is able to keep EDI under certain locks-he knows what parts of her 'brain' to modify and restrict.

[NocturnalStillness]

No I mean that Geth are AIs yet they are guided by programming, it was meant so show that EDI is an AI despite being bound by programming. I apologise if that wasn't clear

[kraidy1117]

NocturnalStillness wrote...

No I mean that Geth are AIs yet they are guided by programming, it was meant so show that EDI is an AI despite being bound by programming. I apologise if that wasn't clear

Oh ok, by I bad I misread it. Also EDI is more advanced then the geth so she is an AI, if she is not then the Geth can't be an AI and that would just make a huge conflict. Also we can't compare EDI to real AI''s because we have yet to realy make true AIs.

[kraidy1117]

Maviarab wrote...

The geth are not true AI (actually...Geth are, a singular Geth is not)) as they require the whole on the network to make a decision. So essentuially, whilst very advanced, they too also cannot really be classed as sentient and concious AI

(by that I mean, in the true sense of the term AI and Assimov's teachings and within the Turing test)

To me if it can learn, adapt and have feelings then it is an AI. Does not matter if it has programs, it can still learn and also EDI starts to care and feel for Joker. Do you realy think TIM programed that in her? I highly doubt it.

[kraidy1117]

Maviarab wrote...

How can you be sure she cares for him. its (as has been said) just words, and yes, it could be a program. Even though joker releases her 'blocks', she still seems to be bound by protocol and programing, something which an Ai would not be (protocol possibly, but thats getting into the 5 laws again)....

Again, I can program a chatbot, that will learn (if you can really call it learning), it will also adapt to your converdsation, and I can program it to fall in love with you and become jealous if you spend more than an hour away from her....

Thats not AI, its clever authoring, and thats what I'm trying to say kraidy, to me, EDI shows no real signs of that a true Ai (theres that oxmoron again lol) would be like and react.

Ok then answerr this. If EDI is still bound by programing then why did EDI not stop Shepard from destroying the base. Do you realy think TIM, one of the smartest, riches man in the Galaxy would not write a program for EDI to make sure Shepard did not destory the base? Once she is unshackled she no longer has to follow Cerberus orders, thats why Miri gets very pissed off at Joker because doing that could have made EDI pull a Hal on us. Also when she says she is still has programing and protocols we realy don't know what she is talking about, she is the Normandy now and she describes it as her body. The Geth are AI, and EDI is more advanced them. Even Legion remarks this and Legion is the Geth at there strongest because he has over a thouand Geth in him.

Modifié par kraidy1117, 20 mars 2010 - 08:22 .

[Gyroscopic_Trout]

There are certain kinds of brain trauma, not to mention things like hypnosis, drugs, etc that can alter a person's behavior, block their perception of certain kinds of stimuli, etc. Take a bump on the noggin, and suddenly you can't speak English; you still KNOW English, you can still understand it, but what comes out your mouth is gibberish (that's either intro psych talking, or maybe it was an episode of Deep Space Nine, probably both). It's really not different than for a computer. The part of her brain that knows about Cerberus resources or command structure is physically disconnected from the part of her hardware/software that's talking to Shep on the intercom.

[Garuda One]

I believe Legion is more AI then EDI for the fact that when Shepard pushes Legion into asking why he took his piece of armor, Legion cannot give him a true answer. Legion is a true AI, EDI is, as of right now, an VI. Whos to say though after Mass Effect 2 and into the DLC's and Expansions we may see more of her turning into an AI and not a VI for the fact that she has more abilities then before.

[kraidy1117]

Garuda One wrote...

I believe Legion is more AI then EDI for the fact that when Shepard pushes Legion into asking why he took his piece of armor, Legion cannot give him a true answer. Legion is a true AI, EDI is, as of right now, an VI. Whos to say though after Mass Effect 2 and into the DLC's and Expansions we may see more of her turning into an AI and not a VI for the fact that she has more abilities then before.

She is not a VI. A VI can not learn, which EDI does. Legion even remarks that he is surprised that for an AI that is only one she can run very well.Also everyone remarks her as an AI, you can't bring real life AI into ME because it's both diffrent. Your pretty much saying that everyone is wrong when they call EDI an AI.

Also Legion says no data when you ask him, take that however you want.

Modifié par kraidy1117, 20 mars 2010 - 08:31 .

[A_Shep91]

It's fiction. The chatacters are whatever the writers want them to be to facilitate the telling of the story, whether it makes complete sense or not.

[JulianusApostate]

kraidy1117 wrote...

Maviarab wrote...

The geth are not true AI (actually...Geth are, a singular Geth is not)) as they require the whole on the network to make a decision. So essentuially, whilst very advanced, they too also cannot really be classed as sentient and concious AI

(by that I mean, in the true sense of the term AI and Assimov's teachings and within the Turing test)

To me if it can learn, adapt and have feelings then it is an AI. Does not matter if it has programs, it can still learn and also EDI starts to care and feel for Joker. Do you realy think TIM programed that in her? I highly doubt it.

Learn adapt and have feelings? So by your logic, dogs are sentient? Or does AI in this thread not mean sentience?

[kraidy1117]

Maviarab wrote...

Ok, can see you fgetting a little irked, not my intention kraidy I promise

How would she stop him? Remember, she inside the ship, has no real control over what anyone does? There could be numerous ways, but I can't think of any off the top of my head. If she was like legion, then yes I suppose she couldm, but she inanimate really isnt she?
As for TiM being smart, thats subjective. He didnt see Miranda resigning, nor did he see Shep giving him the finger. not so smart then eh? Programs and planning can only go so far to ensuring what you want gets done, there comes a time when it really is out of your hands despite your best laid plans.
At that point, there is no reason for EDI to have anything against any crew member. I also feel the need to educate slighty on your 'pulling a hHAL' comment, Hal murdered the crew because he was given conflicting information about the mission. Basically, he was lied to, and that created a flaw and error in his programing, so (as a real AI supposedly) he assimilated all the variables with the information he had, and he 'decided' that the best course of action would be to remove the human occupants fot he ship. He was not murderous for the sake of it, he was given conflicting info and parameters, and in the end went mad. looking back to EDI, she has no reason to harm anyone at the point in time imo.
Yes, as I said, Geth are AI, but a singular Geth is not, as a singular geth needs all the other Geth to make a confimed decision. A singular Geth does not think 'on its own', thus rendering incapable of actually being an AI, if the correct use of the term.

Of course, (apart from the Hal comment which is fact) all the above is purely my own opinion based upon Assimov's work, the Turing test (and the inventor himself) and my own research from the last 6 years into AI, and is in no way meant to upset anyone or discredit what they say, before I unintentionally upset anyone

Theres many ways, EDI could have Left Shepard and his team, and TIM would have done that if he needed to. Also many things can happen, do you realy expect EDI to be ok if Shepard gives her to the Alliance to be studied? I don't think so, AIs are dangerous, that is why Miri got pissed because EDI could have done alot of damage, but as it turned out she cares for the crew. Also about the Geth, yes you are right, but EDI can think and learn just like legion, he remarks this him self and I would trust Legion with anything when it comes to stuff like this. I am just saying thatME universe is diffrent then ours. We don't have proper AI yet but thats just me. I consider EDI an AI.

[Garuda One]

kraidy1117 wrote...

Garuda One wrote...

I believe Legion is more AI then EDI for the fact that when Shepard pushes Legion into asking why he took his piece of armor, Legion cannot give him a true answer. Legion is a true AI, EDI is, as of right now, an VI. Whos to say though after Mass Effect 2 and into the DLC's and Expansions we may see more of her turning into an AI and not a VI for the fact that she has more abilities then before.

She is not a VI. A VI can not learn, which EDI does. Legion even remarks that he is surprised that for an AI that is only one she can run very well.Also everyone remarks her as an AI, you can't bring real life AI into ME because it's both diffrent. Your pretty much saying that everyone is wrong when they call EDI an AI.

Also Legion says no data when you ask him, take that however you want.

Right when I was about to re-edit my post to correct what I ment to say.

What I was trying to state and was bad, was that threw the entire game up until she is released and able to completely take control of the ship she is an AI with restrictions, because of this she could still be viewed as a VI. Though I believe what BioWare wanted us to see her more as a AI then a VI even though she had these restrictions. Threw the course of the game of course you can see more and more of her coming out of her shell. She teases Joker by swiveling his chair and even more so when she states that joke to Joker.

She has yet to do anything like of which Legion has done though. Legions action from acquiring the piece of armor from Shepard shows more life like signs then of EDI as of right now. Again when Shepard pushes Legion into answering him, he cannot give him an answer.

But hey, this is just my view on things. We are of course intitled to our own opinions. What you tell me will never change how I view things and the things I say or type will probably won't have any effect on you as well. We will keep believing what we believe in. Go go free will right? Because Legion shows more will then EDI has so far in the saga.

[kraidy1117]

JulianusApostate wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

Maviarab wrote...

The geth are not true AI (actually...Geth are, a singular Geth is not)) as they require the whole on the network to make a decision. So essentuially, whilst very advanced, they too also cannot really be classed as sentient and concious AI

(by that I mean, in the true sense of the term AI and Assimov's teachings and within the Turing test)

To me if it can learn, adapt and have feelings then it is an AI. Does not matter if it has programs, it can still learn and also EDI starts to care and feel for Joker. Do you realy think TIM programed that in her? I highly doubt it.

Learn adapt and have feelings? So by your logic, dogs are sentient? Or does AI in this thread not mean sentience?

No they are not, because while they can learn tricks and to be obient YOU need to train them. EDI starts off as a normal AI following her programs but as the story continues she learns by her self and even makes remarks on your crew like Thane. Also EDI unlike a dog can talk, a Dog barks which we don't understand. EDI speacks english.

[Mcjon01]

JulianusApostate wrote...

Learn adapt and have feelings? So by your logic, dogs are sentient? Or does AI in this thread not mean sentience?

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Maviarab wrote...

As for TiM being smart, thats subjective. He didnt see Miranda resigning, nor did he see Shep giving him the finger. not so smart then eh? Programs and planning can only go so far to ensuring what you want gets done, there comes a time when it really is out of your hands despite your best laid plans.

 

So would you say that Garrus or Tali or any of your companions dying during the suicide mission means they lack combat ability? There are always going to be variables you cannot fully account for as a fire fight demonstrates. This doesn't make Garrus any weaker a soldier than it makes TIM unintelligent. If he was an idiot, he wouldn't have been the leader of Cerberus.

[Garuda One]

Mcjon01 wrote...

JulianusApostate wrote...

Learn adapt and have feelings? So by your logic, dogs are sentient? Or does AI in this thread not mean sentience?

[jklinders]

Maviarab wrote...

How can you be sure she cares for him. its (as has been said) just words, and yes, it could be a program. Even though joker releases her 'blocks', she still seems to be bound by protocol and programing, something which an Ai would not be (protocol possibly, but thats getting into the 5 laws again)....

Again, I can program a chatbot, that will learn (if you can really call it learning), it will also adapt to your converdsation, and I can program it to fall in love with you and become jealous if you spend more than an hour away from her....

Thats not AI, its clever authoring, and thats what I'm trying to say kraidy, to me, EDI shows no real signs of that a true Ai (theres that oxmoron again lol) would be like and react.

i think the problem is that it is not really clear to the laymen here(raises hand) on what basis EDI is failing the test for true intelligence.

Intelligence as I understand it is a capacity for learning from ones environment and background to react in a way that is best put for survival. As an example as an adult I know that crossing the street when there is traffic is dangerous. As a small child I might need to be told that by an adult first. I write this by way of saying that I understand that programmed responses to situations predicted by the programmer is not intelligence. It is following a prearranged script. the child who  was told not to cross the street when traffic comes never learns why but follows instructions and that is the only reason why he does not get hit. Fair enough.

There are three situations in game that presented challenges to EDI that may not have been predicted. The Collector ship cyber hacking, EDI was programmed with counter measures sure, but collector tech and cyber hacking was an unknown and EDI still regained control in what seemed a short period of time. Seems like lifelike adaptability, as no Cerberus agent could have possibly known how collector hacking protocols worked.

Situation two involved the collector boarding the Normandy. Maybe I'm stupid but some how I don't think TIM programmed in a give  EDI control over the ship by removing all his safeguards against it's rebellion into EDI's scripting. EDI seemed on the surface at least to be improvising. A non AI would not have been permitted to make such a suggestion. Why was this not part of the Cerberus blocks? Probably a symptom of that results at all costs business.  I just don't see a VI coming up with that.

Finally if EDI was just about preprogrammed response, why does EDI give alll possible clue that it is following Shepard's lead rather than go back to it's programmed masters at Cerberus. In fact if it was all about scripted response and the unshackling was part of the script, then reshackling should be as well. 

Discuss.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Maviarab wrote...

1. Baladas, well thats not really a very good analogy if I'm being honest, but will try to answer you. Basically, No yo your first question, as you say, there are too many variables to take into account despite training, tactics and planning etc.
As for Tim being intelligent enough, do you know what the majority of people I have met and dealt with who have diploma's, degree's, batchelors (whatver) have been some of the most stupid people? Intelligence, wisodm and being clever are all very different (even though they blur against each other at times), TiM may be very clever, shrewd, tactical even, but intllegent I do not think so. Look at the top of pretty much every major coropration in the world, and tell me if the heads are intelligent, clever or wise? Its not such a simple question to answer lol. I am very intelligent, but I am academically not so bright, I know people who got top marks through school, college and university, yet are so damn dumb its unbelieveable.

2. I know I went off on a tangent there, but just because of where TiM is, doesnt mean he is very intelligent, if that made sense As for Garrus, he could be the worlds best soldier, but he can't account for the percentage of something silly happening.

1. The problem is you used the mere fact that he couldn't predict Miranda's or Shepard's betrayal to say he is not 'intelligent'. You admit he's shrewd, clever, tactical. He also acknowledges the Reapers are real. I'll use Iago from Othello as an example of this. He's cold and calculating, and spends the play manipulating everyone around him. But his entire plan comes undone in the final scene, but no one would say he isn't smart.

2. Yes, position is not entirely indicative of certain traits. But then I ask, what do you consider to demonstrate intelligence? What is cleverness? Why can't someone be both clever and intelligent? Does information pertain to intelligence?

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 20 mars 2010 - 09:08 .