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[ejoslin]

Red Frostraven wrote...

PERSONAL biases?

Even Loghain is purer than Morrigan.

Let's make a short list..:

-She WANTS the warden to enslave souls of the innocents into golems, KNOWING that enslaving them traps them and controls them.
No respect for the living.

-She APPROVES if the warden kills innocent elven slaves to gain a minor health boost.
No respect for the living.

-She approves of killing Connor, knowing there's two better alternatives where one leads to noone getting killed.

And that is from the top of my head, and I've yet to play through the game as an evil character... I'm sure there's more definately evil acts she agree to.

Sten is practical and honest, and is rather neutral.

Morrigan is dishonest, stupid and rather evil.
Stupid, because she lacks the mental capacity of realizing the concept of strength in numbers: she disapproves of dialogue choices that leads to YOU getting power because you did not intimdate or hurt anyone to acchieve that power.
She's a brute savage, and evil: Growing up in the wilds does not excuse you for supporting plain out senseless murder, slavery, imprisonment and forcing other people's wills for temporary personal gain.

She's not a cat playing with mice, she is a rat playing with mice, not realizing that there's cats in the world, and that she's a rodent herself.

Hmmmm, how many lives would making volunteers into golems save I wonder...  not such a black and white issue as you make it out to be.  MANY more people would be saved by keeping the anvil, saving orzammar, greatly reducing the darkspawn threat.  There are compelling reasons to keep it.  It's evil mainly because of the potential for abuse.  It can do a LOT of good though.

Killing an abomination that has killed nearly an entire village, tortured elven servants, can mind control.  Yeh, it's really a good alternative to go and leave him for a few days while you collect the mages, though if you haven't been to the circle yet you have been hearing rumors about all sorts of unrest at the circle as well.  Yep, that makes sense.  Also, according to the law and the religion of the land, abominations HAVE to die.  

She does believe in power and survival -- but, you know, she's not out deliberately hurting people.  Nor is she steamrolling everyone who gets in the way of her personal agenda.

Edit: She does disapprove of being sent into the fade to confront a demon by herself without being asked, but it's -1 and, really, I think very understandable.  She was raised by an abomination.  She knows better than the warden how dangerous it really is.

Modifié par ejoslin, 21 mars 2010 - 01:58 .

[Red Frostraven]

Crrash wrote...

Red Frostraven wrote...

She does lie at some point.

why do you insist that she HAS to lie?

Because a lot of people claim she doesn't.

Point is: She will do the ritual..:

1: If flemeth lives and she loves the warden
2: If flemeth dies and she loves the warden
3: If she doesn't get any of the grimoires
4: If she hates you
5: If her relationship towards you is neutral
6 - 999: In any other scenario or combinations of scenarios

That leads me to the belief that she doesn't do the ritual for the sake of the warden, at all -- as she will do it in any possible case, helping the warden is an inescapable side effect.

In any case, she will leave if you refuse to give her what SHE WANTS -- it's all about what she wants.
Heck, sacrifice Allistair whom she hates, and she still disapprove because she doesn't get what she wants.

...
I wish I killed my dog, because he can be tainted, and I always figured she could get what she wanted out of him through shapeshifting.
Finally, I believe that if the warden denies her, the Last Old Warden will suffice and be used for any following game using a game import: Allistair, the Warden, or that last old warden.
Or dog.

Modifié par Red Frostraven, 21 mars 2010 - 02:03 .

[Behindyounow]

Hell, even if you hand her over to the Templars she comes back for the old god soul. She doesn't care a wink about the warden, she's doing it all for the dark ritual.

[ejoslin]

Behindyounow wrote...

Hell, even if you hand her over to the Templars she comes back for the old god soul. She doesn't care a wink about the warden, she's doing it all for the dark ritual.

Hmmmm, one doesn't necessarily mean the other.  Morrigan can fall in love with a male warden -- just because she doesn't necessarily do so doesn't mean it doesn't happen.  Her motivation IS to do the dark ritual; that doesn't mean that other things don't develop.  

All your characters have their own motivations.  It doesn't mean that they're not worth spending time with and getting to know.  Or that if you develop a relationship that it's "false." These romances were meant to be real, with the character not using sex and feeling to manipulate. Morrigan doesn't want to fall in love, Morrigan doesn't want the FemWarden to be her best friend.  That it can happen, and will happen with a little time and effort, shows that she's not pure selfish evil.  If she were, she'd delight that the Warden starts to care for her, rather than feeling that she isn't worthy.

[sylvanaerie]

I usually take it and since (by the example of Awakenings) it doesn't seem to matter much what you decided I won't worry bout it. I got my "happy ending" in Origins and thats all I really needed.

[Bigdoser]

Addai67 wrote...

Red Frostraven wrote...

And that is not evasive and or questionable, coming from a woman who endorse murder of innocent slaves to gain a minor health increase through a ritual performed by a slaver??

I don't think anyone would say that the ritual is not questionable.  Obviously it is mysterious and unsettling.  I believe you misunderstand Morrigan's point of view, however.  She sees power as means of survival.  The Wardens, as she knows better than you do at that point and as Flemeth has known since long before your PC's time, are the only ones who can defeat the Blight.  What she suggests is terrible, obviously, but there is rationale for her to propose it beyond something so simple-minded as "that witch is vile."

You don't see Morrigan going around killing people wantonly to gain blood magic power, do you?  She specifically distinguishes herself from maleficar and abhors the methods of darker mages, including her mother.  For instance, she tells Leliana that her mother's stories chilled her blood and haunted her dreams, and that she dreaded being told she had to participate in the sex games her mother played with (presumably) Chasind men.

It's also worth mentioning that she refers to the child's soul as a possession within the child, rather than a part of the child.
She more than indicates that the soul of the old god is precious.

I don't follow you here.  What are you trying to say?

You might be interested in this comic which depicts a scene that was going to have been put into the game but ended up being left out.  it was intended to show that Morrigan had difficulty going through with the ritual.

Wow that comic was helpful. That filled some gaps about the dark ritual.

[CalJones]

My interpretation is that, whilst Morrigan can come to care for, or even love, the Warden (depending on gender/romance choices), the ritual is already planned. She's not doing out of the goodness of her heart. If she genuinely cares about the Warden (and I believe she does, in most cases), it's an additional motivation, but it's not the sole motivation.



Now, as to whether it's a good thing depends on your view of the facts. This particular archdemon is the corrupted form of Urthemiel, the dragon of beauty, and might turn out to be a benevolent being once freed of its taint. This does rather depend on how Morrigan raises it and how she plans to use its power. There are a lot of ifs and buts here, so a cautious Warden is right to be sceptical of this option.



However, the fact remains that there are but three wardens remaining, which does mean there is a high risk of failure. I'm going to go ahead an assume that the archdemon soul would find its way to Morrigan's child even if slain by a non-warden - that being the case, it does seem like a pretty sensible option.



I think your choice also depends on your character and how they view the various options.

Andrey, my bloodmage (the chap in my avatar) was a bit of a bad boy. He was already sleeping with Morrigan so when she suggested making a god baby with him, his ego couldn't say no. He wasn't keen on dying either, but mainly it was about the ego-trip.



My Cousland male was engaged to Anora and took the bargain because he didn't want to play the odds. He's partly in it for the power, but also thinks Anora's pretty hot stuff and he wants to be around long enough to marry her and become prince consort. This character was quite benevolent but also pragmatic - the deal seemed like a sensible option to him, so long as Morrigan took the child far away.



My female Dalish was romancing Alistair until he decided to make himself king and dump her. She'd had a big mistrust of humans and had put that aside for him, so she was devastated. Feeling vengeful, she turned Morrigan down and let Alistair throw himself on the dragon. That gave her closure. She then returned to her people. Her decision was made out of her own heartbreak and had little to do with whether Morrigan's plan was sound or not.



My female arcane warrior spared Loghain and rather liked him, so although she told him of Morrigan's proposition, she respected his wishes not to go through with it. He ended up taking the final blow.



I think you can come up with plenty of justifications as to why you should or shouldn't take the bargain. There are powerful arguments for and against.

[sylvanaerie]

@CalJones



Good RP answers for why and why not go with it.

[Layn]

Red Frostraven wrote...

That leads me to the belief that she doesn't do the ritual for the sake of the warden, at all -- as she will do it in any possible case, helping the warden is an inescapable side effect.

yes. so true. you ARE completely right. in THAT case.
again: she always offers the ritual, but it it can be for different reasons.

Red Frostraven wrote...

In any case, she will leave if you refuse to give her what SHE WANTS -- it's all about what she wants.
Heck, sacrifice Allistair whom she hates, and she still disapprove because she doesn't get what she wants.

she disapproves of Alistair for being so "weak" and picks on him to get his act together, but she doesn't hate him outright. She wants the blight over as much as anyone else and for that it'd be bad to have the only people who can stop it be weak. this has nothing to do with the ritual (again, only in the case that she became a friend or lover)
friendship and love seriously confuse her. she wants to protect them, but then suddenly the person who claims to trust her, rejects her help. The warden will die now no matter what, theres nothing she can do. So she leaves.

if you do the ritual and talk to her at the final battle and make your final goodbyes, and again insist that you are friends, she nearly tears up. I don't believe she can be that good of an actress.

Red Frostraven wrote...

I wish I killed my dog, because he can be tainted, and I always figured she could get what she wanted out of him through shapeshifting.

my god, WHY? EVERYONE in the game except you, alistair and riordan can be tainted. and what do you thinlk she could get out of the dog? and anyway she can shapeshift into A dog, but not a specific

Red Frostraven wrote...

Finally, I believe that if the warden denies her, the Last Old Warden will suffice and be used for any following game using a game import: Allistair, the Warden, or that last old warden.
Or dog.

Riordan is a) supposedly a warden for too long wouldn't have sex with her.


... and why dog?

CalJones wrote...

My interpretation is that, whilst
Morrigan can come to care for, or even love, the Warden (depending on
gender/romance choices), the ritual is already planned. She's not doing
out of the goodness of her heart. If she genuinely cares about the
Warden (and I believe she does, in most cases), it's an additional
motivation, but it's not the sole motivation.

it is planned, but she doesn't feel well about it anymore, as the comic shows

Modifié par Crrash, 21 mars 2010 - 02:54 .

[Gill Kaiser]

Red Frostraven wrote...

dream_operator23 wrote...

When you ask if the child will be harmed, her response refers to whether it will be harmed by absorbing the soul of the archdemon...she is not talking about later in the child's life. You can tell because she says that you can't even call it a child yet, so she is obviously referring to the embryo.

I only did the ritual once with Morrigan, because that character had come to rely on her so much and really needed her with him in the final battle. I don't like to do the ritual if I can finish without her because she flat out refuses to tell you what she will do with the child and to me that doesn't bode well for future events.

When she sais "Ignoring that after but one night IT could hardly be called a child..."
That DOES maintain it's original meaning if you rewrite it as both:
1: "the child will hardly be a child one day after birth"
2: "the child will hardly be a child one day after conception"

You are right.
She may be evading the question by nine freaking months.

Something tells me you're anti-abortion. I'm right, right? Is there some kind of religious thing going on here?

[Venatio]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Something tells me you're anti-abortion. I'm right, right? Is there some kind of religious thing going on here?

Lets not open up that can of worms please.

In the end, whether the Dark Ritual is seen as some sort of faustian deal or as a means to something greater remains to be seen. Only Bioware can answer that question.

Modifié par Venatio, 21 mars 2010 - 03:02 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

bobobo878 wrote...

Aesthioseae wrote...

What sources can you use to legitimate these claims?

The game, of course. After you slay Flemeth, Morrigan tells you that she is likely still alive.  It is important to think of the entity in question as the demon which came to Flemeths aid long ago, not the woman it possessed long ago.  This claim is reinforced by Morrigans response to "Is she human?"  I think it is safe to assume it will prefer the baby to morrigan based on "Three Billy Goats Gruff" logic, with the troll preferring the largest goat to feast on.

Didn't the troll get its ass kicked by the largest goat in that story?...

[Sarah1281]

[quote] She approves of killing connor for god's sake, when you could be trading for power with the demon!! [/quote]

So you think it's LESS evil to potentially sacrifice Connor's mom to give Connor a few years reprieve before the demon comes back and claims his soul again? Trading for power with a demon isn't in any universe a moral thing to do and given how everyone you meet in the game tells you that demonic bargains never end well (just look at Connor and his bargain to save his father, for instance) this just goes to show that she doesn't seek power at the cost of any common sense. While she may not be keen to help Redcliffe, the attacks could very well get you killed, you don't get anything out of saving them except gratitude, Eamon will help you anyway, and you really have no reason to believe he'll help except Alistair's 'oh he was a great guy before he abandoned me to a life of enslavement to the Chantry when I was ten.'

[quote] When she says "Ignoring that after but one night IT could hardly be called a child..."That DOES maintain it's original meaning if you rewrite it as both:
1: "the child will hardly be a child one day after birth"
2: "the child will hardly be a child one day after conception"
You are right.She may be evading the question by nine freaking months. [/quote]

I really don't get where you got that idea from. You ask about what will happen to the child in the future if it absorbs the soul tomorrow and she says that when the fertilized egg that only would have divided a handful of times (although she wouldn't know the science) absorbs the soul it will not be harmed and feels that that is too soon to be called a child. Whether she's right or not, saying that someone who has actually been born for an entire day is not a child is both really stupid, illogical, and nowhere in what she said.

[quote] Dragons have roughly the intelligence of a dolphin, and don't use magicin Thedas. Read codexes more. [/quote]

I think that was Word of God.

[quote] Besides, SHE wants us to charge Loghain naked without the aid of Redcliffe, the elves or dwarves, and would probably suggest to do the same with the archdemon. [/quote]

When you ask her opinion on where to go, she points out that were Loghain not in the picture you'd have an easier time on your quest and be safer. She doesn't really understand much of human society nor do I think she really even understands who he is (she calls him 'this man Loghain') and if it were at all feasible to go to Denerim and murder him, doing so would make your life a lot easier. The fact that she doesn't argue when Alistair tells her that's impossible indicates that she realizes that.

[quote] She doesn't care for armies, as long as they're not obtained through evil means. She sides with the werewolves despite them obviously being weaker than the elves. (evidently, because you cut through them like a lava axe through soft butter) She likes golems, she likes werewolves... she hates the weak who make the fight against the darkspawn POSSIBLE through their taxes and food production... Besides. Zethran CREATED the werewolves. Doesn't she see the power in THAT? If not, she is blind, favoring the weak product of a mage over the mage that produced that interesting product. [/quote]

She cares about what is stronger and she doesn't lose approval if you side with 'good' people as long as you can convince her that you're actually working to gather your army and not just coddling weaklings who should be able to handle their own problems. If they can't deal with their own issues, how can they help you? The elves are helpless against the werewolves and you manage to slaughter your way to the Lady wtih four people. I can understand why she doesn't really have faith in an entire tribe who is helpless.

You can't say the werewolves are weak because you can kill them easily as you can kill the Dalish even more easily. Werewolves are more powerful than the elves who rely on bows and arrows rather than being physically powerful. Anyone can learn to shoot a bow if they practice long enough but not everyone can be as capable a fighter as the werewolves naturally are. As for the weak providing food and tax money...she's not advocating mindless slaughter of everyone you meet. Let the peasants support the stronger people but if they have problems with the undead then leave them to it. It's really not part of the Grey Warden job description to save everyone you meet. Even Duncan doesn't do more to aid the City Elf than end them some weapons and that situation was pretty dire.

Zathrian crated the werewolves, true, which you don't find out about until you meet with the Lady. That's one powerful and old mage who probably won't risk his life in the fight and whose skill in turning humans into werewolves says nothing about his battle prowess. In fact, if he were that skilled you have to wonder why he didn't just kill the whole group of humans. He certainly has enough hatred for it.

Even if she realizes how powerful Zathrian is, he's just one guy. The rest have proven completely useless against the werewolves and even he can't take them out on his own. That kind of points towards the werewolves being stronger than him, no matter who created them. You could say that Morrigan creates the God-child and yet you really can't say that she's stronger than it becaues of that.

[quote] 2: That logic is flawed. Alistair plus the warden is stronger than Morrigan. Does that mean they, in her opinion, should have the right to kill her for power?How does she measure who is powerful enough to be allowed to live? Had she been raised by someone else than flemeth, she might have turned out to be one of those weaklings she despises like most mages become. [/quote]

We don't know that, especially at the beginning. And Morrigan doesn't believe that only the single strongest should kill everyone weaker than them she thinks that those who are capable of taking care of themselves should not be brought down by circumstance or to help those that can't. Morrigan, regardless of who'd win in a fight between her and the Wardens, cannot seriously be called weak and she doesn't need anyone to come riding to her rescue (not counting, of course, when you attack Flemeth but to be fair she IS a centuries-old abomination who managed to save you from Ostagar of all places). And if you take Morrigan to the Circle Tower you can point out that she was almost like them and she'll agree with you and not lose any approval for helping them. I haven't seen her say anything about how the apprentices who haven't done their Harrowing (if she even knows about that) are weak and deserve their fate but once they are full mages and grow into their full potential and they STILL choose to be slaves to the Chantry, that's when she loses patience with them.

[quote] 3: Then she's stupid or have had her ears glued shut.We took out the petty undead from the castle who's only strength was in numbers, and connor is under the surveilance of a small army. She knows firsthand that power can come from demons, and she does approve of killing Isolde to enter the fade as well.So arguing that she doesn't know the alternatives, or that she's afraid isn't true. [/quote]

And no one actually thinks that will be enough. You really think, say, Morrigan or Wynne on their own couldn't take down the maybe two dozen men Ser Perth brought with him to the castle? Cononr is possessed by a demon and is very powerful. Not powerful enough that he can't be killed by the PC, but then again neither is the Archdemon. Just because Connor's army is wiped out then doesn't mean that he can't start over when he kills the people left in the castle.

Why wouldn't she approve of killing Isolde? She volunteered and that is the most sound plan for saving Connor as no one had any idea if he was going to just lay low during the two-day round trip to the Circle - possibly more if you haven't saved them yet or if they won't or can't go. Morrigan does know the alternatives but it's a huge risk to take for the sake of someone who was foolish enough to make a bargain with a demon and who already has a willing blood sacrifice if he absolutely must be saved. Besides, if Jowan is dead or you make him leave and not come back and she and Wynne are both in your party, she's the one who explains how you can save Connor. She doesn't think it's practical, but they would have had no choice but to kill the kid if it weren't for her.

[quote] 4: When at any point in the game did she NOT want you to bargain with demons for power?Did she not object to letting the demon free in Asunder. She did not object to the demon possessing the man in the Mage tower. She approves of going into the fade through Isolde's sacrifice, but NOT by the help of mages saving them both??She must metagame to believe that bargaining with demons doesn't end well, too. Besides, my bargain with the demon went just fine, BECAUSE I went to the mage tower and grew powerful enough to intimidate the demon to leaving and giving me more power. [/quote]

She calls Connor foolish for that very thing if she's in your party when you find out he's an abomination. If you send her in to confront the demon then she says she knows better than to deal with them when they try and strike a bargain for Connor's soul with her. Going to the mages could end badly and is really unnecessary for the ultimate goal of eliminating the threat Connor-the-abomination represents. Why should she care if the Arl's family gets a happy ending? It was Isolde's stupidity in trusting a blood mage provided by Loghain and keeping Connor's abilities secret and Connor's foolishness in trusting a demon that got them into that mess in the first place. As for your bargain...that's not really a bargain that's terrifying the demon and how is she supposed to know that a demon would be scared enough of you to just freely offer up their bargaining tool?

[quote] she was not too hyped to goto the fade when i made her do my first play thru, she might have been all for killing Isolde but got a bit grumpy when i asked her to head off to the fade to kill the demon. [/quote]

Irving has to be talked into it as well. This is very dangerous for them, after all, so it's understandable that they're not volunteering. Irving feels he's done enough by providing the means for the ritual and Morrigan thinks the ritual is unnecessary in the first place but enthusiastic or not they'll both do it.

[quote] Which means that Morrigan lies when she says Flemeth intends to take over her body. [/quote]
Does it? Morrigan knowing she'll need to do a ritual - and having some idea what the ritual is as she's not stupid and probably won't do one if she doesn't know what it's for - and knowing she'll need to get pregnant doesn't really indicate to me that Flemeth's not out to get her. Maybe she intends to possess her after she's pregnant or the baby's born. Flemeth is old physically and even Morrigan expresses doubts that her mother can get pregnant by normal means so perhaps she's relying on Morrigan being a normal-ish human for the ritual and then taking her body.

The confrontation in front of Flemeth's hut does have her laughing at you when you ask her if she intends to body-snatch and say that while Morrigan may know how she lives so long you might not, but she refuses to promise that she won't come after Morrigan and if you refuse to tell her why Morrigan wants her dead, she speculates that it's because her daughter learned something disturbing. Possibly not body-snatching but disturbing enough to try and have her mother killed anyway. And it can't just be that she wants her mother out of the way as she doesn't bring the subject up until she gets her mother's old grimoire so she sees SOMETHING in there she doesn't like and thinks she needs to weaken her mother because of, even if it's not what we think.

[quote] I wish I killed my dog, because he can be tainted, and I always figured she could get what she wanted out of him through shapeshifting. [/quote]

...Really? If GW can sense the taint in people and Ruck can sense it in you (although different, he admits) then surely if your dog was a GW then you could sense it as well. If you turn Morrigan down then the ritual does not happen. How can you be sure? Because you or Alistair/Loghain dies when the soul jumps into your body and you live when the embryo is there to absorb the soul instead.

[Red Frostraven]

Gill Kaiser wrote...
Something tells me you're anti-abortion. I'm right, right? Is there some kind of religious thing going on here?

I'm anti spawning evil godchildren, ever since Throne of Bhaal, thankyouverymuch.

Besides, my whole point really beaks down to..:
The PLOT in the game is to destroy the awakened (and darkspawn-corrupted) old god, who CREATED the darkspawn in the first place before it was put to sleep/coma/whatever.

Morrigan basicly sais: 
"Let me give birth to that old god who's minions killed and scared off all the gray wardens bar four -- after you defeat it and lose half of ferelden in the process -- and I promise I will try to raise him properly to be a good god (or snatch his body) before the evil old god reborn in the child can start another  blight or create another legion of mindless creatures like the darkspawn or screw up the world in some other way."

I don't trust she's up to the task, to be honest, and I simply don't trust a woman who lies/decieves someone to get that person to kill her very own mother, whom plans to have sex with you from the second you meet no matter the circumstances.

Someone said she didn't like the idea of mating with chasind. But for power, she's willing to screw -- excuse me -- absolutely any man or dwarf in ferelden.

Modifié par Red Frostraven, 21 mars 2010 - 04:39 .

[Layn]

waitwait? Red struck a deal with a demon? who in their right mind makes a deal with a demon to get more powerful? thinking you are powerful enough to intimidate a demon (who is supposed to make you more powerfu.. huh?) sounds exactly like the kind of hubris that turns mages into abominations. I mean, the harrowing was all about how demons will do anything to trick you into getting out of the fade!

Red Frostraven wrote...

I'm anti spawning evil
godchildren, ever since Throne of Bhaal, thankyouverymuch.

lots of baahlspawn were pretty nice

Red Frostraven wrote...

The PLOT in the game is to
destroy the awakened (and darkspawn-corrupted) old god, who CREATED the
darkspawn in the first place before it was put to sleep/coma/whatever.

it's a TAINTED old god (well, it's also awakened, sure, but the point is it's tainted. It's something like god getting tainted and becoming the devil. And nowhere does it say that the old gods created darkspawn. the tainted old god, which is actually then an archdemon only leads the darkspawn.

Morrigan basically says:
"Let me give birth to a reborn being who in the distant past taught us all magic. And i will raise it VERY far from your despicable chantry, grey wardens who might misunderstand what it is and so on. and maybe one day we will learn more amazing things from it."

Theres even absolutely no reason why morrigan should be able to body hop. demons can. humans can't.

Red Frostraven wrote...
I don't trust she's up to the task, to
be honest, and I simply don't trust a woman who lies/decieves someone to
get that person to kill her very own mother, whom plans to have sex
with you from the second you meet no matter the circumstances.

she never lied to get her mother killed. And wanting her mother (SHES FLEMETH!) dead seems like a good thing for me

Red Frostraven wrote...

Someone
said she didn't like the idea of mating with chasind. But for power,
she's willing to screw -- excuse me -- absolutely any man or dwarf in
ferelden.

we still don't know if she really gains any power with this. we don't even know if the child will gain powers just because the soul is from an old god.
And she never seemed all that willing.

Modifié par Crrash, 21 mars 2010 - 05:02 .

[Addai]

Red Frostraven wrote...

You don't see Morrigan going around killing people wantonly to gain blood magic power, do you?

That depends upon the order you do the quests.
You could easily complete about 10 quests in a row where she approves of you putting a dagger up someones' belly for no other reason than because you can.

Hm.  We must be playing a different game, with a different NPC also named Morrigan.

Furthermore, she may not have problems with the ritual, but leaving the warden permanently after traveling with him or her for an effing year and growing more as a character faster in that year than she ever did with her mother in the wild.
She gained power at 10 times the rate she did with her mother, with the warden.
Ultimately, being sad for leaving someone MAY be a selfish act; self-pity, or having a part of her life she liked come to an end.
She might even be sad for FAILING.

Failing?
 
I don't know, OP.  I could understand hatred of Morrigan if it were actually based on something.  As it is, you don't even make sense, so it is hard to see your opinions as anything but mindless bias.  What is it, you don't like brunettes or something?

She approves of killing connor for god's sake, when you could be trading for power with the demon!!

She approves of you taking care of a bloodthirsty demon.  But I thought she was supposed to be evil??  Shouldn't she want the demon to ravage villages and cause misery and despair?

[Efesell]

Morrigan basicly sais: 
"Let me give birth to that old god who's minions killed and scared off all the gray wardens bar four -- after you defeat it and lose half of ferelden in the process -- and I promise I will try to raise him properly to be a good god (or snatch his body) before the evil old god reborn in the child can start another  blight or create another legion of mindless creatures like the darkspawn or screw up the world in some other way."

The taint, as outright stated during the ritual, is still destroyed in the process.

So it may be a godchild, but it's not a tainted one.

[Red Frostraven]

Crrash wrote...
lots of baahlspawn were pretty nice

Some of them were nice.
The rest of them ate babies, and many of them desired to become the god of murder and stir **** up.

Besides, the old god is an evil old god who's partly responsible for creating the darkspawn, and it is this god who will be reborn in stead of a child.

Addai67 wrote...
She approves of you taking care of a bloodthirsty demon.  But I thought she was supposed to be evil??  Shouldn't she want the demon to ravage villages and cause misery and despair?

Killing connor doesn't  kill the demon, and the demon is free to roam as it likes once it finds another suitable host.
Going to the fade allows you to kill it.
Thus, to kill the demon you must enter the fade.

Efesell wrote...

Morrigan basicly sais: 
"Let
me give birth to that old god who's minions killed and scared off all
the gray wardens bar four -- after you defeat it and lose half of
ferelden in the process -- and I promise I will try to raise him
properly to be a good god (or snatch his body) before the evil old god
reborn in the child can start another  blight or create another legion
of mindless creatures like the darkspawn or screw up the world in some
other way."

The taint, as outright stated during the ritual, is still destroyed in the process.

So it may be a godchild, but it's not a tainted one.

The old gods created the darkspawn. THEN when the darkspawn try to revive their masters, the old gods become corrupted.
A non-corrupted old god could be even worse than a corrupted one.

Modifié par Red Frostraven, 21 mars 2010 - 05:11 .

[Efesell]

You're using a whole lot of "maybes' for your facts.

[gotthammer]

*shrugs* Did the ritual. Seemed like the right thing to do at the time (plus Morrigan is my favorite character).

If the baby turns out bad, one can always endeavor to 'correct things'. Methinks my character will cross that bridge when he gets there.

There's also that bit about relationships being about 'trust'. Morrigan seemed to trust you enough to tell you about the details of the ritual...seems about right, if your PC chose to have her as a romance option, that you show trust as well.
If she betrays yer trust, well, as I said: cross that bridge when ya get there...until then, it's all speculation as to what will transpire.
Sure one can be all cold, calculating and strategic, doing cost/benefits and long range projection and whatnot, but, as I said...it, for me, seemed like the right thing to do at the time (that and I wouldn't want others to 'bite the bullet' for me. Doesn't seem right. )

Modifié par gotthammer, 21 mars 2010 - 05:25 .

[Efesell]

The ritual is really the far more practical thing to do, regardless of potential moral issues. Without we're talking about a giant city wide battle against the bulk of the Darkspawn, in which three people MUST survive or all is lost.

[Layn]

Red Frostraven wrote...

Besides, the old god is an evil old god who's partly responsible for creating the darkspawn, and it is this god who will be reborn in stead of a child.

really, where did you get that? Old gods just gave people magic. Yes, later on it was used to get into the fade and try to get into the golden/black city, but thats just something the chantry tells and isn't necessarily right. and anyway, it's like blaming prometheus for the atom bomb, wars and everything else bad because he gave humanity fire.
they didn't actually create the darkspawn. heck, how could they? they get tainted as soon as a darkspawn comes near.

Red Frostraven wrote...

Killing connor doesn't  kill the demon, and the demon is free to roam as it likes once it finds another suitable host.

it doesn't, but it gets sent back to the fade and it'll have to find some other fool to let it back to thedas. You know, like telling some proud mage that it can give him more power

Efesell wrote...

The ritual is really the far more
practical thing to do, regardless of potential moral issues. Without
we're talking about a giant city wide battle against the bulk of the
Darkspawn, in which three people MUST survive or all is lost.

actually only one of three people has to survive. Which are still pretty crappy odds. short time after the start of the battle it's even one of two who has to survive on the way to the archdemon. and when they get there one of the two has to survive the entire fight against the archdemon to give the finishing blow. REALLY bad odds

Modifié par Crrash, 21 mars 2010 - 05:42 .

[KendallX23]

actually no one said the Old Gods created the darkspawn...the only origins is from the CHantry who says the Maker made the darkspawn...when the Golden City was entered by the magisters

[Sarah1281]

The PLOT in the game is todestroy the awakened (and darkspawn-corrupted) old god, who CREATED thedarkspawn in the first place before it was put to sleep/coma/whatever.

We have no idea how the darkspawn were created. The Chantry claims it was all mankind's fault, but thn that really helps with their whole guilt-tripping aspect. That's just a theory, though admittedly it is one that a majority of the Chantry-following people in Ferelden ascribe to.

[Red Frostraven]

I could understand hatred of Morrigan if it were actually based on
something.  As it is, you don't even make sense, so it is hard to see
your opinions as anything but mindless bias.  What is it, you don't
like brunettes or something?

I have only played through the game as a good and a neutral character, and have experimented with some very few limited bad options.

Who loves the slavers who manage to take slaves only because they have strength in numbers?
Who wants you to kill elven slaves to get a pathetic boost to health?
Who wants you to bind souls of the innocent to create golems that are under your command, despite knowing how golems feel?
Who likes it if you kill connor and let the demon roam free?
Who plans for you to kill the archdemon so that she can get the soul of a god in a child? (Mother and daughter to be sure, but... still...)
Who knows how to take over the body of others, whom they may have to be related to? (Both mother and daughter)

I don't like her because she thinks circumstancial weakness makes people unworthy of life.
I don't like her because she makes Sten look like a very normal and/or cheerful talkative party lion.
I don't like her because she keeps a heapload of vital secrets from you:
-She knows about the ritual even as you meet, and have already planned to bed you
-She doesn't tell you about the ritual
-She knows about the bodyswapping, and have already planned to kill her mother
-She leads you to believe that Flemeth will take her body, knowing that Flemeth in fact will not
-She tricks you into finding the grimoire and killing her mother for no appearant reason other than keeping the godsoul to herself

Imagine if duncan hadn't shown up to save the weakling warden in any of the scenarios.
Had morrigan been there, she would have let you die easy as pie because you were too weak to defend yourself.