194 réponses à ce sujet

[ejoslin]

Red Frostraven, you do realize that many of your points are not supported in game at all, don't you? Roleplaying is GREAT! I love doing it. But your points are a mix of things that are in game and things that are not in game. I do that as well, btw. But I don't come on here making arguments that my unsupported roleplay options are actual reasons for liking/not liking a character.

[Sarah1281]

Who wants you to bind souls of the innocent to create golems that are under your command, despite knowing how golems feel?

We don't know she'll do that. In fact, recruiting volunteers would be easier and less likely to backfire than forcing people.

-She knows about the bodyswapping, and have already planned to kill her mother

-She leads you to believe that Flemeth will take her body, knowing that Flemeth in fact will not

-She tricks you into finding the grimoire and killing her mother for no appearant reason other than keeping the godsoul to herself

Those are valid theories but it is not fact that she knows any of this. Besides, it's not like she or the codex really believe she's dead, anyway. Fighting Flemeth was just to buy Morrigan time.

Imagine if duncan hadn't shown up to save the weakling warden in any of the scenarios.

Had morrigan been there, she would have let you die easy as pie because you were too weak to defend yourself.

And in all of those scenarios the Warden does die when Duncan isn't there and the world is just fine for it. Besides, we don't know whether or not the Warden will impress her as being powerful and brought down by circumstances (Sten and even freaking JOWAN make the cut) and she might step in to help. The Dalish probably won't as it was their own stupidity with the mirror that caused that mess but who knows with the others. The City Elf one would probably impress her and she'd help if she could because they rose up and managed to slaughter their way through an entire estate. Of course, as she wasn't a GW she wouldn't be in the position to help the DE, CE, DC, or Mage nor would she probably have been allowed in Highever or Orzammar to be in a position to help the HN or DN.

[Metalunatic]

This argument again...

[Layn]

Red Frostraven wrote...

I have only played through the game as a good and a neutral character, and have experimented with some very few limited bad options.

good and evil is relative. one side believes one thing to be good, the other side considers the same thing evil. I consider your lack of empathy for morrigan bad for example, while you consider it good to mistrust her completely.

Red Frostraven wrote...

Who loves the slavers who manage to take slaves only because they have strength in numbers?
Who wants you to kill elven slaves to get a pathetic boost to health?
Who wants you to bind souls of the innocent to create golems that are under your command, despite knowing how golems feel?
Who likes it if you kill connor and let the demon roam free?
Who plans for you to kill the archdemon so that she can get the soul of a god in a child? (Mother and daughter to be sure, but... still...)
Who knows how to take over the body of others, whom they may have to be related to? (Both mother and daughter)

~I don't like her because she thinks circumstancial weakness makes people
unworthy of life.
I don't like her because she makes Sten look like a
very normal and/or cheerful talkative party lion.
I don't like her
because she keeps a heapload of vital secrets from you:
-She knows
about the ritual even as you meet, and have already planned to bed you
-She
doesn't tell you about the ritual
-She knows about the bodyswapping,
and have already planned to kill her mother
-She leads you to
believe that Flemeth will take her body, knowing that Flemeth in fact
will not
-She tricks you into finding the grimoire and killing her
mother for no appearant reason other than keeping the godsoul to herself

we already adressed all of that, but i'd like to correct you on one thing either way. Morrigan does not know about taking over bodies. As soon as she finds out she tells you completely distressed about this and asks you to save her life by killing Flemeth.
How do you know that Flemeth won't take Morrigans body? was that stated anywhere?

Red Frostraven wrote...

Imagine if duncan hadn't shown up to save the weakling warden in any of the scenarios.
Had morrigan been there, she would have let you die easy as pie because you were too weak to defend yourself.

Duncan always had the ulterior motive of wanting the character as a warden exactly because he/she was very strong, not weak! and he hardly helped at all! the only time i remember him helping somehow was when he gave weapons to the elves in the alienage. all the other times he was just recruiting a very strong person, who had no where else to go due to the events he didn't let himself get involved in, into the wardens.

Modifié par Crrash, 21 mars 2010 - 06:00 .

[Raiil]

I think a lot of this is based on those who tend towards believing Chantry lore and those who don't. My PC dislikes the Chantry- she lies somewhere between Alistair's mehness towards it and Morrigan's outright disdain for their beliefs.





The only thing we know for 100% it seems is that archdemons are corrupted souls of the Old Gods. We don't know where the taint actually comes from, nor the darkspawn, we don't know if the gods of old were actually evil or if they were benevolent, malign, or something in between. Everything else is assumption.





Also:



Who wants you to bind souls of the innocent to create golems that are under your command, despite knowing how golems feel?



you're assuming Bhelen or Harrowmount would allow people to be pressed into service. Bhelen in particular strikes me as someone who would not. I think in some of these cases, you're making heavy assumptions based on someone you don't like. Morrigan needs you to survive to the end battle. Not just to make her god baby, but because you are Ferelden's best hope. The more you go out of your way to aid someone, the more you're putting yourself into danger. Which, guess what- is dangerous, foolish, and in some ways, selfish. And I say this with a PC who gives money to starving elves and helps out a Chantry she dislikes because that money can feed innocent people. You're distracting yourself from the matter at hand.

[Red Frostraven]

ejoslin wrote...

Red Frostraven, you do realize that many of your points are not supported in game at all, don't you? Roleplaying is GREAT! I love doing it. But your points are a mix of things that are in game and things that are not in game. I do that as well, btw. But I don't come on here making arguments that my unsupported roleplay options are actual reasons for liking/not liking a character.

Care to comment WHAT I was mistaken about in my assessments?

1: She tells you that the reason Flemeth saved you in the start was to complete the dark ritual in the end.
2: Which leads to the obvious conclusion that Flemeth won't take Morrigan's body anytime soon, when there's a godchild to be had.
3: Then we can conclude that the only reason she would want you to kill her mother is because she wants the godchild for herself; she does NOT do it to protect herself, she is a vessel for Flemeth's plans.
4: Through dialogue, she refuses to give any promise that she won't bodysnatch the godchild or somehow abuse the soul or body of the child.

[Deuterium_Dawn]

Valentia X wrote...
Who wants you to bind souls of the innocent to create golems that are under your command, despite knowing how golems feel?

you're assuming Bhelen or Harrowmount would allow people to be pressed into service. Bhelen in particular strikes me as someone who would not. I think in some of these cases, you're making heavy assumptions based on someone you don't like. Morrigan needs you to survive to the end battle. Not just to make her god baby, but because you are Ferelden's best hope. The more you go out of your way to aid someone, the more you're putting yourself into danger. Which, guess what- is dangerous, foolish, and in some ways, selfish. And I say this with a PC who gives money to starving elves and helps out a Chantry she dislikes because that money can feed innocent people. You're distracting yourself from the matter at hand.

Really? While he may not impress the casteless as Valtor did, I can certainly see him impressing his political enemies, he certainly proven himself ruthless in dealing with them. Harrowmont would probably  impress the casteless as well, seeing what he did with the golems when he got them.

[ejoslin]

Red Frostraven wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Red Frostraven, you do realize that many of your points are not supported in game at all, don't you? Roleplaying is GREAT! I love doing it. But your points are a mix of things that are in game and things that are not in game. I do that as well, btw. But I don't come on here making arguments that my unsupported roleplay options are actual reasons for liking/not liking a character.

Care to comment WHAT I was mistaken about in my assessments?

1: She tells you that the reason Flemeth saved you in the start was to complete the dark ritual in the end.
2: Which leads to the obvious conclusion that Flemeth won't take Morrigan's body anytime soon, when there's a godchild to be had.
3: Then we can conclude that the only reason she would want you to kill her mother is because she wants the godchild for herself; she does NOT do it to protect herself, she is a vessel for Flemeth's plans.
4: Through dialogue, she refuses to give any promise that she won't bodysnatch the godchild or somehow abuse the soul or body of the child.

Starting at point 2, actually.  Flemeth taking over Morrigan's body while Morrigan is pregnant is impossible?

Edit: You are just not given enough information in game to come to that conclusion at all.  Morrigan offers to teach Shale how to read the grimoire.  Shale turns it down so you don't know how serious the offer was, though.

"Body snatching" would do Morrigan no good.  Two souls cannot inhabit one body, at least according to Riorden.  Abuse the soul of an old god?  That old god would be far more powerful than Morrigan.  

Obviously there's something else going on, and something the warden is not privy to.  But if Morrigan were this horrible, manipulative person, she would have been trying to get on Alistair's good side, and going along with him.  Obviously, the way they fight she must know HURTS her chances of him going along with the ritual. 

Modifié par ejoslin, 21 mars 2010 - 06:16 .

[Efesell]

Red Frostraven wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Red Frostraven, you do realize that many of your points are not supported in game at all, don't you? Roleplaying is GREAT! I love doing it. But your points are a mix of things that are in game and things that are not in game. I do that as well, btw. But I don't come on here making arguments that my unsupported roleplay options are actual reasons for liking/not liking a character.

Care to comment WHAT I was mistaken about in my assessments?

1: She tells you that the reason Flemeth saved you in the start was to complete the dark ritual in the end.
2: Which leads to the obvious conclusion that Flemeth won't take Morrigan's body anytime soon, when there's a godchild to be had.
3: Then we can conclude that the only reason she would want you to kill her mother is because she wants the godchild for herself; she does NOT do it to protect herself, she is a vessel for Flemeth's plans.
4: Through dialogue, she refuses to give any promise that she won't bodysnatch the godchild or somehow abuse the soul or body of the child.

Lot of leaps being made there.

And ever present bias.

[KendallX23]

we need a continue with Morrigan story to stop all the asumptions and see what happens...hehe...

[Sarah1281]

Care to comment WHAT I was mistaken about in my assessments?



1: She tells you that the reason Flemeth saved you in the start was to complete the dark ritual in the end.

2: Which leads to the obvious conclusion that Flemeth won't take Morrigan's body anytime soon, when there's a godchild to be had.

3: Then we can conclude that the only reason she would want you to kill her mother is because she wants the godchild for herself; she does NOT do it to protect herself, she is a vessel for Flemeth's plans.

4: Through dialogue, she refuses to give any promise that she won't bodysnatch the godchild or somehow abuse the soul or body of the child.

She obviously isn't in the habit of taking the bodies of children. She could wait until Morrigan is pregant or the baby is born and then steal Morrigan's body and raise the child herself.



I don't think you can actually ask Morrigan at that point 'are you planning on stealing the kid's body' but she already tells you that she can't do that as she is not an abomination and only demons seem to have the power to possess people. As Flemeth herself is an abomination I don't see why she would record a way for a normal mage to duplicate her feat or even if she would know a way for her to.



The fact that they are for preserving the Old God leads you to believe the power is in the soul, not the body. If Flemeth pushed the soul out so she could possess it then that defeats the point of saving it in the first place. True that we don't know enough about how the body-stealing works and maybe Flemeth could merge with the child. Still, Old Gods are very powerful and would she be certain she'd win in a battle for control? Stealing Morrigan's body and raising the God-Child like she did Morrigan and having it ascribe to her philosophies on everything while she is its soul influence (which Morrigan appears to wan to do too) could make her very, very dangerous even without actually possessing the powers of the Old God herself.

[Layn]

Red Frostraven wrote...
Care to comment WHAT I was mistaken about in my assessments?

1: She tells you that the reason Flemeth saved you in the start was to complete the dark ritual in the end.
2: Which leads to the obvious conclusion that Flemeth won't take Morrigan's body anytime soon, when there's a godchild to be had.
3: Then we can conclude that the only reason she would want you to kill her mother is because she wants the godchild for herself; she does NOT do it to protect herself, she is a vessel for Flemeth's plans.
4: Through dialogue, she refuses to give any promise that she won't bodysnatch the godchild or somehow abuse the soul or body of the child.

i'll elaborate AGAIN:

1: yep true
2: there is nothing that says that flemeth can't take over a pregnant Morrigan.
3: then Morrigan would have probably wanted to kill flemeth from the start instead of letting grandmotehr Flemeth stick around and do whatever with the baby. however she only asks that when she figures out that her mother is a body-snatcher (come on, don't you value having your own body?).
4: she says the child won't be harmed. That to me is a promise that she will not take over the child (and theres nothing that point to humans being able to take over other bodies and nothing indicating that the child's body will be anything uberspecial)

Modifié par Crrash, 21 mars 2010 - 06:22 .

[Addai]

Red Frostraven wrote...
I have only played through the game as a good and a neutral character, and have experimented with some very few limited bad options.

I don't play "evil" characters.  I do play Wardens, who are generals, and thus understand that there are difficult decisions to be made in war; and who are people and thus understand that motives can be mixed.  Having seen a few posters like yourself, I find this simplistic characterization as imported from other games to be a real handicap in appreciating the rich characterizations of this game.  You're missing out on a lot by insisting that NPCs fit on some arbitrary paragon/villain scale.

Who wants you to kill elven slaves to get a pathetic boost to health?

I've already addressed this.  Because of the talk you have with Morrigan about the DR, you should know that she realizes even better than you do the importance of Grey Wardens in defeating the Blight.  That is the context in which she makes a mild suggestion for you to consider increasing your power.  You make it sound as if she had the dagger out at their throats.

Who wants you to bind souls of the innocent to create golems that are under your command, despite knowing how golems feel?

Are you even reading any of the feedback given by other posters here?  The dwarven race is at risk of dying out.  If they do not hold the Deep Roads, the darkspawn will thrive that much more, threatening the survival of humanity as well.  This is the context in which she and Zevran will suggest you consider not destroying the Anvil.

Who likes it if you kill connor and let the demon roam free?

LOL!  Killing Connor is thwarting the demon, keeping it from killing anyone else.  Did you hear Morrigan's disapproving comment, "And made a deal with a demon?  Foolish child."

Who plans for you to kill the archdemon so that she can get the soul of a god in a child? (Mother and daughter to be sure, but... still...)

Right, because letting the archdemon live would clearly be a better plan!

Who knows how to take over the body of others, whom they may have to be related to? (Both mother and daughter)

Morrigan does not even know that her mother does this unless you give her the grimoire.  The DR allows Morrigan to appropriate the taint in a conception.  That's all.  The taint is what draws the archdemon to the child, and in the process the old god loses the taint and can continue to live apart from it.

I don't like her because she thinks circumstancial weakness makes people unworthy of life.

She has a perspective based on her upbringing like anyone else- that survival and freedom are what matters.  My elves, for one, can understand very well what she is saying.

I don't like her because she makes Sten look like a very normal and/or cheerful talkative party lion.

Well since you hate her so much, it's obvious you've never gotten her approval up to where she is any different.  What a shock!

I don't like her because she keeps a heapload of vital secrets from you:

Sort of like Duncan, who is obviously as evil as they come.

-She knows about the bodyswapping, and have already planned to kill her mother
-She leads you to believe that Flemeth will take her body, knowing that Flemeth in fact will not
-She tricks you into finding the grimoire and killing her mother for no appearant reason other than keeping the godsoul to herself

And how pray tell do you determine all this?

Modifié par Addai67, 21 mars 2010 - 06:22 .

[gotthammer]

KendallX23 wrote...

we need a continue with Morrigan story to stop all the asumptions and see what happens...hehe...

This. And I hope it's in the form of a full sequel (i.e., DA2), and not some DLC or expansion.

[Red Frostraven]

Addai67 wrote...
1: Morrigan does not even know that her mother does this unless you give her the grimoire.  The DR allows Morrigan to appropriate the taint in a conception.  That's all.  The taint is what draws the archdemon to the child, and in the process the old god loses the taint and can continue to live apart from it.

I don't like her because she thinks circumstancial weakness makes people unworthy of life.

2: She has a perspective based on her upbringing like anyone else- that survival and freedom are what matters.  My elves, for one, can understand very well what she is saying.

I don't like her because she makes Sten look like a very normal and/or cheerful talkative party lion.

3: Well since you hate her so much, it's obvious you've never gotten her approval up to where she is any different.  What a shock!

 I don't like her because she keeps a heapload of vital secrets from you:

4: Sort of like Duncan, who is obviously as evil as they come.

1: She claims to not have known.
She claims that her mother wants her dead.
Why should we believe her claims?
The devs very handily PREVENTED you from interrogating flemeth about that -- I was VERY interested in hearing Flemeth's version, because I didn't trust Morrigan at all.
The soul loses the taint. That doesn't change the fact that the old gods created the darkspawn, nor that the untainted old gods call for the darkspawn to be awakened.

2: She does have a perspective based on her upbringing. But some people have reflection and self-inisight, and realize that when applying a simple set of tests to their lifestyle, they can figure out if they are right or wrong:
a) If someone else treats Me like I treat others, how would I feel?
This mechanism is sort of built into most people -- it's why children of drunks most often are more sober than anyone else, and why children of cruel parents very often have a set of very high moral standards: They realize their parents are wrong and become the very opposite.

3: I've given her the chance, and have gifted her up to 100 because I found it impossible to raise her approval naturally without murdering, enslaving or otherwise being cruel -- or incredibly stupid -- or setting free murderous criminals.
She obviously has qualms about her nature, but why the heck doesn't she apply some sort of basic reflection and sit down and ponder what the heck she's doing with her life?
She could apply the rituals of her mother and NOT be a complete arse.

4: I didn't like Duncan either. Had the king and subsequently, Loghain, known why the grey wardens were necessary, the blight would have been over before it started -- and perhaps the game would've been all about bashing Chevaliers back over to Orlais.
One point in persuasion my first time through the game, talking to Loghain once in camp -- and I knew Loghain wouldn't help because he didn't think the wardens were necessary and because he didn't believe in the blight.
Duncan was clumsy and unwise; Not letting the king know why the wardens are necessary LED to the betrayal BECAUSE Loghain didn't know why the king trusted the wardens so, while the belief that it wasn't a true blight led to him being more afraid of Orlais than the blight.
Duncan knew it was a true blight, he had seen the archdemon. TELL THE EFFING KING DAMNIT!

Modifié par Red Frostraven, 22 mars 2010 - 08:06 .

[Efesell]

Red Frostraven wrote...

The devs very handily PREVENTED you from interrogating flemeth about
that -- I was VERY interested in hearing Flemeth's version, because I
didn't trust Morrigan at all.

Wait wait wait..
So you would trust Flemeth, the clear Abomination, instead?

Flemeths whole attitude is that of "So you know the truth? Well Whaddaya gonna do about it?"

Modifié par Efesell, 22 mars 2010 - 08:00 .

[casedawgz]

Efesell wrote...

Red Frostraven wrote...

The devs very handily PREVENTED you from interrogating flemeth about
that -- I was VERY interested in hearing Flemeth's version, because I
didn't trust Morrigan at all.

Wait wait wait..
So you would trust Flemeth, the clear Abomination, instead?

Flemeths whole attitude is that of "So you know the truth? Well Whaddaya gonna do about it?"

Not Flemeth the abomination. Captain Janeway.

[Efesell]

Gonna be honest.

I might trust the Abomination over Janeway.

[Vicious]

We let her walk because there is no lore that says Old Gods were evil maneating corrupt monsters. Hell people worshipped them and held festivals in their honor. What Morrigan is creating is a human with the soul of an ancient dragon. Nothing more, nothing less. What powers that grants, what that entails, will be unknown since there is nothing else like it in the Dragon Age universe.





Morrigan is a witch with a B, sure, but it is relatively easy for a paladin-ish character to romance her regardless. She is not intrinsically evil, just self-serving and socially inept.



And there is no evidence that a person with the soul of an ancient dragon would be automatically evil, More like it would make it's own decisions... but such a being would surely be the center around which the rest of the world revolves.

[casedawgz]

Efesell wrote...

Gonna be honest.
I might trust the Abomination over Janeway.

Yeah, I guess in retrospect she was kind of a terrible captain. The whole "lost in space" premise of the series was completely her fault.

[Red Frostraven]

Crrash wrote...

1: She tells you that the reason Flemeth saved you in the start was to complete the dark ritual in the end.
2: Which leads to the obvious conclusion that Flemeth won't take Morrigan's body anytime soon, when there's a godchild to be had.
3: Then we can conclude that the only reason she would want you to kill her mother is because she wants the godchild for herself; she does NOT do it to protect herself, she is a vessel for Flemeth's plans.
4: Through dialogue, she refuses to give any promise that she won't bodysnatch the godchild or somehow abuse the soul or body of the child.

i'll elaborate AGAIN:

1: yep true
2: there is nothing that says that flemeth can't take over a pregnant Morrigan.
3: then Morrigan would have probably wanted to kill flemeth from the start instead of letting grandmotehr Flemeth stick around and do whatever with the baby. however she only asks that when she figures out that her mother is a body-snatcher (come on, don't you value having your own body?).
4: she says the child won't be harmed. That to me is a promise that she will not take over the child

(5: and theres nothing that point to humans being able to take over other bodies and nothing indicating that the child's body will be anything uberspecial)

2: Except her being temporarily dead, that is.

3: Why didn't she react when her mother told her she was going to have sex with one of the two wardens in the tent after flemeth saved them, and give birth to a godchild?
She must have seen flemeth age, and she must have known Flemeth simply won't die.
She must have suspected something was amiss.

4: She sais the ritual won't harm the fetus. Nothing more, while the question more or less refers to the future of the child -- she replies as if the question was regarding the moment the old god possesses the child.

5: Why are we so afraid of the old god bodyswapping into a grenlock grunt in that case, as it will still be a grenlock grunt like everyone else?

Modifié par Red Frostraven, 22 mars 2010 - 03:57 .

[Efesell]

Red Frostraven wrote...

5: Why are we so afraid of the old god bodyswapping into a grenlock
grunt in that case, as it will still be a grenlock grunt like everyone
else?

You are failing to recognize the difference between the Archdemon and the Old God here.

[Red Frostraven]

Efesell wrote...

Red Frostraven wrote...
The devs very handily PREVENTED you from interrogating flemeth about
that -- I was VERY interested in hearing Flemeth's version, because I
didn't trust Morrigan at all.

Wait wait wait..
So you would trust Flemeth, the clear Abomination, instead?
Flemeths whole attitude is that of "So you know the truth? Well Whaddaya gonna do about it?"

Why wouldn't you trust Flemeth just as much as her daughter?
If we could get her side of the story, any of them, it'd be very nice -- we could draw a conclusion somewhere in the middle of the two insinuations (they don't tell you ****, only insinuate stuff).

And that is also disturbing: You can't tell her WHAT Morrigan told you, you can only tell her that you believe that you know what Flemeth does to stay alive for so long based on what her daughter told you based on what Morrigan may or may not have read in the grimoires, grimoires which may or may not belong to Flemeth.
(They could belong to morrigan, for all we know).

Efesell wrote...

Red Frostraven wrote...

5: Why are we so afraid of the old god bodyswapping into a grenlock
grunt in that case, as it will still be a grenlock grunt like everyone
else?

You are failing to recognize the difference between the Archdemon and the Old God here.

What is the difference?
Old
gods are archdemons without the taint; they're the sentient
dragon-things who hates the living daylight out of the followers of the
Maker.
I don't trust that the old gods are any better than the tainted old gods.
(Not that I side with the chantry, mind you...)

Modifié par Red Frostraven, 22 mars 2010 - 08:53 .

[Red Frostraven]

Modifié par Red Frostraven, 22 mars 2010 - 08:51 .

[Efesell]

Red Frostraven wrote...

And that is also disturbing: You can't tell her WHAT Morrigan told you, you can only tell her that you believe that you know what Flemeth does to stay alive for so long based on what her daughter told you based on what Morrigan may or may not have read in the grimoires, grimoires which may or may not belong to Flemeth.
(They could belong to morrigan, for all we know).

Flemeth isn't stupid. She knows what Morrigan must have found out if she's sent you there, without her, to kill her.
And the grimoires being Morrigan's is a stupid idea even from you.