293 réponses à ce sujet

[Feraele]

Well said Griefer..two thumbs up.

[gulegule]

Ryzaki wrote...

...and what proof do you have that those people would have bought the game in the first place? 

It's reasonable to think some of them would have.  What is unreasonable is to count every instance of piracy at full face value 'dollar lost'.  That get's bandied about a lot by industry groups and is never very credible.

What is interesting to think about is how many people would purchase vs. pirate if the box was $1 cheaper?  I've often thought the single best weapon publishers have vs. pirates is lowering prices.  It totally put a stop to dubbing VHS tapes in the 80s.  Prices on those went from hundreds of dollars to 10-15 and piracy just ended, no one could be bothered.

[Feraele]

And...VHS is obsolete..so who won that one?

[Bullets McDeath]

I was going to pop in and add a few more points to the debate, but upon momentary reflection I see the futility in it. If you have to explain to someone why pirating is bad, they're probably not worth the effort of the explanation.

If you saw someone sitting on a park bench getting ready to pick their teeth with a battery powered electric drill and you said to them "hey man, that's really dangerous" and their response was "really? how so? where is your proof? define danger.", you would hopefully recognize them as too stupid to live and get on with your day.

It's the same thing here. If you honestly lack the common sense to see why you shouldn't pirate games, you're a moron. So that's my post. Goodnight!

Modifié par outlaworacle, 21 mars 2010 - 03:52 .

[Ryzaki]

gulegule wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

...and what proof do you have that those people would have bought the game in the first place? 

It's reasonable to think some of them would have.  What is unreasonable is to count every instance of piracy at full face value 'dollar lost'.  That get's bandied about a lot by industry groups and is never very credible.

What is interesting to think about is how many people would purchase vs. pirate if the box was $1 cheaper?  I've often thought the single best weapon publishers have vs. pirates is lowering prices.  It totally put a stop to dubbing VHS tapes in the 80s.  Prices on those went from hundreds of dollars to 10-15 and piracy just ended, no one could be bothered.

I agree but to say its X amount of sales lost is ludcrious. How do you know X sales were gained? How do you know if someone wasn't going to buy it either way? 

True. I think that's the reason piracy on the PS3 is pratically non-existant. Do you really want to blow a whole bunch of money on blu-ray discs and have the chance that it won't even work instead of just buying the game and having it guarnanteed to work? That's why I love my PS3. Low piracy rates and I don't have to worry about DRM hapering my games.

...though the save game lock on DA is not cool BioWare...not cool at all. <_<

Piracy can be somewhat hapered however: by moving to consoles with stricter restrictions. However most people don't want that.

I don't think anyone here is saying piracy isn't wrong other than the OP. Or at least I'm not.

Feraele wrote...

And...VHS is obsolete..so who won that
one?

VHS is obsolete for the same reason SD TVs are
becoming obsolete. Its called evolving technology.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 mars 2010 - 03:57 .

[gulegule]

Ryzaki wrote...

I agree but to say its X amount of sales lost is ludcrious. How do you know X sales were gained? How do you know if someone wasn't going to buy it either way? 

You can't say definitively, which is why most people quoting hard numbers are full of it.  But it's reasonable to expect that there is a non-zero number who would behave differently if piracy was not an option.  I think it's very near zero, but nonzero none the less.

Modifié par gulegule, 21 mars 2010 - 03:59 .

[Ryzaki]

gulegule wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

I agree but to say its X amount of sales lost is ludcrious. How do you know X sales were gained? How do you know if someone wasn't going to buy it either way? 

You can't say definitively, which is why most people quoting hard numbers are full of it.  But it's reasonable to expect that there is a non-zero number who would behave differently if piracy was not an option.

True. But having no proof on how large that number is makes the whole "piracy is killing gaming!!!" argument moot. Can't know that unless we know how many pirates would have bought the game in the first place. I'm not saying it doesn't exist. It does and it does hurt the game companies. Though to say its killing them without solid evidence....

[gulegule]

Feraele wrote...

And...VHS is obsolete..so who won that one?

Sony

[gulegule]

outlaworacle wrote...

I was going to pop in and add a few more points to the debate, but upon momentary reflection I see the futility in it. If you have to explain to someone why pirating is bad, they're probably not worth the effort of the explanation.

If you saw someone sitting on a park bench getting ready to pick their teeth with a battery powered electric drill and you said to them "hey man, that's really dangerous" and their response was "really? how so? where is your proof? define danger.", you would hopefully recognize them as too stupid to live and get on with your day.

It's the same thing here. If you honestly lack the common sense to see why you shouldn't pirate games, you're a moron. So that's my post. Goodnight!

Thanks you for explaining why you add nothing to the discussion.... at some lenght

[gulegule]

mrfoo1 wrote...
Rights of Ownership are not extended to the products of intellectual design save a minority of products which video games and for example movies are not a part of. So .... there??

First sale doctrine applies to Movies, Books and Software.

Lest you believe garage sales are all criminal enterprises?  And that grandma giving lil timmy a copy of WOW for cristmas is prosecutable?

So there indeed!

[Feraele]

So if I walk into a grocery store...steal a bag of...cookies..and the owner catches me..I can just say I'm pirating and not stealing? Just walk out of the store and not get prosecuted? hehe



Righto.

[Beerfish]

Snugglepus wrote...

 These days, when there are no game demos, and you find out what you pay for only after you open a sealed box, piracy begins to look like the only way to determine if given product is worth its price, considering how game footage montage, developer interviews and bribed reviews are different from what you actually get. 
If everyone suddenly chooses philosophy of "If you like the game, buy it(After you played it)", will it motivate developers to be more interested in releasing best quality product possible to make their fans feel the need to pay for it as an honorable and well deserved act?
My answer is - most likely.

Idiotic thought when you compare a game to any other consumer product you buy. 

Can you steal shoes from a store and then decide whether they are worthy of your money?

Can you eat a pizza wihtout paying for it because it might not be worth your dollars?

Can you open a botle of scotch in a liquor store and drink it then decide whether to pay for it?

Can you put a book in your pocket, take it home without paying for it and then decide whether you want to pay for it?

You take the chance on the game and buy and be happy or regret buying it.  To increase your chances of a postiive expereince you read trusted reviews, go to game forums and wait to buy it.  You don't like the big game reviews?  Actually hang around the forums of the said game and you should be able to determine if you have a good chance of liking it or not.  In the end, take your lumps if you buy a bad game but don't steal the damn thing.

[gulegule]

Ryzaki wrote...

True. But having no proof on how large that number is makes the whole "piracy is killing gaming!!!" argument moot. Can't know that unless we know how many pirates would have bought the game in the first place. I'm not saying it doesn't exist. It does and it does hurt the game companies. Though to say its killing them without solid evidence....

I agree.  Interesting though that most PC new release titles at $50 and consoles are $60.  Assuming pirates are price sensitive, it may be all this fuss about DRM is mainly aimed at squeezing out another ten dollars.

[Feraele]

And..its like the chicken and egg question..which came first..the drm or the pirates? In this case the pirates...so they are the cause of that. So who do we have to blame for drm in games....

[Ryzaki]

gulegule wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

True. But having no proof on how large that number is makes the whole "piracy is killing gaming!!!" argument moot. Can't know that unless we know how many pirates would have bought the game in the first place. I'm not saying it doesn't exist. It does and it does hurt the game companies. Though to say its killing them without solid evidence....

I agree.  Interesting though that most PC new release titles at $50 and consoles are $60.  Assuming pirates are price sensitive, it may be all this fuss about DRM is mainly aimed at squeezing out another ten dollars.

That's the only thing that upsets me about console gaming. Why on earth am I paying more for games? Though I guess they have to recoup the price from used game sales somehow. I stopped buying new games after being burned by KHCOM for PS2 never again! NEVER! Only people I ever buy new from now is if its a Persona game.

It really sucks because console games usually take forever to go down in price too. Then they act all surprised when I rather buy the used game that's $20 bucks then the game that has been out for nearly half a year that still is 60 bucks.

Edit: On the topic of demos Heavy Rain demo is what made several people I know run and buy it.

Does DAA even have a demo? 
I'm damn near positive DA didn't have a demo. (They did have a lot of those showcasing but nothing beats a good demo).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 mars 2010 - 04:28 .

[hexaligned]

Feraele wrote...

So if I walk into a grocery store...steal a bag of...cookies..and the owner catches me..I can just say I'm pirating and not stealing? Just walk out of the store and not get prosecuted? hehe

Righto.

No, because stealing a bag of cookies from a store is illegal.  Playing a second hand copy of a game before decideing if you want to buy it, is not.  If you were to take said game and alter it in some way, and start distrubting copies of it, that would be illegal (well actually it's a grey area even then depending on the method of distribution, but thats due more to loopholes than intent)

Modifié par relhart, 21 mars 2010 - 04:32 .

[Dragon Age1103]

Snugglepus wrote...

 These days, when there are no game demos, and you find out what you pay for only after you open a sealed box, piracy begins to look like the only way to determine if given product is worth its price, considering how game footage montage, developer interviews and bribed reviews are different from what you actually get. 
If everyone suddenly chooses philosophy of "If you like the game, buy it(After you played it)", will it motivate developers to be more interested in releasing best quality product possible to make their fans feel the need to pay for it as an honorable and well deserved act?
My answer is - most likely.

  I can't agree. I think Devs & especially publishers like EA will just put us through more & more crap to try & stop piracy. I meant look at AC2 or C&C4 sometimes this adds good & bad but I do hope you are right & we see more demos or in game footage previews. 
  I think most of the time you can tell if a game is worth buying since you know your own tastes but some times it is hard with new series. I mean I purchased ME2 & boy do I regret that, it was good but not great & not worth my money. I could of rented it & finished it in 3 or 4 days instead of wasting money on such a shallow RPG. So b/c of that I really hope you're right but I knew the risk when I bought ME2 since I really disliked ME1(gameplay & UI not story).
      Anyways I think things might get much worse & completely ridiculous before devs & publishers like EA crack & give in to help stop piracy by giving us higher quality games & demos instead of running us through a bunch of registrations & requiring us to be online in order to play a single player game.

[gulegule]

Beerfish wrote...

Idiotic thought when you compare a game to any other consumer product you buy. 

Can you steal shoes from a store and then decide whether they are worthy of your money?

Can you eat a pizza wihtout paying for it because it might not be worth your dollars?

Can you open a botle of scotch in a liquor store and drink it then decide whether to pay for it?

Can you put a book in your pocket, take it home without paying for it and then decide whether you want to pay for it?

Argument through analogy is also idiotic.  You can try on shoes in the store, you can read a book at the shelves, you CAN send back food you don't like.  As for the scotch thing, that would probably get you shot 

That said, don't pirate videogames please

[gulegule]

mrfoo1 wrote...

If they are selling those products at profit then yes it is an illegal transaction and criminal. As is little timmy getting a copy of WoW from his mema. As I said. Most companies aren't going to go after the people who have spent the money on the product. So again I reiterate: most corps. aren't going to go after little timmy showhorn.

How about brick and mortar game stores the?  GameStop's whole business model is buying used games and reselling them at a markup.  They're a national chain with big pockets and someone EA really dislikes.  Why do you think they haven't been sued out of existence?

Cause if EA brought this suit they'd lose.

[kingthrall]

I used to pirate games ages ago, back when starcraft and diablo 1 were the the latest release. Nowdays everything i buy is legit. Companies hate piracy because these lose money and the people who produce these games hate pirates even more because they steal their goods after all the hard effort (or we like to think).

Ive also never downloaded demo's. they are like the Junk food of the PC world. All they do is clog up your computer with advertisments and a dodgy game.

Piracy is a very real thing, just like terrorism it will never cease to exsist even when we think its dissapeared. Its when piracy is done on a industrial scale that i belive is a serious offence. One of the most annoying things that happens and still does, is that the bloody idiots who make these games expect two copies of the game if you want to play over a LAN internet connection (because the cd keys are the same). Very rarely if at all have i seen people not use some way to copy their game to play over lan.

This is why i usually end up having a second copy or using Deamon tools to keep my origional unscratched because companies are too stupid to think for the average customer who wants to play a freindly game with their freinds online.

Bethesda and a lot of other single player games still make millions with minimal piracy because people belive to support companies that provide decent games. However You got to ask yourself why CA made Empire total war for an exsample it had over 900 pages of complaints on the forum after less than a week of its release due to the extreme bugs in it, and people wonder why piracy exsists.

you reap what you sow , in otherwords if you dont provide the neccecary means to archive the consumers benchmark they will find a way to reach it. This obvously does not apply to the mass piracy producers which should be all shut down.

Modifié par kingthrall, 21 mars 2010 - 04:52 .

[Jenocide]

gulegule wrote...

mrfoo1 wrote...

If they are selling those products at profit then yes it is an illegal transaction and criminal. As is little timmy getting a copy of WoW from his mema. As I said. Most companies aren't going to go after the people who have spent the money on the product. So again I reiterate: most corps. aren't going to go after little timmy showhorn.

How about brick and mortar game stores the?  GameStop's whole business model is buying used games and reselling them at a markup.  They're a national chain with big pockets and someone EA really dislikes.  Why do you think they haven't been sued out of existence?

Cause if EA brought this suit they'd lose.

EA is allowed to sue people that break Copyright law. If Gamestop was burning games then selling the copy for profit then EA could Sue them for lots of money. What Gamestop dose it buy "Hard" copys of games and re-sell them profit its the same as a used car dealer.

[Johanry]

outlaworacle wrote...

Snugglepuss, there's nothing honorable about downloading games for free, even if you do pay for it later. For the games you don't end up paying for, you still stole it. There's no other product in the world you could use this argument for (feel free to try if you want, I guess).

It works for all intelectual property items (Music, Movies, Games, Books)

Other products you try before you buy include:
Cars, Furniture, Food, Audio Equipment etc

Anyhow, a fun fact is that I bought Mass Effect 2, Dragon Age Origins and Dragon Age Awakenings before I downloaded them, why did I download them? Because the pirates released the game several days before it was unlocked on Steam

I bet games companies lose a ton of money from the "Must have noew!!!" generation when they allow pirates to release the game before they do. (Why does downloadable games get released later in Europe anyhow o.O?)

Modifié par Johanry, 21 mars 2010 - 05:22 .