243 réponses à ce sujet

[Computron2000]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

Been putting this off. For a second I considered posting in the "Plot wise did ME2 accomplish anything?" but felt this deserved its own thread. In a way, I thought the jab at us RPG fans on the Citadel was mildly amusing, minus them being way off. I don't know of ANY RPG fan that doesn't like choices. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I've never encountered them, and I've encountered a lot of RPG fans both online and off.

Eh, you do know the difference between a tabletop RPG and a CRPG right? If you want total freedom of choice, go play a tabletop RPG without a railroading DM/Gamemaster/Storyteller/Judge/etc. Until you invent a real life Geth level AI, that is your only solution

[SkullandBonesmember]

Tabletops are boring.



Found this. Won't go into details but thought it was kind of interesting.

[marshalleck]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

Tabletops are boring.

Tabletops are only as boring as you make them.

Choices, consequences, freedom to roleplay the exact character you conceptualize...video games have never been able to compete with pencils, paper, dice and a group of friends in that regard.

Modifié par marshalleck, 21 mars 2010 - 09:47 .

[SkullandBonesmember]

marshalleck wrote...

Tabletops are only as boring as you make them.

Choices, consequences, freedom to roleplay the exact character you conceptualize...video games have never been able to compete with pencils, paper, dice and a group of friends in that regard

I prefer a visual interface. As sad as it may be, the 80s and 90s are over.

[Karstedt]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Tabletops are only as boring as you make them.

Choices, consequences, freedom to roleplay the exact character you conceptualize...video games have never been able to compete with pencils, paper, dice and a group of friends in that regard

I prefer a visual interface. As sad as it may be, the 80s and 90s are over.

Yeah, in person socialization is dead...

I tabletop with a very fun group. It's not all about the game either, you get to hang out and make fun of each other for doing really stupid sh** in the game. And then order pizza, drink beer, and watch a movie. I've yet to find a game that can replace my game group. That said, some groups are pretty crappy, and I would only stay through the first game out of politeness.

[Computron2000]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Tabletops are only as boring as you make them.

Choices, consequences, freedom to roleplay the exact character you conceptualize...video games have never been able to compete with pencils, paper, dice and a group of friends in that regard

I prefer a visual interface. As sad as it may be, the 80s and 90s are over.

Well then, if you want choices + visual, go ahead and invent a geth level AI. I'm sure you'll make a lot of money as well as fufil your own idea of the "perfect" game.

If you can't do it, too bad. Live with it

[Heart Collector]

Hi OP, too bad you haven't enjoyed the game. I am personally having a blast, even though I do find the RPG portion a little too toned down myself. Can't wait for the third installment anyway!

[Multifarious Algorithm]

Computron2000 wrote...

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Tabletops are only as boring as you make them.

Choices, consequences, freedom to roleplay the exact character you conceptualize...video games have never been able to compete with pencils, paper, dice and a group of friends in that regard

I prefer a visual interface. As sad as it may be, the 80s and 90s are over.

Well then, if you want choices + visual, go ahead and invent a geth level AI. I'm sure you'll make a lot of money as well as fufil your own idea of the "perfect" game.

If you can't do it, too bad. Live with it

The next big thing will be when we can synthesize voices accurately. It wouldn't need to in real-time, but if there was a way to run a couple days of rendering on a server-farm and generate thousands of lines of dialog, then it would mean that "writing" in games would cost less since dialog and dialog changes would cost practically nothing.

[Halmiriliath]

Kalfear wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Calling them fanboys hurts their feelings OP.

LOL I think it did!

You know, people might take the "Game is perfek" crowd more serious if they stoped trolling every negative comment at game and started to say something to back up their opinion.

But as usual, someone makes a solid post of known issues in game and he/she gets trolled by 13 years olds that cant form intellegent sentances and rebutals!

Typical for Bioware forums as of late Im sad to say.

PS: Skull I made a thread that doesnt have the trolls regarding game missing the mark on conversations and RPG elements (beyond inventory and game mechanic stuff), link in my signature

I'm curious as to how you've made the jump in logic in equating any forumite who loves Mass Effect 2 with a homogeneous group of teenagers that will defend it to the death, as it were. In my time on these forums, I don't think I've seen any post that says that the game is perfect - there is always room for improvement. What I have seen is people, including me, stating that while there may indeed be faults or flaws in the game, the positives far outweigh them. While some people may lack the courtesy of being polite about said view, an offensive response like this - or an offensive thread title - only vindicates their belief that their peremptory dismissal of you was justified. 

Back to the topic in hand, I personally feel that Mass Effect 2 lived up to the demands normally expected of an RPG better than its predecessor did. If you equate more relevant dialogue opportunities and a sense of immersion as being the cornerstone of a role-playing game, then it is an improvement for me. Each recruitable character had an interesting background that fleshed them out, and each had their own reasons to join you on the Normandy. This is important for me, as when I was replaying the first Mass Effect recently, I was struck by the lack of a sufficient explanation as to how Garrus and Wrex in particular hopped on board when you left the Citadel. Sure, Garrus felt that he hadn't had his opportunity to take Saren down, but why should Shepard allow what is at this point a random, unremarkable Turian - who becomes completely awesome in Mass Effect 2 - join him? And yes, Wrex wanted to take down Fist, but why would a Krogan bounty hunter join you in a galaxy-wide hunt for a fugitive he has interest in only by proxy? This - among other things - is why I believe the second Mass Effect is a more compelling RPG than the first, and it's also why I'm more than willing to forgive the inevitable flaws in the game.   

Modifié par Halmiriliath, 21 mars 2010 - 03:29 .

[Xangcris]

I'm sure its been said already...



Mass Effect 1 = RPG with real time combat



Mass Effect 2 = 3rd Person shooter with RPG elements



Don't care really as I enjoyed both games. Not perfect as they both had quirks that annoyed me but still awesome games.

[Haseeo]

Xangcris wrote...

I'm sure its been said already...

Mass Effect 1 = RPG with real time combat

Mass Effect 2 = 3rd Person shooter with RPG elements

Don't care really as I enjoyed both games. Not perfect as they both had quirks that annoyed me but still awesome games.

Couldn't of put it better myself

[Computron2000]

Multifarious Algorithm wrote...

Computron2000 wrote...

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Tabletops are only as boring as you make them.

Choices, consequences, freedom to roleplay the exact character you conceptualize...video games have never been able to compete with pencils, paper, dice and a group of friends in that regard

I prefer a visual interface. As sad as it may be, the 80s and 90s are over.

Well then, if you want choices + visual, go ahead and invent a geth level AI. I'm sure you'll make a lot of money as well as fufil your own idea of the "perfect" game.

If you can't do it, too bad. Live with it

The next big thing will be when we can synthesize voices accurately. It wouldn't need to in real-time, but if there was a way to run a couple days of rendering on a server-farm and generate thousands of lines of dialog, then it would mean that "writing" in games would cost less since dialog and dialog changes would cost practically nothing.

Yes then we would see an expansion of the choices. Maybe from the current 3 or 4 to 30 or 40. Still thats a decade at least away, more like 2 or 3 decades. Still we would need an good enough AI to run the logical pathing for an adventure (currently done by humans on tabletop). This is assuming a non railroad non linear adventure of some sort though

[Jean de Valette]

Xangcris wrote...

Mass Effect 2 = 3rd Person shooter with RPG elements

Don't care really as I enjoyed both games. Not perfect as they both had quirks that annoyed me but still awesome games.

TPG space adventure game would be more like it. We should minimize the "rpg" word in defining ME2, as Bioware have done their best in minimizing the "rpg" elements in their game.

That said as a TPS adventure game it's highly amusing. As an RPG (character developement, inventory, side quests, party banter, battlefield control) it's pretty poor. Which is why we shouldn't call it a RPG, so we can do a good game justice.

They say adventure game genre is dead but Bioware is actually evolving their games back to that genre. So good news for those fans.
For fans of the old Interplay RPGs, well, you're f*****. Those days are never coming back again. This is best explained by Roberta Williams of Phantasmagoria fame (read that by coincidence the other day). In the '90s the gaming demographics were different then today's gaming audiance. Gamers are younger, easily bored and expect action. In the '90s games were more expensive, and the audiance was older (and they expect a certain quality in their games).

What Bioware forgets is that there still is an older audiance who do remember what good games are like. And they also still play and pay for their games. So there's really no reason for the appeasement attitude Bioware is displaying these days. But all that's another discussion and it doesn't do ME2 justice.

[Sawp]

Who cares , anyway ?

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Karstedt wrote...
Maybe, but I admit nothing!

*draws sword* It's on!

There are a whopping 2 cinematic interactions between crew members not including a farily extensive back and forth in the cockpit. There were at least a dozen, probably twice that in banter in ME1 plus 1 cinematic banter. Yes, ME2's were cinematic and gave some sense of tension between some of the crew. But they were one shot shorties with maybe twice the actual dialog of an eleveater conversation from ME1.

I'm not denying here that character interactions were under-whelming. One shots definitely aren't the height of character interaction. But they are there, they are realistic (outside of being one shots), and done very well. Tali and Legion for example I found very interesting to deal with. While I loved ME1 elevator banter (How can you not?), the truth was that it's even less integrated than the side-quests. I could go a play through with at most one 'banter' occurring. If it were more integrated, I would definitely agree with you.

ME1 batner was very character building. Yes, Wrex antagonized Kaiden... he antagonized everyone. You get to see how the different crew members respond to that. The important thing here isn't that we learned that Wrex was a practical dry humored antagonistic troll (which is what makes him my favorite!), it's that we learned about the other characters as they each responded differently. His banter with Tali showed that she was quick and feisty, his chat with Kaiden showed us that Kaiden was an evasive follower (giving more contrast to his story about kicking the crap out of his trainer). Dare I say, Wrex is the reason we got to know our team in ME1? But seriously, you get a little tidbit of personality from each of those interactions.

True, but like I said it's very difficult to get them to converse with each other unless you choose to ride the elevator up and down repeatedly. I actually had to youtube most of them because of this. So I missed most of the Tali/Wrex development. The ME2 sequences are incorporated into the Normandy, so it's very difficult to miss them.

Whereas in ME2, we learn that Tali (a quarian no less) hates geth, and geth will spy on quarian aggression if given the chance... yeah... anyone that paid attention to the quarian/geth history could have told you that. I'm not saying pull the encounter, I'm just saying if you're only gonna have 2, that should been #10 on the list. And we also learn that a kid raised and abused in a Cerberus facility hates the loyal Cerberus chick that she has to compete with for Shep's attention... what part of that is news? Again, not saying pull it, but maybe put it at #9 on the list. These interactions give us nothing but a cinematic and possible loyalty choice.

I can see what you're saying about the Miranda-Jack sequence, but I personally would have put the Tali-Legion conflict at the forefront. It's funny seeing Tali get all emotional while Legion calmly examines the gun. Not to mention this is an extension of the Geth-Quarian conflict. I also enjoyed crew member interaction alot more.

And just so you don't get the idea that I'm completely unsatisfied with every aspect of ME2 character interaction. I'd like to point out that the squirmy dialog you get with Jack is absolutely great, Jack's VA does a great job there. And Garrus in particular got a major shot of personality over ME1 where he was practically a 3rd wheel. But still, the crew's interaction with Shep is fairly one dimensional.

So in summary: Wrex needs to come back in ME3. It will solve every problem ever in the universe! Short of that, bring back squad banter.

Nah, you never came off as an ME2 hater- you seem very moderate and I can definitely respect the way you look at it. I just think it eventually comes to preference-more detailed , but fewer dialogue sequences. Or more dialogue (depending on how often you ride the elevator), and less vivid.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 21 mars 2010 - 04:18 .

[Timerider42]

Good, cause RPGs suck anyway.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

Characters are just a branch of the plot.

Sorry, but no. When you list character interaction and plot as two separate issues, then one is obviously not a branch of the other. If that were the case, you could have just said 'plot', which includes character interaction. Please try again.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

Tabletops are boring.



Found this. Won't go into details but thought it was kind of interesting.

I'm going to pretend I'm an old-school d20 veteran. Here's what one might say:

"You are a video game fan boy. Any game, even ME, cannot grasp the full range of options or character interactions that an old school tabletop can. "

In a tabletop, if I capture an enemy, I have a couple options. I can set him free, I can kill him, I can set him free and help him with his life problems, or I can cut him up into bite size pieces and eat him. ME compared to this is already limited in choices. ME doesn't let you do this-it forces you to aid the Council, so it fails as an RPG.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 21 mars 2010 - 04:26 .

[javierabegazo]

Alright, if you want to discuss the shortcomings of ME2 in relation to being an RPG, you'll have to start over with a new thread with a less inflammatory Opening post. Don't start another thread with such a post, all it does is start trouble. You're a perfectly mature and intelligent poster SkullandBonesmember and I expect your threads to be such.