194 réponses à ce sujet

[dhurstell]

annnnd if its Alistair's child, it also has a claim to the throne when he dies.

[Efesell]

Ha, so it does.

That is a fun thought.

[Red Frostraven]

Efesell wrote...
Flemeth isn't stupid. She knows what Morrigan must have found out if she's sent you there, without her, to kill her.
And the grimoires being Morrigan's is a stupid idea even from you.

Why? Can you read them and know that they're anything else than a child's diaries?
No. It's not a stupid idea that they belong to Morrigan.

I tried to visit Flemeth countless times before Morrigan sent me there to kill her -- and I didn't intend to kill her, but hear out her side of the story.
Had morrigan told me the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, I would have trusted her.
But she doesn't, so I can't trust her more than her mother -- who at the least saved my character's life, if only to set up her and Morrigan's scheme.
Morrigan was a part of the godchild scheme from from Flemeth saved you till the ritual.

I don't get why people like Morrigan.
Is it her dress?
Is it her ****-like disdain for the weak and the outnumbered?
Is it her constant bashing of everyone else in your party without exceptions?
Is it her refusal to tell you anything worthwile without you paying her off?
Is it her tendency to not tell you the whole truth?
Is it the fact that the only reason she comes with you is because she and her mother plans for her to have sex with you, Alistair or any other gray warden, get a godchild and leave you permanently, a plot which she finishes off no matter what you say or do?

In my book, that makes her a sociopath at best, bordering to megalomania.

Modifié par Red Frostraven, 22 mars 2010 - 09:10 .

[Efesell]

You really don't need to explain that you dislike Morrigan. I think we get that.
But pretty much all you have for your case is bias and supposition.

Anyway, that's all for now. I'm sure you'll still be hating on Morrigan some more tomorrow anyway.

Modifié par Efesell, 22 mars 2010 - 09:12 .

[Red Frostraven]

Efesell wrote...

You really don't need to explain that you dislike Morrigan. I think we get that.
But pretty much all you have for your case is bias and supposition.

Anyway, that's all for now. I'm sure you'll still be hating on Morrigan some more tomorrow anyway.

Nah. Tomorrow, I'll start my powergaming character. But even he will have qualms about letting the child of Flemeth escape with a godchild. Nothing will stop that godchild from repeating the history that led to the first blight.

[Gill Kaiser]

Stop saying the Old Gods created the darkspawn. Not even the Chantry teaches that they directly created the species. At most they urged the Tevinter magisters to attempt to enter the Golden City, and that's if you believe an extremely biased and allogorical account of the incident. What proof does the Chantry have that the magisters did it because of the "whispering of the Old Gods"? None, that's what.

[Ponce de Leon]

bobobo878 wrote...

No, no, no. Flemeth is going to decide to skip a generation and possess the baby. She will than proceed to murder Morrigan.

I like this one mostly. I hope Flemeth invites me to check the showdown.

[Ponce de Leon]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Stop saying the Old Gods created the darkspawn. Not even the Chantry teaches that they directly created the species. At most they urged the Tevinter magisters to attempt to enter the Golden City, and that's if you believe an extremely biased and allogorical account of the incident. What proof does the Chantry have that the magisters did it because of the "whispering of the Old Gods"? None, that's what.

Flemeth herself said "Men's hearts hold shadows greater than any tainted creature". My guess is power, that's why they usurped the Golden City. As for the taint and the Maker, I don't believe that part. The golden city, more so, since it's possibly visible from the fade (the one that has an A-like form, or the Sierra game producer or whatever symbol they had once in the past). Justice confirms that probably there is no such thing as the Maker. So I guess there are only bad spirits and good ones (or rather neutral). The old gods, well, the Archdemons ARE the old gods, or rather, are believed to be gods, or were. The Architect confirms this if you side with him in the final battle. He intentionally found the God for his plans, which are generally speaking quite OK from a roleplaying view... oh uh... gotta go, low battery.

[Count Viceroy]

I agree wholeheartedly with the OP. Morrigan is a lying manipulating scheming witch first, and friend/lover second. The possibilities for miss use are huge and there's no way in hell I'd trust morrigan to do the right thing. I think what she mentions to shale has substance, that she must study the soul of a creature in order to mimic it and shapeshift into it. Flemeth has to have learned the high dragon form from somewhere...



Also, I laughed at all the posters comming in here defending Morrigan, playing the bias card, when you're just as bad. hypocrites the lot of you.

[Proposition_Joe]

i try to RP when im playing (as it is a RPG...) so for some of my characters it is naturall to trust her because they love her, as easy as that, even if they know she cant be trusted, they still want to.

Personally i like Morrigan, she is a colourful person, but wouldent trust her one bit.

[Layn]

Red Frostraven wrote...

The soul loses the taint. That doesn't change the fact that the old gods created the darkspawn, nor that the untainted old gods call for the darkspawn to be awakened.

even the chantry which hates the old gods and everything related says that all they did was give us magic. And that they only go on a world destroying rampage when they are tainted. We don't know why the old gods call the darkspawn. considering the immediate taint, i'd guess they don't do it on purpose.they might just as well be snoring and the darkspawn find it appealing. It's clearly stated somewhere that darkspawn are attracted to the old gods for being pure beings (or was it perfect? nah im sure it was pure). and the problem was that as soon as they get near that purity gets immediately tainted.

Red Frostraven wrote...

2: She does have a perspective based on her upbringing. But some people have reflection and self-inisight, and realize that when applying a simple set of tests to their lifestyle, they can figure out if they are right or wrong:
a) If someone else treats Me like I treat others, how would I feel?
This mechanism is sort of built into most people -- it's why children of drunks most often are more sober than anyone else, and why children of cruel parents very often have a set of very high moral standards: They realize their parents are wrong and become the very opposite.

drunk peopele and children have morals? they don't even know what they are doing! come on, you can't believe that yourself? Morality is learned. And thats what she does in her travels with the warden.

Red Frostraven wrote...

2: Except her being temporarily dead,
that is.

so you are agreeing with me? you said there was no danger of morrigan getting posessed, because morrigan would be bearing a godchild. of course. if you kill flemeth, she wont be able to posess morrigan. that was the whole point of killing flemeth in the first place.

Red Frostraven wrote...


3: Why didn't she react when her mother told her she was
going to have sex with one of the two wardens in the tent after flemeth
saved them, and give birth to a godchild?
She must have seen flemeth
age, and she must have known Flemeth simply won't die.
She must have
suspected something was amiss.

her uberpowerful mother told her that by having sex with a grey warden you can prevent the soul from an old being, who obviously has a lot of knowledge of how the world works, from dying. What was she to do when Flemeth actually told her to go along with the wardens? heck, why shouldn't she want to preserve an old god? nothing weird about Flemeth wanting it either.

Red Frostraven wrote...

4: She sais the ritual won't harm the fetus. Nothing more, while the question more or less refers to the future of the child -- she replies as if the question was regarding the moment the old god possesses the child.

i think you are right. i think i was confusing it with the question if Ferelden would be harmed.

Red Frostraven wrote...

5: Why are we so afraid of the old god bodyswapping into a grenlock grunt in that case, as it will still be a grenlock grunt like everyone else?

because it's still an archdemon wanting to kill everyone, with the power to lead the entire darkspawn army. And if a normal person kills that genlock, the soul would just jump to the next darkspawn and continue leading, and you will have to kill every single darkspawn in the entirety of thedas, to make sure the army stops attacking the surface. And worst of all, it would be a lot harder to figure out which one is the leader.if a grey warden should come along eventually.

Red Frostraven wrote...

I don't get why people like Morrigan.

It's not that i absolutely like Morrigan, but she WAS a companion, and i took my time to get to know her, and feel she is really misunderstood.
i do value her love for freedom highly, and listen to her opinion as the approach to the situation that will help our path to our goal the most, even if i rarely end up doing what she says (or even never. i think the only time i did something she suggested was
when i fought her mother) .

Modifié par Crrash, 22 mars 2010 - 12:23 .

[Gill Kaiser]

Red Frostraven wrote...

2: She does have a perspective based on her upbringing. But some people have reflection and self-inisight, and realize that when applying a simple set of tests to their lifestyle, they can figure out if they are right or wrong:
a) If someone else treats Me like I treat others, how would I feel?
This mechanism is sort of built into most people -- it's why children of drunks most often are more sober than anyone else, and why children of cruel parents very often have a set of very high moral standards: They realize their parents are wrong and become the very opposite.

Morality is a social construct that has arisen through years of social evolution. It is neither intrinsic, nor objectively correct.

[Red Frostraven]

Count Viceroy wrote...

I agree wholeheartedly with the OP. Morrigan is a lying manipulating scheming witch first, and friend/lover second. The possibilities for miss use are huge and there's no way in hell I'd trust morrigan to do the right thing. I think what she mentions to shale has substance, that she must study the soul of a creature in order to mimic it and shapeshift into it. Flemeth has to have learned the high dragon form from somewhere...

Also, I laughed at all the posters comming in here defending Morrigan, playing the bias card, when you're just as bad. hypocrites the lot of you.

...
...

That is true.

Morrigan and Flemeth may get the shapeshifting abilities of an old god if they manage to get the soul of an old god.
That means that Morrigan doesn't need to bodysnatch the baby to become an old god, she may become able to shapeshift into one.

This is obviously pure speculation, but... she did say that.

[Bigdoser]

When you kill morrigan's mother read the description of the armor in the chest. The robe that she was planning to give to morrigan after you defeated the blight.

[ejoslin]

This thread goes to show what a wonderfully written character Morrigan really is. Wow, such anger and dislike! It's great!

[Count Viceroy]

Actually most if not all characters have threads and discussions like these, it's high praise for the writing team indeed. Even Ogrhen in awakening has a love/hate thread!

Come to think of it, the only character I haven't seen any substantial negativity about is Leliana...

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 22 mars 2010 - 03:20 .

[Red Frostraven]

Bigdoser wrote...

When you kill morrigan's mother read the description of the armor in the chest. The robe that she was planning to give to morrigan after you defeated the blight.

Is that written on the robes?

"Morrigan, don't read this. Not to self: These robes are made by me, Flemeth, to ease my later possession of my daughter."

No. You never get a testimony from Flemeth, she doesn't even ever confirm nor deny what Morrigan has told you.
What is written on the robes is an assumption your character makes, or something Morrigan tells you.
You can't find out the TRUTH.

(Except if a developer sheds light on what the heck is going on in that plotline, between those two scheming hags.)

Flemeth may have decided to skip a generation, and possess the godchild.
Something we won't know, because we weren't allowed to interrogate Flemeth.
AND guess what? The grimoire has been locked away in the mage tower from before Morrigan was born, and thus CANNOT say what Flemeth intend to do with morrigan.

...
Both witches seem to be of the "knowledge is power" type, which I find to be an incredibly frustrating type of character, as they won't tell you anything worthwile unless it benefits them in return telling you that, and they often tell things too late.

Had she told my character about the ritual after she got to +100, months before killing the last boss, fine. I might have considered going through the ritual, because she'd be an honest person, informing me about her intentions for following me.

But at the eve of battle, she sneaks into my room and goes "let's ****, and by the way -- I will leave you after this with a godchild and never return, and this has been my and my mother's plan from the moment we met. Sorry."

Modifié par Red Frostraven, 22 mars 2010 - 03:24 .

[Addai]

Red Frostraven wrote...
1: She claims to not have known.
She claims that her mother wants her dead.
Why should we believe her claims?

Ok, so you don't actually know that she lies to you about not knowing about Flemeth's plan.  Because of course we can't know that.

The devs very handily PREVENTED you from interrogating flemeth about that -- I was VERY interested in hearing Flemeth's version, because I didn't trust Morrigan at all.

And you would trust Flemeth?  Interesting.  But do you really think that even if you could have asked Flemeth, she would have given you a straight answer?  She basically tells you the truth when she says "better the illusion, better the warm blanket of a mother's love" (paraphrasing here), meaning that both your PC and Morrigan want to think of her as a loving mother rather than an abomination seeking a vessel to extend her life, and she is not going to bother to deny what you already know.

So I'm still interested to hear how you determine that Morrigan is lying to you about why she wants you to kill Flemeth?

The soul loses the taint. That doesn't change the fact that the old gods created the darkspawn, nor that the untainted old gods call for the darkspawn to be awakened.

The old gods call for freedom, and are then tainted by the darkspawn.  An old god who is already free would have no reason to treat with the darkspawn at all.

2: She does have a perspective based on her upbringing. But some people have reflection and self-inisight, and realize that when applying a simple set of tests to their lifestyle, they can figure out if they are right or wrong:

As does Morrigan.  If you want to point to a character in the game who is stuck in herself and never changes, look at Wynne, not Morrigan.  Morrigan clearly is distinguishing herself from her mother and trying to live in a different way.

3: I've given her the chance, and have gifted her up to 100 because I found it impossible to raise her approval naturally without murdering, enslaving or otherwise being cruel -- or incredibly stupid -- or setting free murderous criminals.

I rarely follow Morrigan's quest advice and have no trouble raising her approval.  As I said, I don't play "evil" characters, and all of my characters have befriended and trusted Morrigan by the end.  Perhaps not completely trusted her as they would their LI, but enough to say that she is not "evil."

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Morrigan has a character arc in the story and does come to appreciate softer things in life, even if through a veneer of sneering. In the end, she treasured the love of her Grey Warden and was sad to leave him, per her own words.



Cue personal speculation, Flemeth purposely taught Morrigan to be a selfish brat because it would give her cause to seek what Flemeth wanted, a more powerful body while denying Morrigan the one resource she would need to stop Flemeth, IE powerful allies.



Towards the end, I saw what seemed to be hints that Morrigan caught onto this. It is why she opened up like she did because she realized that some power comes from those you know. If she treasures the old god like she claims and does what she says in that she would raise it to appreciate its roots, then I doubt she will be raising a sociopath.



That said, I am aware of the speculative nature of it but it did make me appreciate Morrigan more. She was purposely stunted socially by Flemeth so her attitude was technically a victimization. Either way, that is what I was able to come up with.

[Sarah1281]

And that is also disturbing: You can't tell her WHAT Morrigan told you, you can only tell her that you believe that you know what Flemeth does to stay alive for so long based on what her daughter told you based on what Morrigan may or may not have read in the grimoires, grimoires which may or may not belong to Flemeth

Actually you can if you say you came there to talk. You can outright ask her if she's really planning on stealing Morrigan's body but she won't give a straight answer, just something along the lines of 'is that what she told you?' That sounds like it leans more towards 'no' but if you tell her that it doesn't matter why you're here to kill her she says that Morrigan must have found out something she didn't like so if nothing else I believe Flemeth was plotting against Morrigan.

She sais the ritual won't harm the fetus. Nothing more, while the question more or less refers to the future of the child -- she replies as if the question was regarding the moment the old god possesses the child.

That may not have been what you wanted to know, but that was what the question was asking. Will the ritual hurt the child? It will hardly be a child a day after conception, but no. Is 'are you going to be an abusive mother' really a relevant question when dealing with the ritual? She won't say yes and unless you made her leave early on you should know enough about her to decide whether you think she would make an acceptable parent.

AND guess what? The grimoire has been locked away in the mage tower from before Morrigan was born, and thus CANNOT say what Flemeth intend to do with morrigan

Which would also mean it's not Morrigan's grimoire. But it doesn't have to say what she plans to do with Morrigan nor does Morrigan claim that it does. She says that it explains what happens to every other child Flemeth has ever had and she recognizes a lot of what's in the chronicles as being part of her own upbringing. When Flemeth realized there was an Old God to be had, she may have changed her plans but if that's what's really in the grimoire than Morrigan does have good reason to fear she may be next.

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Have to agree with Sarah... If it documents what Flemeth does with All of her daughters and Morrigan is Flemeth's daughter...........



I don't think it needs to name names for Morrigan to worry.

[Red Frostraven]

So I'm still interested to hear how you determine that Morrigan is lying to you about why she wants you to kill Flemeth?

1: She is using the character to her own ends from day 1, quite literally.
2: She supports murder for a insignificant boost to health, she supports slavery.
3: She never tells the whole truth even when asked for it.
4: The tome in the mage tower have most likely been there for longer than Morrigan's lifespan, and could thus would not contain Flemeth's plans for Morrigan.
5: She can have the soul of an old god to herself, from which she can learn to shapeshift into that creature; Reference: Shale and Morrigan talks about shapeshifting, upon which Morrigan explains they copy the soul of the creature.
6: She tells Zevran that if she was Zevran, she would kill the warden for showing Morrigan mercy in his place.
7: She's a power-hungry wench who's delusional in her belief that she's more powerful or wiser than most else of importance in the party, when she in fact could be captured easy as pie by enemies. (She constantly falls in my party, while my mage doesn't. and Shapechanger? Sheesh. That's worse than Wynne!)

Modifié par Red Frostraven, 22 mars 2010 - 04:34 .

[Addai]

All of which is either irrelevant or something that you're picking out of the air rather than anything in-game. In other words, you got nothin.

[ejoslin]

Red Frostraven wrote...

1: She is using the character to her own ends from day 1, quite literally.
2: She supports murder for a insignificant boost to health, she supports slavery.
3: She never tells the whole truth even when asked for it.
4: The tome in the mage tower have most likely been there for longer than Morrigan's lifespan, and could thus would not contain Flemeth's plans for Morrigan.
5: She can have the soul of an old god to herself, from which she can learn to shapeshift into that creature; Reference: Shale and Morrigan talks about shapeshifting, upon which Morrigan explains they copy the soul of the creature.
6: She tells Zevran that if she was Zevran, she would kill the warden for showing her mercy
7: She's a power-hungry wench who's delusional in her belief that she's more powerful or wiser than most else of importance, when she in fact could be captured easy as pie. (She constantly falls in my party, while my mage doesn't. Shapechanger? Sheesh.)

1. To be fair, your character is using Morrigan as well.  For her power as a mage.
2. She wants you to be as powerful as possible to beat the arch demon.  Ending the blight for whatever motivations should be priority 1.  Talk to Ser Gilmore in the HN origin about what lengths Grey Wardens go to.
3. True enough.
4. It describes how Flemeth extends her life, and she recognizes much of it.
5. I don't know. That sounds like a reach.  But it's possible.
6. Again, goes to her belief in survival.  The motivation isn't for showing mercy, it's because the Crows, if they capture Zevran, will give him a fate worse than death.
7. If she's dying a lot, that's your fault, not the character's.  This is not an MMO -- you have complete control over how she's built since you get her early, and what happens in battle.

[Whitering]

My most recent character is an elven mage. As an elf seized by the circle when I was a youngster, who reunited with the Daelish at the first opportunity; I shared more in common with Morrigan than any other human. I too had great disdain for humanity in general.



I was rude to Cailan, Duncan, Irving and every other human who sought dominion over me. I hacked off Logain's head without a second thought, not because he betrayed the Wardens but because I hate humans. I even killed Wynne before she joined my group because she was so "yay, the circle" that the conversation turned to battle. So, that's why I support Morrigan because she was a kindred soul.



Most of my characters don't trust her though. There's a lot of reasons to dislike her, and some to like her, but it depends where you are coming from with your character that makes the most difference.