47 réponses à ce sujet

[LarsLausen]

Cailans Armour for AW is not as good as Warden Commanders. The only differnce I see is loss of +all attributes and more armour for cailins set.

I'm using the Helm of Honnoleth and Warden Commander Set w/ 3x 5 Willpower runes on my Arcane Warrior/Bloodmage/Battlemage with Cailans Sword/Shield (and a mod that kills the Sword sheathing thing - because it's stupid :x ) and it works pretty good. (Cailans Weapon set is kewl.)

Thanks to to the +5,75 stamina/mana regain from cailans arms i can keep up a ****load of sustainables even those that drain mana "rapidly" and still do sufficient damage (and don't die) I have armour around 68 (rock spell and stuff) enemies do 1 damage or 0 when they hit
Mental and Physical res about 150 each

It was my first Arcane Warrior and he was missing a couple of quests and especially Items from orzhammer (dragon - never knew there was one until after the third playthrough) and wade's items. Still didn't find a better overall armour for him then the Warder Commanders.

Fatigue is >150% with all sustainables - but you can forget about that - you cast a couple spells hand of winter/paralyze and then just switch to bloodmagic.

You're going to be a lean mean killing maschine with AW

Modifié par LarsLausen, 22 mars 2010 - 04:21 .

[dkristof]

deleted

Modifié par dkristof, 25 mars 2010 - 10:32 .

[dkristof]

deleted

Modifié par dkristof, 25 mars 2010 - 10:32 .

[Novadove]

my point is, looke at cailen's armor set's individual items.



corruption vs cailen helm, corruption wins

hi'rol's helm vs cailen helm, hi'rol's helm wins



evon plate vs cailen plate, evon wins.



though out of the topic, let's compare gloves.

cailen glove is USELESS for AW. period.

even diligence glove is better for AW if it is a tank AW.

if you are a bm AW, you should know which glove i am thinking.



now boots.

perhaps is the only boot WORTH the trouble to put on but again, there are far more better boots than cailen's. unless you are a dodge build set up AW, just by wearing cailen's 20% compare to evon+cailen's 30%, with +1hp & +1mp, i will choose the later.



i dislike corruption but VS crushing prison, your puny +5hp regen from cailen's set wont save you as effectively as corruption helm.



the whole point of argument is, whether individual parts or total combination, they are not the universal truth to the end-end-end game fact that cailen's set "IS THE BEST" for AW.



there are other combinations will beat the crap out of cailen's any time.



also, pardon me for not reading the whole wall of text.

[Novadove]

somewhere in your post, you said "Dodge is far less important than armor as an AW"



so that makes cailen's boots useless as well =P

[Xeremius]

Very interesting reading where I could appreciate how a biased opinion can be presented as logical and so the only way to go...

dkristof wrote...

Mr_Raider wrote...

Evon + Wade'sis critical for AW's because it can give you the same armor as massive armor for only 3.6% net fatigue. The mana regen is a big deal. It allows you to keep shimmering shield up without draining your mana. You just don't take that much damage as an AW, so the extra health regen form cailan's armor is best given to a warrior in the party.

It is NOT the same armor when you factor in the lower armor from gloves and boots. As stated above, it is 4.75 less armor than Cailan's Set and 8% less fatigue. Which is more valuable? I believe 4.75 is 10x more valuable as it reduces all incoming physical damage by 4.75. That means if you get hit 10 times, it cancels 47.5 damage, it takes only 21 hits for this to equal 100 damage. Ever been overwhelmed? Ever been overwhelmed twice in a row? That's over 100 damage prevented right there and will save your life many times. There is never any shortage of mana so 8% fatigue is meaningless. If you do the math on tier scaling you will see that the game creators also believe 4.75 armor is more valuable.

- The OP asked for the best AW armor without excluding any type. Why do you exclude from your analysis Wade's heavy superior dragonscale armor ? Let me guess...that's not your playstyle...
- If you're a casting AW relying on Blood magic only when it's necessary I don't see how the +25 stamina, +2 stamina regeneration and 3.4% overall fatigue could be worse than Cailan's set. Oh, I remember you're a true blood mage...but why in this case drinking an infinite supply of health potions is better than drinking an infinite supply of mana potions ? Let me guess...that's your playstyle...
- Sure, a massive armor gives better protection than a heavy one, but honestly with all the buffs you and your companions can cast, how often do you get hit ?
- Being overwhelmed is a nasty experience I agree but correct me if I'm wrong, isn't a high physical resistance the best way to get protected against that ? With Shimering Shield and the right runestone in your starfang sword you reach 100% ...

dkristof wrote...

kidnotorious15 wrote...

It actually depends on how you play your AW. If you relly on bloodmagic to cast spells, then yes, Cailan's arms is superior without question (Do remember that the set bonus will only work if you equip it with the helm, I once played an entire playthrough with helm of honneleth thinking that I already have the set bonus).

If you preffer to cast spells with mana I'd go with Evon's + Wade's superior dragonscale gloves and boots. If you still insist on running with Cailan's arms with this type of AW then the set bonus which adds +health regen is useless.

As stated before, the minor 8% fatigue makes no difference and you have infinite lyrium potions to deal with this anyways, so it is a non-factor. If you are seriously using Evon/Dragon set over Cailan's for the mana regen then there is no point in talking to you about this anyways.

Once again I don't understand why drinking mana potions is more pointless than drinking health potions ?

dkristof wrote...

Novadove wrote...

i agree with kidnotorious15

i bring 1 bard and 2 AW purely for haste and cure while i solo everything with my bard.
i let one wear evon with a total of 45% attack dodge, 6 mana regen.
the other is full magic resist build of 65% in reaper's vestment.

cailan's mail on the other hand, in my opinion, is one of the useless armor compare to many others
no matter how i combine.

but again, i am a heavy magic resist build person =P

This strategy makes no sense since Cailan's Armor set gives you MORE dodge than Evon/Dragon set, and as covered numerous times above, mana regen is completely unnecessary. And if you want magic resist, just put 1 point in Spell Shield for automatic 75% resist. Not to mention Evon/Dragon doesn't give magic resist anyways so that is a completely unrelated topic.
But no matter how you slice it, Cailan's still comes out on top.

Yes, no matter how you slice it, it all depends on your playstyle...
Please before giving advices, in such a bold way, consider that your playstyle is not the only one...

Modifié par Xeremius, 23 mars 2010 - 05:09 .

[Novadove]

i think dkristof keep focusing on the point that playing DAO "HAS" to wear a full complete set IF the armor has a set and fail to see how different things can achieve different results



do you really have to wear cailen SET in a SET as a AW the moment you get it?

does it mean the BEST ULTIMATE uber awesome set in this game is cailen SET?



that is the point i am trying to drive at. nothing personal.



people in the forum say helm of hannelth + felon's coat is best for rogue but i feel corruption + evon is better with slightly lower damage but greater protection. <--- it is fine!!



you can wear cailen whole set as you wish but your blood mage AW casts tempest, swing staff meleeing Queen of blackmarsh compare to a golem shell heavy armor AW with 85% all elemental resist and not casting chain lightning



you get the point?



forget about the whole SET thing. just compare warden commander armor BODY alone with cailen BODY plate,



anytime, i will choose warden over cailen.



just my 2 cents

[Mr_Raider]

WAde's armor + Evon gives almost as much protection as any massive armor.



The +2 regen in mana helps balance out the drain from shimmering shield. If you wear anduils blessing, wade's armor, spellweaver + fade wall, and have combat traing 2 + fade shroud, you will fully balance the mana drain from shimmering shield. Remember that +15 armor, 75% elemental resist and 100 mental and physical.



If you are wielding cailan's arms on top of that, you can actually keep up spell might simultaneously.



Not a bad deal. But all this discussion misses the main point: I am not paying for RtO or Warden's peak DLCs!

[JaegerBane]

Dkristof, until you get it through your head that some people actually don't play their AWs as magetanks then you're simply not going to be able to comprehend what people are telling you. Take your comparison, for example:

dkristof wrote...

Please tell me this is a joke. 
Cailan's vs. WC Set:
WC bonuses over Cailan's:
+0.5 stamina regen (negligible/not noticable)
+10 fire resist (only useful in two fights the entire game; High Dragon and Flemeth)
+50 stamina (good)
+10 health (barely noticable)
+2 to all stats (very nice)

Cailan's bonuses over WC:
-23.5% fatigue (AMAZING)
+2.25 armor (very good)
+10 mental resist (good)
+5 physical resist (good)
+20% to dodge all attacks (RETARDEDLY AMAZING)
+5 health regen (INSANELY AWESOME)

This comparison lacks even a shred of impartiality. You seem to have decided that Arcane Warriors are about maxing out protection at the expense of everything else and you remain blind to every other detail.

For instance, you claim the WC's boots are merely 'good' despite the fact that they add the same amount of mana to your pool that over 3 levelups worth of Willpower boosts add, yet you practically orgasm over the fact that Cailan's armour provides an extra 2.25 point sof armour. Seriously man, that's a whole 2 points of damage saved per hit. How is that 'very good'? Will you even notice it? Hell, you've even flat out ignored the -10% fatigue reduction on Warden Commander armour. What possible reasoning do you have for that? Either you forgot, in which case you shouldn't be lecturing people on which is best since you don't know what you're talking about, or you knew about it and left it out, in which case you're not advising, you're just raving mindlessly.

For a tanking AW, no question, Cailan's is better thanks to it's greater protection, but for an AW gish, who wants to split time between casting and fighting, all Cailan's actually adds is the extra 13% fatigue reduction. No extra mana, no extra mana regeneration, no extra stats, just better health and regen. On a gish build, if the dodge reduction is actually making a difference, you're clearly playing the character like an idiot. You shouldn't be actually taking any hits powerful enough to be a concern in the first place.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 24 mars 2010 - 05:13 .

[dkristof]

deleted

Modifié par dkristof, 25 mars 2010 - 10:32 .

[Xeremius]

Allways so funny reading you Kristof...

dkristof wrote...

 

Xeremius wrote...

- The OP asked for the best AW armor without excluding any type. Why do you exclude from your analysis Wade's heavy superior dragonscale armor ? Let me guess...that's not your playstyle...
- If you're a casting AW relying on Blood magic only when it's necessary I don't see how the +25 stamina, +2 stamina regeneration and 3.4% overall fatigue could be worse than Cailan's set. Oh, I remember you're a true blood mage...but why in this case drinking an infinite supply of health potions is better than drinking an infinite supply of mana potions ? Let me guess...that's your playstyle...
- Sure, a massive armor gives better protection than a heavy one, but honestly with all the buffs you and your companions can cast, how often do you get hit ?
- Being overwhelmed is a nasty experience I agree but correct me if I'm wrong, isn't a high physical resistance the best way to get protected against that ? With Shimering Shield and the right runestone in your starfang sword you reach 100% ...

Evon the Great's Mail only gives the set bonus with Wade's Superior DragonSCALE Armor, it does not combine with the Dragonbone. It is still a good set, just not comparable to Cailan's.

You should read carefully before giving any answer, this advice works in real life too...
So let's try to open your thick mind, once again:
You don't have to wear a massive armor to play a top notch AW. Believe me, or try to think about it a few seconds: when you want to be able to cast more than a couple of spells during a fight while being almost unhittable, Wade's Superior DragonSCALE Armor Set is a very good compromise.

dkristof wrote...
Blood Mage's only receive 10% of healing from potions or spells or any other source. Drinking health potions does not work. Even when you are not a blood mage, mages typically have very low HP and can not rely on chugging health potions as they are constantly at risk of dying. UNLESS you have insanely high armor and regen that is.

Thanks for defending my point: Blood Magic is subpar UNLESS you're wearing an armor which should be on your warrior tank team mate in the first place... 

dkristof wrote...
If you play on the hardest difficulty and/or solo, you get hit a LOT. Not necessarily by attacks, but by overwhelm, stun, grab, shield bash, pommel strike, etc. Things that you have no control over or defense against. Sure if you play on easy you won't have problems..... but again, any build works on any difficulty, some are just easier than others.

Concerning my playstyle and my favorite level of difficulty, I've never played more than a couple of hours on Hard, then on Nightmare which is, as everybody knows, a joke...
I never play solo a game  conceived as coop, probably because I'm an old school guy dreaming I could still play PnP RPGs with my old buddies...
I'm also a perfectionist who tried succesfully an ironman playthrough on my first playthrough.
So believe me (or not) with the appropriate buffs, nobody can seriously hit you...

dkristof wrote...
Physical resist provides NO PROTECTION against overwhelm or grab at all. There is no resistance check. Also, physical and mental resists are not a percentage, they are a comparative roll like attack or defense that goes against one of the enemy's stats, you can never have 100%. 

How can you be taken seriously when you even don't know the basics:
Even though it's not a percentage when you maximize your physical resistance you shorten so well the time spent disabled that it doesn't last more than 1 second. Try it ...and then...your apology will be accepted, no worry...

dkristof wrote...
Everybody seems to be missing the point of how important survivability is and how unimportant mana or stamina regen is. You are always able to use a lyrium potion before you run out of mana, you are not always able to use a health potion before you run out of hp. What if you are stunned or knocked down or disabled or grabbed or overwhelmed? How do you heal? The only way is regen. If you are out of mana? You use a lyrium pot when the disable is over because who cares about your mana while you are disabled, you cant do anything with it anyways.

Hopefully, one day you'll be able to listen and understand what people are trying to explain to you: my playstyle is also based on survivability and playing as a spellcasting mage in armor is far more funny than what you propose...

dkristof wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

Dkristof, until you get it through your head that some people actually don't play their AWs as magetanks then you're simply not going to be able to comprehend what people are telling you. Take your comparison, for example:

This comparison lacks even a shred of impartiality. You seem to have decided that Arcane Warriors are about maxing out protection at the expense of everything else and you remain blind to every other detail.

...

For a tanking AW, no question, Cailan's is better thanks to it's greater protection, but for an AW gish, who wants to split time between casting and fighting, all Cailan's actually adds is the extra 13% fatigue reduction. No extra mana, no extra mana regeneration, no extra stats, just better health and regen. On a gish build, if the dodge reduction is actually making a difference, you're clearly playing the character like an idiot. You shouldn't be actually taking any hits powerful enough to be a concern in the first place.

First - How many level ups worth of stats do you put into willpower? The answer should be ZERO. Because it is not an important stat. That's like saying an item adds 3 levels worth of magic to a warrior - how valuable is that when you don't plan on putting any points into it? Spellpower is the only (level up-able) stat of noteworthiness for mages. The others are nice, but really don't provide as much benefit.

Second - Okay I overlooked the -10% fatigue set bonus in my calculation above, edited for correction. Sorry, the Cailan's Set ONLY provides an additional 13.5% fatigue reduction over WC. Not as if that matters, since that is a small percentage of it's superior bonuses.

Third - if you don't want survivability, why are you playing a spec that is focused completely around the ability to wear heavy/massive armor without putting points in str? If you want no armor or regen or defense or dodge, wear a robe, not heavy armor. Or Felon's Coat. You are completely downplaying the strength of the AW spec.

Again, I would recommend you try turning it up above "Normal" difficulty. Maybe you will start to see which bonuses really matter and which ones don't.

I feel so sorry for you Kristof, do you really think you're the only one knowing how to play DA:O and especially an AW ?
Have you been struck so hard in real life, or do you think your whistle is so small, that you can't help playing a conceited young idiot on these anonymous forums...
Nothing personal of course, I'm pretty sure you're just acting like that ...

Modifié par Xeremius, 25 mars 2010 - 06:52 .

[JaegerBane]

dkristof wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

Dkristof, until you get it through your head that some people actually don't play their AWs as magetanks then you're simply not going to be able to comprehend what people are telling you. Take your comparison, for example:

This comparison lacks even a shred of impartiality. You seem to have decided that Arcane Warriors are about maxing out protection at the expense of everything else and you remain blind to every other detail.

For instance, you claim the WC's boots are merely 'good' despite the fact that they add the same amount of mana to your pool that over 3 levelups worth of Willpower boosts add, yet you practically orgasm over the fact that Cailan's armour provides an extra 2.25 point sof armour. Seriously man, that's a whole 2 points of damage saved per hit. How is that 'very good'? Will you even notice it? Hell, you've even flat out ignored the -10% fatigue reduction on Warden Commander armour. What possible reasoning do you have for that? Either you forgot, in which case you shouldn't be lecturing people on which is best since you don't know what you're talking about, or you knew about it and left it out, in which case you're not advising, you're just raving mindlessly.

For a tanking AW, no question, Cailan's is better thanks to it's greater protection, but for an AW gish, who wants to split time between casting and fighting, all Cailan's actually adds is the extra 13% fatigue reduction. No extra mana, no extra mana regeneration, no extra stats, just better health and regen. On a gish build, if the dodge reduction is actually making a difference, you're clearly playing the character like an idiot. You shouldn't be actually taking any hits powerful enough to be a concern in the first place.

First - How many level ups worth of stats do you put into willpower? The answer should be ZERO. Because it is not an important stat. That's like saying an item adds 3 levels worth of magic to a warrior - how valuable is that when you don't plan on putting any points into it? Spellpower is the only (level up-able) stat of noteworthiness for mages. The others are nice, but really don't provide as much benefit.

Wow. I don't think I've ever seen so much nonsense crammed into a single paragraph. Whew. There's so much wrong with this I think I need to address each thread:

1. The only optimal AW build that allows you to get away with adding no points into willpower is the bloodstain or AW/BM builds that use mana solely for sustainables and do all their active casting from their health bar... and this requires you to place the points normally spent into willpower into constitution instead. If you really have simply levelled up magic and neglected everything else then it's small wonder why you're so obsessed with Cailan's - such a build would be so gimped you'd need the best protection in the game just for it to function. No wonder you're harping on about resistances and surviving Overwhelms. Nightmare must actually be hard for you.

2. Claiming willpower - mage relationship bears any resemblance to warrior - magic relationship is nothing short of outright ignorance. Here's a hint, since it seems to have passed you by - mages cast spells. Spells need mana. You need willpower to get more mana. Warriors hit things. Magic plays no part in hitting. Is that clear enough?

3. There comes a point where the diminishing returns of adding to spellpower (just look at the forumlae) start to fall behind the advantage of not dying or not missing. At some point, any non-BM AW will need some kind of Dex and Will upgrade as without them they can't cast or hit.

4. Even if we accept your argument at face value that putting any points into Willpower is suboptimal, having a larger mana pool is always needed for a mage - and therefore that is an argument for taking WC boots and Honnleath helm, as these take the pressure off your lack of stats, not Cailan's, as it does neither.

Second - Okay I overlooked the -10% fatigue set bonus in my calculation above, edited for correction. Sorry, the Cailan's Set ONLY provides an additional 13.5% fatigue reduction over WC. Not as if that matters, since that is a small percentage of it's superior bonuses.

It isn't so much the fact that you overlooked it, it's the fact that you clearly don't understand what you're comparing to. You practically splurged over the Fatigue reduction earlier on, now that fatigue reduction isn't that far ahead on Cailan's as you initially thought compared to WC it's not relevant. Give me a break. You aren't carrying out an analysis here and picking the best armour on the list. For some reason you have an obsession with Cailan's and you've decided to ignore anything contrary to that view. Ordinarily that would be humorously pathetic, but in this case, it's just clouding the issue.

Third - if you don't want survivability, why are you playing a spec that is focused completely around the ability to wear heavy/massive armor without putting points in str? If you want no armor or regen or defense or dodge, wear a robe, not heavy armor. Or Felon's Coat. You are completely downplaying the strength of the AW spec.

Oh sweet lordy.

This isn't complicated, kristof. We're not asking you to think too hard here, after all.

The Arcane Warrior is not a class 'focused completely around the ability to wear armour without strength'. It is a class that allows a mage to fight like a warrior. Being able to wear heavy/massive armour is a partial side benefit of the first spell in a four-talent tree. No more, no less. There are dozens of highly optimised builds which make no use of armour at all. It's made fairly clear in the class and talent description. It uses a few big words here and there, so perhaps that is the reason you're confused. 

The 'strength' of an AW is the ability to fight like a warrior and cast spells. That is how the magetanks do it - load up on a ton of sustainables and wade in. The gish AWs switch in and out of combat magic so they can play both roles of mage and warrior. The Caster AWs simply take the first talent and use the side effect to wear some stuff that gives a bit more protection than robes.

Yours does not appear to be any of them - from what you've mentioned of your build, it's basically a gimped warrior who can cast a few spells before wearing out and depends on his armour the second any enemy even pays attention. Bravo, genius. You've just demonstrated how not to play the AW.

Again, I would recommend you try turning it up above "Normal" difficulty. Maybe you will start to see which bonuses really matter and which ones don't.

Normal? Hell Kristof, I'd advise you to play the game full stop. From what you're writing above it doesn't even sound like you've completed it. Xeremius has a point - you don't seem to be able to grasp the basics, let alone give out advice.

[dkristof]

Wow this is not worth the effort, I could go on for another 2 pages about the incorrect information in the last two replies (for starters: we all know phys resist does not reduce grab or overwhelm duration - how can you seriously post that??)



Anyways - I solo'd the entire game on nightmare with a mage with no problems (and a 2-H Warrior, although that is not really relevant here). I didn't even use a single potion in DAA on my first play through (exception: the baroness, the only fight in DAA that takes more than 30 seconds)



I am just pointing out statistics and the most effective way to use them. I have experimented with all the builds and am reporting statistical findings and effectivity of stats, nothing more. You are welcome to play however you want and use or not use whatever you want - as I have stated before, any build will work, some are just more effective than others.



I am so very sorry that you guys can't grasp basic game play concepts, functionality, and effectivity. I tried to help, but I can't help anyone that doesn't want to be helped. So enjoy your reloads when you can't beat that group of hurlocks on normal difficulty.

[beancounter501]

Xeremius wrote...
How can you be taken seriously when you even don't know the basics:
Even though it's not a percentage when you maximize your physical resistance you shorten so well the time spent disabled that it doesn't last more than 1 second. Try it ...and then...your apology will be accepted, no worry...

You sure about that?  There is no mention of that anywhere in the scripts for any overwhelm/grab ability.  Not that it could be checked somewhere else.  Does not really matter though, cause I break the grab within a second or two anyways.  Any knockdown, slip, paralyze or stun will break it.

JaegerBane wrote...

1. The only optimal AW build that allows you to get away with adding no points into willpower is the bloodstain or AW/BM builds that use mana solely for sustainables and do all their active casting from their health bar... and this requires you to place the points normally spent into willpower into constitution instead. If you really have simply levelled up magic and neglected everything else then it's small wonder why you're so obsessed with Cailan's - such a build would be so gimped you'd need the best protection in the game just for it to function. No wonder you're harping on about resistances and surviving Overwhelms. Nightmare must actually be hard for you.

2. Claiming willpower - mage relationship bears any resemblance to warrior - magic relationship is nothing short of outright ignorance. Here's a hint, since it seems to have passed you by - mages cast spells. Spells need mana. You need willpower to get more mana. Warriors hit things. Magic plays no part in hitting. Is that clear enough?

3. There comes a point where the diminishing returns of adding to spellpower (just look at the forumlae) start to fall behind the advantage of not dying or not missing. At some point, any non-BM AW will need some kind of Dex and Will upgrade as without them they can't cast or hit.

4. Even if we accept your argument at face value that putting any points into Willpower is suboptimal, having a larger mana pool is always needed for a mage - and therefore that is an argument for taking WC boots and Honnleath helm, as these take the pressure off your lack of stats, not Cailan's, as it does neither.

I do not put a single point into Willpower for my AW or any character for that matter.  The AW only need points in Willpower if you are running a god awful ton of sustains.  Sure, spells need mana.  But, there are lots of ways to get mana.  1 Potent Lyrim Potion = 200 Mana = 40 Willpower.  And I have basically unlimited mana potions.  Why bother.  Again unless you are running a TON of sustains.  Which a Gish or armored caster does not do.

How is placing points into spellpower give diminishing returns?  Thats makes zero sense.  Like saying a 2 hand Warrior should stop putting points into strength or a cunning rogue should stop raising cunning.  I have looked at the scripts.  A LOT.  More Spellpower = More Damage.   Don't follow your logic at all.

I also don't bother putting points in Dex for an AW at all.  Heroic Offense + Miasma + Combat Magic gives me an attack rating higher then any normal warrior.  Why bother with Dex?  Besides, melee attacks are for clean up.  By the point I turn on Combat Magic the battle is basically over.

Now, back on subject: Calians Armor is good - due to the big -25 Fatigue, + 4 Armor, 20% Dodge, and a massive +5 Regen.  Better then Warden Commanders + Helm of Honnealth.  Probably better then Evons + Wades Superior. 

Modifié par beancounter501, 26 mars 2010 - 02:50 .

[Mr_Raider]

beancounter501 wrote...


Now, back on subject: Calians Armor is good - due to the big -25 Fatigue, + 4 Armor, 20% Dodge, and a massive +5 Regen.  Better then Warden Commanders + Helm of Honnealth.  Probably better then Evons + Wades Superior. 

If you wear wade's set, you will have mana regen and chug health pots. If you use cailan, you will have health regen and chug lyrium. Heal converts mana to health. Blood magic converts health to mana. Same difference.

[JaegerBane]

beancounter501 wrote...
I do not put a single point into Willpower for my AW or any character for that matter.  The AW only need points in Willpower if you are running a god awful ton of sustains.  Sure, spells need mana.  But, there are lots of ways to get mana.  1 Potent Lyrim Potion = 200 Mana = 40 Willpower.  And I have basically unlimited mana potions.  Why bother.  Again unless you are running a TON of sustains.  Which a Gish or armored caster does not do.

Whether you have unlimited potions is neither here nor there. The point of the thread is to discuss the positives and negatives of of using Cailan's armour on an Arcane Warrior. Simply writing off a whole raft of stats on the basis that 'I can compensate with potions' is an pointless argument that could be used for any viewpoint, not just in support of Cailan's, as potions of both types are asy to acquire in vast numbers (and if you simply must argue that particular point, elfroot is a hell of a lot easier to get than lyrium, so it stands to reason that maintaining an unlimited stockpile of potions is easier with healt rather than mana).

How is placing points into spellpower give diminishing returns?  Thats makes zero sense.  Like saying a 2 hand Warrior should stop putting points into strength or a cunning rogue should stop raising cunning.  I have looked at the scripts.  A LOT.  More Spellpower = More Damage.   Don't follow your logic at all.

Diminishing in the sense that placing points in Magic at a very high level will not give your character the same kind of boost as you'd see from putting points into other stats that circumvent Mage weaknesses. For instance, once your magic score is in the 50 - 60's is getting an extra few points of damage per lightning bolt really worth more than improving the mage's low physical resistance?

Beancounter, no offence, but if you're not going to even try to understand the point before yakking on about 'zero sense', this discussion will go on for longer than it actually needs to.

I also don't bother putting points in Dex for an AW at all.  Heroic Offense + Miasma + Combat Magic gives me an attack rating higher then any normal warrior.  Why bother with Dex?  Besides, melee attacks are for clean up.  By the point I turn on Combat Magic the battle is basically over.

See, this is the part where we go back in circles again because someone has convinced themselves that their method of playing arcane warrior is the only way to play arcane warrior.

Why dex? Well, I dunno. I mean, I need dex to use the better daggers for dual wielding, dex helps with defence, which I need as much as I can get within reason, and it helps with physical resistance, which I also need as much as I can within reason,

Yeah. Why on earth would I pick dex?

Now, back on subject: Calians Armor is good - due to the big -25 Fatigue, + 4 Armor, 20% Dodge, and a massive +5 Regen.  Better then Warden Commanders + Helm of Honnealth.  Probably better then Evons + Wades Superior. 

*sigh*

'Cailian's armour is better because I say it is'

What an insightful argument. It probably would have been better if you'd just posted that and left it so that someone could spend the amount of attention it deserves on it. I may not agree with kristof, but at least he illustrated his argument rather than just blurt out statements.

[beancounter501]

@ Raider

It is a tough call between Wade+Evon vs Cailens. Both sets are very good and offer awesome benefits. I like Cailen's because it gives Massive Armor protection at the cost of basically Medium Armor Fatigue. The +5 health regen on top of that makes you extremely difficult to kill. The mages only real weakness is being squishy. Cailen's basically eliminates that. Besides I like to give Wade+Evon to my 2 Hand Warrior. He needs the lower fatigue since he can not use pots to regen stamina.



And while you can make unlimited Health & Stamina potions, the consequences of running out of health are a whole lot harsher then the consequences of running out of mana. I think we can both agree on that. Now if you want to run around with mana drain sustains like Shimmering Shield/Haste/Spell Might then Wade's + Evons is probably better. Just depends on how you want to play your character. I like the Gish/Armored Caster AW and I think Cailen's is the best for that build. Plus you can get Cailen's for free, right out of Lothering. It will take some time to get Wades.





@Jaegar

Potions are extremely important to the debate. With mana pots i can completely ignore willpower and still cast just as much as someone who put 20 or 30 points into willpower. And my spells are more effective. There is no potion to boost spellpower. Other then a few items the only way to boost spellpower is to put points in magic. Willpower is an extremely weak stat.



There is a huge difference between a mage who has a magic score over 90 vs a score of 50. Every mage power is driven by spellpower. Things like damage boost gear and debuffs like Afflection/Vulnerability Hex magnify this even more.



But don't take my word for it, lets look at an example. Lets say two mages cast Affliction Hex and then Stinging Swarm at a boss. Lets assume both mages are using nature damage boosting gear at the max allowed - 30%. With a spellpower of 90 Affliction Hex will debuff resistance by 57%. With a spellpower of 50 it will debuff resistance 45%.



At 90 spellpower Stinging Swarm will hit for 190 * 1.30 * 1.57 = 388 points.

At 50 spellpower Stinging Swarm will hit for 150 * 1.30 * 1.45 = 282 points.



Yep, that is just a couple of points more damage......



But you are playing an AW right? You want to hit things with your sword. Lets compare a mage who put 20 points into Willpower and 20 points into Dex vs a mage who put every stat into magic.



At spellpower of 50 Combat Magic gives 50/5 + 10 = 20 attack. Add another 10 points for Dex and you have an attack bonus of 30.

At spellpower of 90 Combat Magic gives 90/5 + 10 = 28.



OK you win. Your build gets an extra +2 attack. But my Spells hit a whole lot harder then yours.



There is no right or wrong to play the game. Boost dex and run around with dual daggers. Put 20 or 30 points into willpower. Play as you like.

[Xeremius]

beancounter501 wrote...

Xeremius wrote...
How can you be taken seriously when you even don't know the basics:
Even though it's not a percentage when you maximize your physical resistance you shorten so well the time spent disabled that it doesn't last more than 1 second. Try it ...and then...your apology will be accepted, no worry...

You sure about that?  There is no mention of that anywhere in the scripts for any overwhelm/grab ability.  Not that it could be checked somewhere else.  Does not really matter though, cause I break the grab within a second or two anyways.  Any knockdown, slip, paralyze or stun will break it.

I'm surprised it's not known, here is a wiki link on that subject: click here
Sometimes, even with the highest defense you can't avoid being knockdown (i.e. Scattershot = automatic hit) but with a very high physical resistance (>100 in DA:O, >150 in DA:A for instance) you're OK.
Concerning Grab, I'm sure the grab is at least shortened with a high PR against an Ogre, but against a high dragon or the Archdemon I can't say for sure because they couldn't hit my AW at all...

[beancounter501]

I know how knockdown and resistance checks works. I am just not sure it is checked during a grab/overwhelm.



But if you are that worried about physical resistance Shimmering Shield will boost your physical resistance by 75. Heroic Defense will boost it by (100+Spellpower) * 10%. Taken together you can get a score in the low 90's.



But I really don't place a lot of weight on physical resistance. Sure it is annoying to be knocked down, but rarely life threatening. Especially when you are wearing massive armor.

[Xeremius]

beancounter501 wrote...

I know how knockdown and resistance checks works. I am just not sure it is checked during a grab/overwhelm.

But if you are that worried about physical resistance Shimmering Shield will boost your physical resistance by 75. Heroic Defense will boost it by (100+Spellpower) * 10%. Taken together you can get a score in the low 90's.

But I really don't place a lot of weight on physical resistance. Sure it is annoying to be knocked down, but rarely life threatening. Especially when you are wearing massive armor.

That's your playstyle anyway, personally a massive armor, even with -25% fatigue is not enough to compensate what a lighter Wade's Superior Dragonscale armor can give you as a spellcasting AW.
Let's agree to disagree, shall we ?

[Red Frostraven]

My melee arcane warrior uses a mishmash of armor in awakening, as fatigue doesn't matter at all:
Sustained spells don't cost more due to higher fatigue, and he deals infinite amounts of damage per hit anyway, taking 0-1 damage from most enemies.

That is without putting barrier runes into the armor, which can add 21 armor to a character that's already immune to melee.

Going for high armor (as in damage reduction) is utterly broken with arcane warriors, and because of that I'm going to advise you to NOT go down that road...
It's like 100% chameleon and 100% resist all in oblivion: You're a god, and playing awakening may feel like the credits rolling over your screen, because up to and including a giant glowing golem -- nothing in awakening dealt any damage to my AW except spellcasters.

Modifié par Red Frostraven, 26 mars 2010 - 10:31 .

[beancounter501]

Sure, agree to disagree. It is a tight match between Cailen's and Wade's. Both are great armor sets. And I would agree it all comes down to your own personal perferences/playstyles.

[big richard]

Best combo for AW/BM imo is -

cailans shield & marics blade: 5 stamina / mana regen

cailans armor: 5 hp regen

lifegiver: 3 hp regen



I'd enter battle with my staff out and fatigue around 20% (rock armor + arcane shield). Cast a fireball and maybe blood wound. Switch to Melee weapons (/) and enable shimmering shield + combat magic. Too easy.