165 réponses à ce sujet

[Saberwolf116]

Alright, I know BioWare had to make the council stubborn by nature. But this has just gotten ridiculous.

First, it's blatantly obvious that the Reapers attacked the Citadel. There is no way the Geth could have created a ship that advanced. Add that to the fact that Shepard +2 witnesses heard Sovereign speak, and denying the Reaper's existence would at that point seem delusional.

Now for ME2. I decided to save the council (if only for air quotes in ME3), so I figured they might help me in some way. Maybe not send a fleet for me, but hell, at least believe me.

I was literally stunned by how utterly idiotic they were. How could you not acknowledge the Reaper's existence? We have a conduit that leads directly to Ilos (if you ask me, the whole "conduit not working" thing was a cop out), a 37-million year old derelict reaper and a working collector base, all of which could have been shown to the council at some point. If the couduit only works for Shepard, then he could have gone to Ilos with the council.

I know the Reapers are a scary threat, and it's comforting to pretend they don't exist, but they do, and at some point I was expecting them to realize it. This pic pretty much sums up the council's attitude.

EDIT: Here's a nice list of all the verifiable data, courtesy of Andorfiend:

Shepard's Vision - Verifiable by any Asari.

The Normandy 1's sensor logs from Eden Prime and Virmire.

The Eden Prime spaceport sensor logs.

The testimony of Shiala from Feros.

The testimony from Matriarch Benezia as recorded by both the teams suits and MIRA.

The testimony of Rana Thanopsis.

The full research data files from Rana Thanopsis and Saren which she gives you on Virmire.

The testimony of the Salarian Commando you rescue from Virmire.

Saren's own testimony as recorded by the suit logs from the team on Virmire and easily verified by any Asari.

Sovereign's own testimony as recorded by the suit logs from the team on Virmire and easily verified by any Asari.

The cubic kilometer
of debris from Sovereign which rained down on the Citadel. Which was at
least complete enough for the Turians to recover new weapons technology
which we use in me 2. ../../../../images/forum/emoticons/pinched.png

The easily observed and verified fact that Sovereign possesses capabilities far in advance of the Geth.

The sensor logs from the entire Citadel fleet and the Citadel itself during the battle of the Citadel.

The
sensor logs of the conversation with Vigil, as well as the data files
you retrieve from it. Again, any Asari can verify experiential data.[/list]

Modifié par Saberwolf116, 21 mars 2010 - 09:35 .

[Dethateer]

Uh, didn't the Derelict Reaper fall into the failed star after you blew up its core?

[Saberwolf116]

Dethateer wrote...

Uh, didn't the Derelict Reaper fall into the failed star after you blew up its core?

Yeah, but before you did that. You could fly into its orbit; couldn't you have sent the coordinates to the council?

[Jalem001]

Clearly you are not a student of history. People blind themselves to the obvious all the time.

Modifié par Jalem001, 21 mars 2010 - 01:29 .

[OneBadAssMother]

LOL! Aye, the council to me is a f--king joke.



Ah yes reapers!

[CrimsonStout]

'Ah yes, 'Reapers'.'

I agree they're incredibly dense, but that's basically a summation of stable governments.

It's a 'Hey, everything's cool, don't rock the boat' attitude. One which was instrumental in the start of WWII.

inb4 Godwin's Law.

[Dethateer]

Saberwolf116 wrote...

Dethateer wrote...

Uh, didn't the Derelict Reaper fall into the failed star after you blew up its core?

Yeah, but before you did that. You could fly into its orbit; couldn't you have sent the coordinates to the council?

You could have also torn apart the shuttle's flight log and given the Council/Alliance the location of at least one major Cerberus base, or simply forked over the new Normandy along with everyone on it to them.
Plot railroading, is my point.

[Saberwolf116]

Jalem001 wrote...

Clearly you are not a student of history. People blind themselves to the obvious all the time.

I am a student of history, actually. But when it's a video game that can be changed by BioWare at will, there's just no excuse.

[SimonTheFrog]

If you browse the forum you will see many good points where the plot of ME1 -> ME2 is basically silly.

You can add the council, yes.

[Kronner]

I think it reflects the real world politicians really well. It is much easier to ignore the problem than to do something about it.

Modifié par Kronner, 21 mars 2010 - 01:37 .

[Jalem001]

Saberwolf116 wrote...

Jalem001 wrote...

Clearly you are not a student of history. People blind themselves to the obvious all the time.

I am a student of history, actually. But when it's a video game that can be changed by BioWare at will, there's just no excuse.

...except its a video game trying to tell a story.  Realistic actions by government bodies help make the story.

Its exactly unbelievable for stable politicians be skeptical about something that not only destroys thousands of years worth of beliefs, but goes on to say that the galaxy is ruled by living ships that continually purge the galaxy  over the last 37 million years.

[CrimsonStout]

Kronner wrote...

I think it reflects the real world politicians really well. It is much easier to ignore the problem than to do something about it.

Exactly what I was trying to say, but with better wordy things.

[DPSSOC]

Saberwolf116 wrote...
We have a conduit that leads directly to Ilos (if you ask me, the whole "conduit not working" thing was a cop out),

 
The Conduit is a one way thing, this is explained by Vigil in ME1.  However that's irrelevant as it's not the Conduit that isn't working it's Vigil, after talking to you he apparently shut down, mission accomplished, power reserves aren't going to last to try this again.

Saberwolf116 wrote...
a 37-million year old derelict reaper and a working collector base, all of which could have been shown to the council at some point.

The Reaper maybe, the Collector base no.  The Collector base is on the other side of the Omega 4 relay and as we know, or don't maybe, getting through that is nigh impossible for unprepared ships and you don't have the means of preparing any more properly and I doubt the Council will just hop on board a Cerberus vessel.  Even if you could the Collector base is only proof of the existence of the Collectors.

As for the Reaper we all know they'd just make up some stupid explanation of how it's a fake created by Saren to fool the Geth (kinda here's Zeus and the corpse of Cronus)

[SimonTheFrog]

CrimsonStout wrote...

Kronner wrote...

I think it reflects the real world politicians really well. It is much easier to ignore the problem than to do something about it.

Exactly what I was trying to say, but with better wordy things.

Yeah yeah.... politicians are all worthless... got that.
But even a politician should understand "Reapers are interested in KILLING YOU!!!". It's not like a complaint about dirty water or something that doesn't affect them personally.
Their own sorry ass is at stake.

Ignoring this is just... well... silly.


Edit: this "we found no evidence" is a very cheaply constructed plot device. Even IF all the debris etc. wouldn't work SOMEHOW (which is not convincing at all), Shepards logs from his missions should work. It's not the stone ages. They have omnitools that scan... stuff... and record important dialogs... with sovereign for example. Saying there is no proof at all (Anderson actually says that as if he would admit it that there is none) is just as i said, made up by the writers.

Modifié par SimonTheFrog, 21 mars 2010 - 01:47 .

[Sigma Tauri]

Right, the Council, a group of recognizable people, going to Ilos (read: Terminus Systems), in the meantime Council space still remains devestated from Sovereign's attack. And the same Council who had you chase Saren so that they can get rid of you. OP, you totally made sense...

[Oisrisso]

This topic has been in no way covered before, over and over and over. All you're saying is that the council's viewpoint is annoying - which it is, but that's a story point, apparently to make Cerberus seem like a decent alternative. As has been said over and over, Shepard's appearance after two years of obstensible death is suspicious, and so he might not be privy to all the knowledge the council has.

[Riknas]

Let's look at it. The terminal on Ilos WAS pretty damn old, and was killing off countless people just to maintain itself and key personnel. Plenty of sense that it's broken. It was also stated that the Relay itself was breaking, only intended for one use.



Sovereign was supported by a fleet of geth. A fleet, ENTIRELY of geth. Every single prothean terminal we managed to find, blew up by some means. A ship which was then horribly ravaged by a massive fleet which crashed into the citadel. Geth technology is hard to monitor, since absolutely no one was able to take one intact. The quarians have the best knowledge of the geth, who are no longer allowed on the citadel. Never mind the fact their understanding is horribly outdated after three hundred years of isolation. Scavengers also took what they can, along with keepers cleaning up the mess themselves.



Normandy witnesses are out of the question, since apparently they're as crazy as Shepard. Like the dock worker who saw Saren kill Nihilus.



Add in two years of you being missing to support that and the HOPE TO GOD that there isn't actually such a thing, it makes plenty of sense for people to not believe in the Reapers. The only chance for definitive, hard evidence, has managed to blow up every chance we get. Hard evidence is the one thing that would win over the politicians, which we don't have.



All things considered, it makes sense no one believes us, as much as we'd like them to.

[El Jueta]

The council not caring about the reapers is really a great story move IMHO, their soldiers on the first game were geth, and the reapers are giant living ships. It's really justifiable that no one believes that and thinks that was one humongous geth ship. I would have liked to have a chance to talk to them and punch them in the face in ME2 though

[Big I]

This. This so much.



There is more evidence for the existence of the Reapers than there is for the Shadow Broker, but they still don't believe. Ridiculous.

[tamperous]

CrimsonStout wrote...

'Ah yes, 'Reapers'.'
I agree they're incredibly dense, but that's basically a summation of stable governments.
It's a 'Hey, everything's cool, don't rock the boat' attitude. One which was instrumental in the start of WWII.
inb4 Godwin's Law.

League of Nations 1938 

Ah yes the Fascists, A fanatical international far right movement that bombed civilians and overthrew a democratic government in Spain; burned down their own parliament in Germany and blamed other parties, arresting them all; invaded Ethiopia; united Austria and Germany in contravention of international law; rearmed their nations violating treaties; may be planning a genocide; and is currently threatening Czechoslovakia.

We have dismissed these claims. We sent Neville Chamberlain to draw up a nice piece of paper securing 'Peace in Our Time' with the Germans.

-Turian Councillor

They are stupid but not totally unrealistic.


-Edited for Spelling 'fascist'

Modifié par tamperous, 21 mars 2010 - 01:59 .

[DaVanguard]

At the end of ME2 you get evidence of reapers (data pad) show it to the council in ME3 or dlc

[CrimsonStout]

Riknas wrote...

Let's look at it. The terminal on Ilos WAS pretty damn old, and was killing off countless people just to maintain itself and key personnel. Plenty of sense that it's broken. It was also stated that the Relay itself was breaking, only intended for one use.

"I'm sorry Dave, I can't let you do that."


...


Aside from the 2001 interlude, you make valid points. If the council has no countable evidence that Reapers exist, and they're set upon NOT believing in them, they won't. Simple as.

[Jalem001]

tamperous wrote...

CrimsonStout wrote...

'Ah yes, 'Reapers'.'
I agree they're incredibly dense, but that's basically a summation of stable governments.
It's a 'Hey, everything's cool, don't rock the boat' attitude. One which was instrumental in the start of WWII.
inb4 Godwin's Law.

League of Nations 1938 

Ah yes the Facist movement, A fanatical international far right movement that bombed civilians and overthrew a democratic government in Spain; burned down their own parliament in Germany and blamed other parties, arresting them all; invaded Ethiopia; united Austria and Germany in contravention of international law; rearmed their nations violating treaties; may be planning a genocide; and is currently threatening Czechoslovakia.

We have dismissed these claims. We sent Neville Chamberlain to draw up a nice piece of paper securing 'Peace in Our Time' with the Germans.

-Turian Councillor

They are stupid but not totally unrealistic.