243 réponses à ce sujet

[SkullandBonesmember]

Karstedt wrote...

Baladas is right, you're being vague. Try something like this.

ME1 Good: Banter. While some peeople seem to overlook it, it's extremely useful in creating a sense of character interaction and relationship development.

ME2 Bad: A few conversation triggers scattered about simple failed to, in any way, equal the banter in ME1.

Rebuttal: Yeah, but you had to endure those long elevators to hear most of the banter, so that sucked.

Counter-rebuttal: I said the banter was great and important, not the hour long elevator rides. Banter can be implemented without long ass elevator rides, it has been done once or twice before you idiot!

Note: I normally avoid directly calling people idots on the forum, but since I was playing the part of idiotic responder, I took the liberty of be being honest about my behavior in that role.

Fine, I'll try to use some examples. I already mentioned Anderson acting like nothing happened. It doesn't take too much time or money to record 15 seconds worth of dialogue. "BUT U WUD STILL COMPLAIN". Okay, maybe I would, maybe I wouldn't. It's better than nothing though.

The Jack love scene. Totally clothed. A step backwards from  ME1. I'm not saying nudity NEEDS to be implemented. I would prefer it because it adds to the realism. Here's a quote of mine from the thread in the non spoiler section:

Even though we feel "nudity" adds quality and realism to the game, the argument of how we "just want
pr0n" will never die. Pretty much everybody in support of this were perfectly content with the romance scenes in the first game. We don't want a mini game to bust a load on Ashley's face.

They did it right with everybody else though by fading to black. Why should it have been any different with Jack's scene?

Modifié par SkullandBonesmember, 21 mars 2010 - 05:22 .

[SkullandBonesmember]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

1. True, but this happened to me in ME1 and other Bioware games. Characters run out of dialogue options. But you before said it was an issue of 'depth' and 'quality over quantity'. I would say talking with Thane revealed more about his past, species, and Drell Culture than Tali did, with much better animations. Is this not quality over quantity? If it's an issue, spread it out more. I did it in Kotor and ME1 (instead of milking them), and the result was much more enjoyable.

2. You just admitted that the dialogue is about the same quality between one and two. Shiny head shots  
just add to the goodnesss.

3. How does Shepard grow as a character in ME1? Examples. I played him as a ruthless renegade throughout. I didn't feel too much growth from him upon becoming a Spectre. Hell, the beacon imbibed him with the Prothean Culture yet he seems unaffected most of the time.

4. Are we really going to start with this? Neither game captures fully the range of options you can express in words. There are times even in ME1 where I would select a dialogue option and it wouldn't capture the exact expression I wanted from Shepard. That's the problem when you are given a dialogue wheel instead of a set list of responses to choose from.

There was very little actual quality though. Was it so crazy for me to think that Bioware was going to expand and evolve the immersion up to and including more dialogue between Shepard and others and party banter and have realism?

Modifié par SkullandBonesmember, 21 mars 2010 - 05:29 .

[Karstedt]

jasonontko wrote...

In Oblivion it was easier to aim in FPS than TPS but it really did not have an impact on how you view the story,  So I cant agree with your statment.?  Whether its TPS or FPS its the same story.

Dont know why this will not quote correctly.

Whit that comparison, I can see why you wouldn't get TPS vs FPS. Play Gears of War for 60 minutes, then play Half-Life 2 for 60 minutes. Then put together a gameplay comparison. Ignoring story, there are many differences beyond mere perspective. They are not drastic, though they do have a different feel. You can't compare changing camera in an RPG to playing a TPS or FPS... well you can, but it fails.

[SkullandBonesmember]

Karstedt wrote...

Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...

So your saying the game fails as a rpg, but you like playing it, therefore you complain about it?

That's missing an important part of the equation. He complains because he wishes a good game in a series he likes would reclaim it's lost RPGness. We dissapointed, want to be heard; so at the very least, BW won't go into ME3 thinking, "Why bother with depth at all, clearly everyone prefers a simple well executed TPS with good writing and cinematics to an involved RPG with a TPS combat system". Us RPGers feel like we're losing a jewel to the realm of mindless action. We are very lucky if we see 2 good RPG's per year. Good action shooter's are a dime a dozen in comparison. So it's understandable that we want to keep ME on our side. And yes, we will ****** and moan and kick and scream when we see it crossing the line out of our genre.

This.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

1. The Jack love scene. Totally clothed. A step backwards from  ME1. I'm not saying nudity NEEDS to be implemented. I would prefer it because it adds to the realism. Here's a quote of mine from the thread in the non spoiler section:

2. Even though we feel "nudity" adds quality and realism to the game, the argument of how we "just want
pr0n" will never die. Pretty much everybody in support of this were perfectly content with the romance scenes in the first game. We don't want a mini game to bust a load on Ashley's face.

3. They did it right with everybody else though by fading to black. Why should it have been any different with Jack's scene?

Ok, this is progress!

You're right in this context, it could have been handled better, although the cut scene did capture two elements of Jack (and video games) which most RPGs forego.

1) It's actually possible to have casual, meaningless sex in real-life! This is something most Bioware RPGs leave out. Even with the Asari 'consort' on the Citadel- there was some deeper meaning behind it. And it's very contrary to those meaningful romances we're used to. She screws you and refuses to even talk to after!

2) It captured Jack's character as a psycho-biotch. If you notice, they're pretty rough, shoving each other back and forth into tables among other things. Here, her character was developed even more through her actions, not even words. Sex is not always so 'angelic' and artful as you see in the movies.
 
This one instance means alot more to than a five minute convo where Kaidan explains how he flunked biotic school. For what it conveyed and the originality behind it, I'm willing to forego that she 'had clothes'.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 21 mars 2010 - 05:42 .

[SkullandBonesmember]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Ok, this is progress!

You're right in this context, it could have been handled better, although the cut scene did capture two elements of Jack (and video games) which most RPGs forego.

1) It's actually possible to have casual, meaningless sex in real-life! This is something most Bioware RPGs leave out. Even with the Asari 'consort' on the Citadel- there was some deeper meaning behind it. And it's very contrary to those meaningful romances we're used to. She screws you and refuses to even talk to after!

2) It captured Jack's character as a psycho-biotch. If you notice, they're pretty rough, shoving each other back and forth into tables among other things. Here, her character was developed even more through her actions, not even words. Sex is not always so 'angelic' and artful as you see in the movies.
 
This one instance means alot more to than a five minute convo where Kaidan explains how he flunked biotic school. For what it conveyed and the originality behind it, I'm willing to forego that she 'had clothes'.

Have you ever had meaningless sex while in clothes?

[SkullandBonesmember]

wiggles89 wrote...

Either you didn't see where the OP referred to Dead or Alive as a shooter or your sarcasm detector isn't charged.

Again, I didn't refer to it as a shooter. My point was if there isn't some form of 'SPLOSHUNS or brutality, most people aren't interested in it. There's some action in Heavy Rain, but even quite a few reviews mention in one way or another how it's not for "ADD riddled gamers".

[Karstedt]

monkeycamoran wrote...

Karstedt wrote...
That's missing an important part of the equation. He complains because he wishes a good game in a series he likes would reclaim it's lost RPGness. We dissapointed, want to be heard; so at the very least, BW won't go into ME3 thinking, "Why bother with depth at all, clearly everyone prefers a simple well executed TPS with good writing and cinematics to an involved RPG with a TPS combat system". Us RPGers feel like we're losing a jewel to the realm of mindless action. We are very lucky if we see 2 good RPG's per year. Good action shooter's are a dime a dozen in comparison. So it's understandable that we want to keep ME on our side. And yes, we will ****** and moan and kick and scream when we see it crossing the line out of our genre.

Hahahahahahaha! That's exactly the same sentiments a particularly notorious elitist RPG community feels about Mass Effect.

I'm a part of that notorious community. But I think "elitist" is a misnomer. Yes, we think our games/genre is better, but the action shooter crowd feels the same way about their games. It's really protectionist.

I mean, if Halo 4 decided to back off on action to put in long pauses for more planetary descriptions, character dialog, xp, powers, leveling and complex inventory along with breaks for running around a shopping space station so you can listen to advertisements and overhear conversations with inside jokes... I would expect the Halo fans to get pretty upset.

And you'd probably see me in the Halo forum telling them to shut up and deal with it... damn h8ers! Of course, that would just be me having fun as a troll.

[Karstedt]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

Have you ever had meaningless sex while in clothes?

Define sex...

[BaladasDemnevanni]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

Have you ever had meaningless sex while in clothes?

Have you ever had a 10 minute conversation in a casual environment where neither you or the other person do anything but turn your head?

[BaladasDemnevanni]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

There was very little actual quality though. Was it so crazy for me to think that Bioware was going to expand and evolve the immersion up to and including more dialogue between Shepard and others and party banter and have realism?

Depends what you consider 'realism'. Bioware down-played party banter, true. It also increased the amount of in-depth interactions between others, such as Miranda and Jack- Tali and Legion-Joker and EDI-and those two engineers. Hell, there was quite a bit of tension. Tali-pointing a gun-at Legion. Wrex calling Kaidan a whimp has little depth, no matter how funny it is.

But you're intent on saying there was less immersion. When I first had a crew in ME1 (Joker, Adams, Pressly, Chakwas), I was excited to see meaningful interaction with something other than a party member. Tell me, how 'immersed' did you feel when the dialogue options never changed-despite Kaidan/Ashley dying, despite becoming a Spectre, etc?  

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 21 mars 2010 - 06:05 .

[SkullandBonesmember]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Depends what you consider 'realism'. Bioware down-played party banter, true. It also increased the amount of in-depth interactions between others, such as Miranda and Jack- Tali and Legion-Joker and EDI-and those two engineers.

Excluding EDI and Joker, those were one time events. That's not "in depth".

[BaladasDemnevanni]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

Excluding EDI and Joker, those were one time events. That's not "in depth".

Again, do you consider Wrex teasing 'Kaidan' to be in-depth? Hell, party banter didn't even happen all the time, being replaced by news-casts. You could potentially go an entire play through without seeing any of this happen at all, especially if you used the same roster. In ME2, we see tension on the ship- and it does come close to exploding, whether you believe it or not.
 
How is yours equivalent, or better in any way?

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 21 mars 2010 - 06:13 .

[Sigma Tauri]

Karstedt wrote...
\\\\\\\\I'm a part of that notorious community. But I think "elitist" is a misnomer. Yes, we think our games/genre is better, but the action shooter crowd feels the same way about their games. It's really protectionist.

I mean, if Halo 4 decided to back off on action to put in long pauses for more planetary descriptions, character dialog, xp, powers, leveling and complex inventory along with breaks for running around a shopping space station so you can listen to advertisements and overhear conversations with inside jokes... I would expect the Halo fans to get pretty upset.

And you'd probably see me in the Halo forum telling them to shut up and deal with it... damn h8ers! Of course, that would just be me having fun as a troll.

Ha! What a surpise! I knew there are people who have moderate attitudes to Bioware, but I never considered meeting you considering how much Bioware and Bethesda hate overwhelms their fora. I mean Mass Effect isn't exactly a favorite.

Hey, I sympathize and lament with them the quick loss of the RPG genre for the sake of hybridization. (I also happen to enjoy every moment when they make fun of that creep Pete Hines.) But, sometimes, I wonder whether it's worthwhile fighting this trend, especially if major RPG developers have just shunned even good advice from your community (in spite of the profanity). Better to take the elitist comment as a compliment. So far, I like their taste in games, but not really their conviction.

Modifié par monkeycamoran, 21 mars 2010 - 06:28 .

[Death_Stalks_All]

I think ME2 was a great RPG with a good story, but the fact that everyone either assumes that the crew dies or ignores them completely after the suicide mission is just.... wtf? they're like 10 feet away!

The game pretty much loses point right after everyone completely talks with Commander Sheppard, assuming you did every single probe mission, and all that's left to be done is either replay the game or play something else until Bioware makes another downloadable content mission.

Also, I find it odd how Jack, Miranda, and Tali and can get into some sort of argument with each other, but how the male characters always stay in the same location unless they're called to go into battle or something, also how no one EVER goes to bed in the game.

Overall, it's a very good RPG, I'll play the same character a dozen times over each time doing the exact same options, but it needs MORE interaction, how about sometimes after a mission everyone goes to the mess hall, or people get some shut eye in game? How about we can do the Romance Scene more then once?

[SkullandBonesmember]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Again, do you consider Wrex teasing 'Kaidan' to be in-depth? Hell, party banter didn't even happen all the time, being replaced by news-casts. You could potentially go an entire play through without seeing any of this happen at all, especially if you used the same roster. In ME2, we see tension on the ship- and it does come close to exploding, whether you believe it or not.
 
How is yours equivalent, or better in any way?

No, I don't. But let me elaborate again. There was no need for "tactics" in ME1. It's obvious more resources went into the story overall in ME1 whereas in ME2 more resources went into combat. The combat is what gets the most attention in ME2, but story overall got the most attention in ME1. The reason the Halo tards complained was because there was little focus on intricate, complex combat. Now the opposite has happened. There's complex combat which is the biggest focus of the game, and now RPG fans are complaining.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

1. No, I don't. But let me elaborate again. There was no need for "tactics" in ME1. It's obvious more resources went into the story overall in ME1 whereas in ME2 more resources went into combat. The combat is what gets the most attention in ME2, but story overall got the most attention in ME1.

2. The reason the Halo tards complained was because there was little focus on intricate, complex combat. Now the opposite has happened. There's complex combat which is the biggest focus of the game, and now RPG fans are complaining.

1. I personally thought tactics were a big deal in ME1 by combining my squad mate's powers with each other, at least combat and biotic abilities. I found tech skills very underwhelming and unenjoyable. I don't see how fleshing out combat is a bad thing and it can help with consistency. AI is one example. Garrus should be a bad ass in theory, but he acts like a retard in combat scenarios. I found that inconsistent.

You did, to some degree, admit just now that the character interaction wasn't worse in ME2 within the confines of the Jack example. So are you saying now that it was plot-not character interaction- which got the shaft? Or would you like to provide a different example?

2. The combat doesn't feel that complex to me. That's honestly my problem with it. I liked having 50 random skills which I could upgrade at my own leisure. But so far you've mentioned 'complex combat' and 'RPG fans complaining'. I'm an RPG fan; I've played Dragon Age, DnD, Kotor, ME1/2, among others. What specifically should I be complaining about?

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 21 mars 2010 - 06:55 .

[Kalfear]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Calling them fanboys hurts their feelings OP.

LOL I think it did!

You know, people might take the "Game is perfek" crowd more serious if they stoped trolling every negative comment at game and started to say something to back up their opinion.

But as usual, someone makes a solid post of known issues in game and he/she gets trolled by 13 years olds that cant form intellegent sentances and rebutals!

Typical for Bioware forums as of late Im sad to say.

PS: Skull I made a thread that doesnt have the trolls regarding game missing the mark on conversations and RPG elements (beyond inventory and game mechanic stuff), link in my signature

Modifié par Kalfear, 21 mars 2010 - 07:10 .

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Kalfear wrote...

LOL I think it did!

You know, people might take the "Game is perfek" crowd more serious if they stoped trolling every negative comment at game and started to say something to back up their opinion.

But as usual, someone makes a solid post of known issues in game and he/she gets trolled by 13 years olds that cant form intellegent sentances and rebutals!

Typical for Bioware forums as of late Im sad to say.

We all like to think the other side's the problem. "Game is perfek" crowd? "Failure as an RPG" isn't exactly a fair assessment either. ME2 isn't perfect. But people are overly nostalgic and forget ME1 was criticized for alot of the same things when it came out.

[SkullandBonesmember]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

1. I personally thought tactics were a big deal in ME1 by combining my squad mate's powers with each other, at least combat and biotic abilities. I found tech skills very underwhelming and unenjoyable. I don't see how fleshing out combat is a bad thing and it can help with consistency. AI is one example. Garrus should be a bad ass in theory, but he acts like a retard in combat scenarios. I found that inconsistent.

You did, to some degree, admit just now that the character interaction wasn't worse in ME2 within the confines of the Jack example. So are you saying now that it was plot-not character interaction- which got the shaft? Or would you like to provide a different example?

Characters are just a branch of the plot.

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

2. The combat doesn't feel that complex to me. That's honestly my problem with it. I liked having 50 random skills which I could upgrade at my own leisure. But so far you've mentioned 'complex combat' and 'RPG fans complaining'. I'm an RPG fan; I've played Dragon Age, DnD, Kotor, ME1/2, among others. What specifically should I be complaining about?

Are you saying you liked the combat in ME1? If so, I agree but the Halo tards from the original board felt otherwise.

[Karstedt]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

You did, to some degree, admit just now that the character interaction wasn't worse in ME2 within the confines of the Jack example. So are you saying now that it was plot-not character interaction- which got the shaft? Or would you like to provide a different example?

Maybe, but I admit nothing! There are a whopping 2 cinematic interactions between crew members not including a farily extensive back and forth in the cockpit. There were at least a dozen, probably twice that in banter in ME1 plus 1 cinematic banter. Yes, ME2's were cinematic and gave some sense of tension between some of the crew. But they were one shot shorties with maybe twice the actual dialog of an eleveater conversation from ME1.

ME1 batner was very character building. Yes, Wrex antagonized Kaiden... he antagonized everyone. You get to see how the different crew members respond to that. The important thing here isn't that we learned that Wrex was a practical dry humored antagonistic troll (which is what makes him my favorite!), it's that we learned about the other characters as they each responded differently. His banter with Tali showed that she was quick and feisty, his chat with Kaiden showed us that Kaiden was an evasive follower (giving more contrast to his story about kicking the crap out of his trainer). Dare I say, Wrex is the reason we got to know our team in ME1? But seriously, you get a little tidbit of personality from each of those interactions.

Whereas in ME2, we learn that Tali (a quarian no less) hates geth, and geth will spy on quarian aggression if given the chance... yeah... anyone that paid attention to the quarian/geth history could have told you that. I'm not saying pull the encounter, I'm just saying if you're only gonna have 2, that should been #10 on the list. And we also learn that a kid raised and abused in a Cerberus facility hates the loyal Cerberus chick that she has to compete with for Shep's attention... what part of that is news? Again, not saying pull it, but maybe put it at #9 on the list. These interactions give us nothing but a cinematic and possible loyalty choice.

And just so you don't get the idea that I'm completely unsatisfied with every aspect of ME2 character interaction. I'd like to point out that the squirmy dialog you get with Jack is absolutely great, Jack's VA does a great job there. And Garrus in particular got a major shot of personality over ME1 where he was practically a 3rd wheel. But still, the crew's interaction with Shep is fairly one dimensional. Getting even a little taste from each one on how they relate to each other (aside from the 2 most obviously antagonistic pairs) gives us a lot more depth, and I think, attachment.

So in summary: Wrex needs to come back in ME3. It will solve every problem ever in the universe! Short of that, bring back squad banter.

Modifié par Karstedt, 21 mars 2010 - 07:49 .

[harrykim306]

I think they gutted out all the best bits of Mass Effect 1 and kept in the worse bits and what we are left with is an above average shooter with no rpg ellements.

[Onyx Jaguar]

harrykim306 wrote...

I think they gutted out all the best bits of Mass Effect 1 and kept in the worse bits and what we are left with is an above average shooter with no rpg ellements.

Define RPG elements.

Modifié par Onyx Jaguar, 21 mars 2010 - 08:00 .