165 réponses à ce sujet

[kelyon]

Ok, the Council is all about politics but.
Without solid evidence they cannot admit Reapers existence but for god sake Shepard the hero of Citadel is saying that they do exist. They could have say something like this.
"We cannot prove Reapers existence but You have ours support for finding solid evidence"

In my opinion, Shepard done to much for them to be simply denied. Assuming paragon side.  

Modifié par kelyon, 21 mars 2010 - 01:53 .

[CrimsonStout]

kelyon wrote...

In my opinion, Shepard done to much for them to be simply denied. Assuming paragon side.  

The council are politicians to the core - admitting fault is up there among nuking your own office on the 'what not to do' list.

[Minaach]

Yea they are asses about not taking you for your word. But if you look at it from their point of view, it makes sense in a way.

Shep dies, comes back two years later. He could probably be brain-washed by Cerberus, a known enemy to the council. He shows up and says that entire colonies are being abducted, well outside of council reach. The attacks are only happening in the Terminus, Cerberus claims home to that and the outlying areas, I believe.

When you get down to asking questions, they did go to Ilos where they only saw dead geth, a bunch of pods but no Vigil. He dissipated after you talked to him pretty much, so there was no way even after you saved the council to go see him. It's not I am siding with the council, I am looking at it from their point of view. As for Sovereign, it looks like a HUGE Geth dropship. When I first played ME1 I thought those were Sovereign's fingers. So, mistaking it IS logical but we know the actual truth. As for speaking to him, the only way you could prove to them it was a reaper was Garrus. But since he wasn't "considered" there (only if you don't take him, doesn't change the story if you do really) they can't take just Shep's word for it.

To them, this could all be a plot to lure the council out from it's hidey-hole in the citadel and create an opportunity for Cerberus to attack them.



Feel free to flame, as this is my own opinion

[Chickenaut]

Is not that politician are idiot. I don't know how bureaucracy in mass effect world, but it could be that someone send a proposal to do some worked to govermental branch , that it need to approved. This approval are based on council government policy at the time. If that "official" council policy is to reject anything about reaper, so be it. None proposal about reaper came through. If that proposal are for "unofficial" council policy, than someone with authorization to released fund was not convinced or prepared. Bureaucracy tend resolved the problem very slow and painful. Apparently in mass effect future that kind of "mechanism" didnt had any solution or alternative.

Modifié par Chickenaut, 21 mars 2010 - 02:14 .

[Wild Still]

Don't blame the poor council. Thousands and thousands of tonnes of sovereign were stolen by looters in the minutes after the Geth attack, no one could study it, blame Bioware. For the last bastion of writing skill among video game developers, that is some weak ass effort right there. I would expect it from developers like Bungie, I think we all held Bioware to a higher standard than "LAWLZ looters tukeded teh DREADNOUGHT".

[OneBadAssMother]

To be fair, although I do believe that the council IS stupid. I wouldn't say unrealisticly stupid. This is how it is fellas. Hell in Australia, by law, we get to vote sure, but we only get to vote on "this idiot" or "that idiot". This is politics.



There are far darker themes when it comes to politics from my experience but I won't get into here. But yes, the council being stupid = believable in the ME universe.

[Syrdax]

I could understand the Council, you know, they are politics and they really don't have "solid" evidence.

What really bothers me is Kaiden/Ash. They were with you fighting the Reapers, they know what's all about, they know you very well; but somehow they became stubborn alliance husks. There's no logic for their behavior; the last excuse they make makes no sense at all. No matter how much they love the Alliance, they must know Sheppard already.

[OneBadAssMother]

That was explained through email, Ash apologised and realised she was stupid. However, knowing her history, its understandable her loyalty to the Alliance, even without the email.

[Vaenier]

Why doesnt Shep show them the: recording of Virgil. data from their suits recorders. scans of the derelict Reaper. scan of the Collector base. Collector base itself. Legion. Reaper fetus. Rachni's account of the war. collection of ships dating from before the Protheans. fact that the Citadel is a giant relay. Why not have the Asari councilor mindmeld with Shep like Liara did.



The only person you can blame is Shep for not trying.

[Jonathan Shepard]

And I blame Bioware for not making Shep ABLE to prove any of this. It'd be so easy-- the plot holes and plot discrepancies and simple plot IDIOCIES are extremely frustrating.

[OneBadAssMother]

recording of Virgil. data from their suits recorders

Interesting, if there are even suit recorders.

scans of the derelict reaper

Unfortunately it just dropped down into a gas giant...

scan of the Collector base

Blew it up

Legion

They will not trust your "trophy-bot"

Rachni

... nothing needs to be said.

Collection of ships dating from before the Proteans

Where?

Citadel is a giant relay

"We have dismissed that claim.

Asari councilor mindmeld with Shepard

... Ok, this... this is actually good. Seriously!

[Must have name]

Stupid, but not unrealistic, as others have said.

The one thing I always found a bit of a plot problem was this. In ME1, they just see you having a vision and Saren manipulating them. Yet, Liara can VIEW your vision. Why don't you just tell the Asari councillor to do it! (Edit: Heh, just seen someone else post that. Little late on my part)

Modifié par Must have name, 21 mars 2010 - 03:32 .

[Peer of the Empire]

There's not really an alternative to armed campaign against terrorism. Follow the Mongol example and all will be quickly well

[OneBadAssMother]

Its a serious plot hole though, I filtered through everything else... but... yeah, the asari councillor - why cant she mindmeld - a plot hole indeed.

Peer of the Empire wrote...
There's not really an
alternative to armed campaign against terrorism. Follow the Mongol
example and all will be quickly well

I am assuming you are yet another bloke who played too many games or watched too many "conquered the whole world" documentaries and have no idea what who we Mongols are really about. Chono niilsen nokhoi.

Modifié par OneBadAssMother, 21 mars 2010 - 03:37 .

[Syrdax]

That was explained through email, Ash apologised and realised she was stupid. However, knowing her history, its understandable her loyalty to the Alliance, even without the email

I never had that email. I've played like 10 times already, never read that.

No matter how loyal they were (Kaiden didn't seem much loyal tho) they were fighting with you, they don't need any prove. They can't be that blind, they watched/heard/lived every possible prove.

[OneBadAssMother]

Syrdax...



You WHAT? sounds like a full glitch O.O

How the heck could you miss that?

[Dethateer]

He didn't romance Ash?

[spacehamsterZH]

From my experience, politicians, managers and other people in power will ignore the blatantly obvious and try to discredit those who tell the truth to serve their short-term needs as long as they can possibly get away with it. Don't forget they also stubbornly refused to believe Saren had gone rogue until they were presented with irrefutable evidence to the contrary. I didn't find anything unrealistic about their behavior at all, it's something I've experienced plenty of times in real life. If anything, someone like Shepard wouldn't get away with mouthing off the way he does - especially if he's telling the truth.

Modifié par spacehamsterZH, 21 mars 2010 - 03:45 .

[Vaenier]

Interesting, if there are even suit recorders.

Every suit in the galaxy except for Shepard's has them...

Unfortunately it just dropped down into a gas giant...

I SAID SCAN! read my post damnit.

Blew it up

I said SCAN for that reason. EDI has the data on it.

They will not trust your "trophy-bot"

The data he has on the scism of the Geth and the promises of the Reapers. The council likes Geth data banks, they believes a simple audio recording in ME1 just because it came from a Geth...

... nothing needs to be said.

Racism...

Where?

Did you even beat the game yet? Ya notice around the collector base, how there is a ship graveyard of the millions of years of attempts to reach the Collector base...

"We have dismissed that claim.

So true, even though Shep gave them the code from virgil that opens up the control panel, and shows the giant red button labled Galactic extinction... Ok, thats an exageration, but still, they never even bothers to study it?

... Ok, this... this is actually good. Seriously!

The largest plot crater in the game. I think the Asari counciler is actualy a human imposter!

[Apollo Starflare]

They are very stupid, and thanks to their relative lack of 'screentime' in ME2 it shows all the more. However as some have said they don't come across as unrealistic, refusing to accept something like the Reapers is quite believable really and certainly fits the plot. Their reason for not entering the Terminus is also quite realistic.



It's pretty easy to understand why Shepard didn't turn in the Cerberus folks, whether renegade or paragon she seems to feel she owes them and that they are the best shot at saving the human colonists. Considering how the Council deals with her i'm not surprised she sticks with Cerberus for the time being. As for the Derelict Reaper, no doubt it was an idea overlooked by Shep and the crew, but even if they had plotted coordinates or taking pictures the Council wouldn't have found anything there and would have called the pics/readings fake.

[Computron2000]

Must have name wrote...

Stupid, but not unrealistic, as others have said.

The one thing I always found a bit of a plot problem was this. In ME1, they just see you having a vision and Saren manipulating them. Yet, Liara can VIEW your vision. Why don't you just tell the Asari councillor to do it! (Edit: Heh, just seen someone else post that. Little late on my part)

Won't work. You only see what Shepard sees. In this case, the council is sure you have been tricked. So any viewing would only see what cicumstances made Shepard think the reapers were real.

eg You friend convinces you that he did not beat up Jim with video evidence. When asked you say your friend did not beat up Jim. Any attempt to read your mind would only see the video evidence and your friend presenting the case. However it would not show that the video had been doctored

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

You have you understand, it was all part of the "edginess" and "darkness".

Sure any normal person could see that if Cerberus can somehow determine the facts of the reaper threat and accept it, the council damn well could too, but then Bioware wouldnt be able to force you into working for cerberus.

Overall I just think ME2 was nowhere near as good as ME1 at disguising the railroading elements of the plot. Its one of many areas the plot of ME2 sucks in comparison to ME1s. Another being that in ME2, there is very little of it.

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 21 mars 2010 - 03:52 .

[OneBadAssMother]

Good you replied actually, I want to get to the bottom of this now.

[quote]Vaenier wrote...

[quote]Interesting, if there are even suit recorders.[/quote]
Every suit in the galaxy except for Shepard's has them...[/quote]

Care to name an example in the plot? 

[quote]
[quote]Unfortunately it just dropped down into a gas giant...[/quote]
I SAID SCAN! read my post damnit.[/quote]

Interesting... a rebuttal could be "its Cerberus knowledge only", but then again, Shepard isnt exactly loyal to Cerberus. My Shepard anyway.

[quote]
[quote]Blew it up[/quote]
I said SCAN for that reason. EDI has the data on it.[/quote]

EDI is an AI, the council would go bonkers.

[quote]
[quote]They will not trust your "trophy-bot"[/quote]
The data he has on the scism of the Geth and the promises of the Reapers. The council likes Geth data banks, they believes a simple audio recording in ME1 just because it came from a Geth...[/quote]

Audio recording was from an inactive Geth, and the evidence also brought about Matriach Benezia's betrayal which added credibility to the case that it's not a simple lame attempt of humanity trying to prove BS. Legion is active, they would mostly likely take his word as BS.

[quote]
[quote]... nothing needs to be said.[/quote]
Racism...[/quote]

Aye, the council hates Rachni.

[quote]
[quote]Where?[/quote]
Did you even beat the game yet? Ya notice around the collector base, how there is a ship graveyard of the millions of years of attempts to reach the Collector base...[/quote]

As far as I know, only Cerberus knows about the entire operation. But then comes the argument again - Shepard aint exactly loyal to Cerberus.

[quote]
[quote]"We have dismissed that claim.[/quote]
So true, even though Shep gave them the code from virgil that opens up the control panel, and shows the giant red button labled Galactic extinction... Ok, thats an exageration, but still, they never even bothers to study it?

[/quote]

They are stupid lol!

[quote]
[quote]... Ok, this... this is actually good. Seriously![/quote]
The largest plot crater in the game. I think the Asari counciler is actualy a human imposter!
[/quote]

THIS, I can wholeheardedly agree with now that it's been brought up.

[Marstead]

The Council are indoctrinated either by:

1) Passive Indoctrination signals present on the Citadel

or:

2) Indoctrination signals being broadcast by one or several of the pieces of Sovereign.

For Option 2, you could find that a large piece of Sovereign has been recovered and kept in a Council office. This would also explain why the human Council reacts inappropriately, despite what Anderson says. Option 2 works better to explain why Anderson is not indoctrinated.