165 réponses à ce sujet

[OneBadAssMother]

To be honest, this has passed my mind before, that the council ARE semi-indoctrinated.

[bjdbwea]

It's just lazy writing to make the council part fit into the lazy written main story.

[OneBadAssMother]

It is a plausible theory actually.

[Peer of the Empire]

OneBadAssMother wrote...

Its a serious plot hole though, I filtered through everything else... but... yeah, the asari councillor - why cant she mindmeld - a plot hole indeed.

Peer of the Empire wrote...
There's not really an
alternative to armed campaign against terrorism. Follow the Mongol
example and all will be quickly well

I am assuming you are yet another bloke who played too many games or watched too many "conquered the whole world" documentaries and have no idea what who we Mongols are really about. Chono niilsen nokhoi.

lol @ emo
Look up the assassins.

[Cascadus]

Except that the Council is perfectly justified in refusing to believe the Reapers exist. There is NO evidence that the Reapers exist besides Shepard constantly crying 'THEY EXIST, I'M TELLING YOU' and sounding just a wee bit obsessed. There is no real evidence to suggest that the concept of extragalactic sentient machines that wipe out life for no good reason are even possible, and every bit of evidence Shepard DOES have has a tendency to blow up. It doesn't matter if Shepard is to hero(ine) of the Citadel, are you going to go to war because your most respected general and war hero plus two of his lieutenants demand you mobilize for war on a vision he saw and an AI he claims to of talked to?
The Council outside of Anderson are a bunch of pricks, but at the very least, they're justified in doing so. There are plenty of weak story elements and plotholes in ME2. This is not one of them.

Modifié par Cascadus, 21 mars 2010 - 04:08 .

[OneBadAssMother]

... even a dead god... can dream

[OneBadAssMother]

Perhaps we'll just have to wait for ME3

[Vaenier]

[quote][quote][quote]Interesting, if there are even suit recorders.[/quote]Every suit in the galaxy except for Shepard's has them...[/quote]

Care to name an example in the plot?[/quote]
I dont remember. Does anyone else have an example?

[quote][quote]
[quote]Blew it up[/quote]I said SCAN for that reason. EDI has the data on it.[/quote]

EDI is an AI, the council would go bonkers.[/quote]
Take the data on a data pad then. The council doesnt need to know an AI was in the computer as the ship gathered the data.
[quote][quote][quote]They will not trust your "trophy-bot"[/quote]The data he has on the scism of the Geth and the promises of the Reapers. The council likes Geth data banks, they believes a simple audio recording in ME1 just because it came from a Geth...[/quote]

Audio recording was from an inactive Geth, and the evidence also brought about Matriach Benezia's betrayal which added credibility to the case that it's not a simple lame attempt of humanity trying to prove BS. Legion is active, they would mostly likely take his word as BS.[/quote]
All they heard was a recording playing. With our technology, we can make anybody say anything. We can make anybody do anything in video. And the council just takes the recording as proof. Benezia's betrayal was from the same recording, it could be just as easily fabricated as Saren's. Why would they not believe hard data about the actions of every Geth over the past 300 years?
This whole thing with the council just seems to get more stupid as you think about it more... They believe the easily manipulated data on Saren, but none of the proof you show them about Reapers.

[quote][quote]
[quote]... nothing needs to be said.[/quote]Racism...[/quote]
Aye, the council hates Rachni.[/quote]
Its sad when government officials could become so blind by hate, that they will put the entire galaxy in danger. Same happens with Ash, Kaiden, and Liara... horrible horrible writing.

[Marstead]

Wazzanut wrote...

what about that other beacon you find at the digsite.. in mass effect 2.. couldnt we have shown the council that.. and also an email is recieved saying that a great deal of prothean technology has been recovered from ilos and awaiting delivery if you pay for it.. never gives us a chance to buy it though...

This is a joke e-mail based off popular scams.

[Vaenier]

Wazzanut wrote...

what about that other beacon you find at the digsite.. in mass effect 2.. couldnt we have shown the council that.. and also an email is recieved saying that a great deal of prothean technology has been recovered from ilos and awaiting delivery if you pay for it.. never gives us a chance to buy it though...

You do know that email was a scam... right? please tell me you were joking.

Good point on the third beacon. Another plot hole that Bioware will just ignore and hope we forget.

[Geth Knight]

Wazzanut wrote...

what about that other beacon you find at the digsite.. in mass effect 2.. couldnt we have shown the council that.. and also an email is recieved saying that a great deal of prothean technology has been recovered from ilos and awaiting delivery if you pay for it.. never gives us a chance to buy it though...

That email is probably a scam though.

About the beacon: You are thinking that it wont fry the mind of anyone who looks into it. You would have to have a strong will to survive the beacon. Thats what makes Shepard speciall. Two beacons and a Cipher are in his head. By all rights, Shepard should be a vegtable by now.

[Coogee78]

Yes they are certainly annoying. They are also politicians and presumably have to both come to a consnesis (which the Turian who represnents the majority of council space military power makes problematic) and to their own governments who even further removed from the action would be even more likely to be sceptical of your arguments. To me the Asari council member seems to be personally more open minded than the others, however except in the case of Virmire where she had the support of the Salarian (and the Turian member was kept out of the loop) she lacks the support to do much about it, particularly when you consider that Anderson is in a pretty weak position as the human representative from what we see.



If Samara and Mordin who have positions of respect amoungst their races actually gets Shepard some support within the council. The Turians and the divisions in the alliance caused by Udinas factions and Cerberus will give Shepard plenty to do, and I doubt that the Krogan will peacefully fall into line behind Wrex either. Then there is the Quarians and the Geth... They don't need to make all of the council drag their heels for Shepard to have plenty to do to get things ready for the showdown with the reapers.

[OneBadAssMother]

Take the data on a data pad then. The council doesnt need to know an AI was in the computer as the ship gathered the data.

Yeah, this is also starting to sound like "Shepard - you aren't telling the council enough sh-t"

All they heard was a recording playing. With our technology, we can make anybody say anything. We can make anybody do anything in video. And the council just takes the recording as proof. Benezia's betrayal was from the same recording, it could be just as easily fabricated as Saren's. Why would they not believe hard data about the actions of every Geth over the past 300 years?
This whole thing with the council just seems to get more stupid as you think about it more... They believe the easily manipulated data on Saren, but none of the proof you show them about Reapers.

Had that thought first time I played ME1 years ago. The only thing that made it believable was Benezia's voice however, humans were still new-comers, and fabricating Benezia's involvement would be unthinkable. Maybe there was something else in that recording that made it authentic, but nonetheless it was an inactive geth, as I mentioned b4 - an active geth they would not believe.

Its sad when government officials could become so blind by hate, that they will put the entire galaxy in danger. Same happens with Ash, Kaiden, and Liara... horrible horrible writing.

Ash and Kaiden... well their loyalty to the Alliance in my opinion is understandable. Liara's commitment to chase after the shadow broker instead of fighting the reaper threat THAT SHE KNEW ABOUT... well thats another story heh. As for Rachni aye. Racism still exists in today's governments, the worst example I've heard of is from a white-South-African woman denied transplants which would have been given freely to a black person.

@New replies

Of course, there is also the realistic possibility that the council are just too focus on current galactic affairs and have simply dismissed all this "Ah Yes Reapers" thing

Modifié par OneBadAssMother, 21 mars 2010 - 04:24 .

[Andorfiend]

OneBadAssMother wrote...

Good you replied actually, I want to get to the bottom of this now.

Vaenier wrote...

Every suit in the galaxy except for Shepard's has them...

Care to name an example in the plot? 

Mass Effect Wiki
Each set of armor, regardless of its weight, has a kinetic barrier generator and an onboard computer that can give readouts on the environment, liaise with terminals to download data, and check local wildlife against the xenobiology database.

It's stated in the game and codex that all armour has an internal computer with sensors. In ME 1 someone (I forget where, but I'm doing another playthrough, I'll try and spot it.) actually makes mention that at least you have the data from your suits. So yes, it's a major plot hole. And also a source of great annoyance for me that they took my radar screen away in ME 2. If Shepard gets a radar screeen why the hell don't I?

As far as evidence for Sovereign being a Reaper:

• Shepard's Vision - Verifiable by any Asari.
• The Normandy 1's sensor logs from Eden Prime and Virmire.
• The Eden Prime spaceport sensor logs.
• The testimony of Shiala from Feros.
• The testimony from Matriarch Benezia as recorded by both the teams suits and MIRA.
• The testimony of Rana Thanopsis.
• The full research data files from Rana Thanopsis and Saren which she gives you on Virmire.
• The testimony of the Salarian Commando you rescue from Virmire.
• Saren's own testimony as recorded by the suit logs from the team on Virmire and easily verified by any Asari.
• Sovereign's own testimony as recorded by the suit logs from the team on Virmire and easily verified by any Asari.
• The cubic kilometer of debris from Sovereign which rained down on the Citadel. Which was at least complete enough for the Turians to recover new weapons technology which we use in me 2.
• The easily observed and verified fact that Sovereign possesses capabilities far in advance of the Geth.
• The sensor logs from the entire Citadel fleet and the Citadel itself during the battle of the Citadel.
• The sensor logs of the conversation with Vigil, as well as the data files you retrieve from it. Again, any Asari can verify experiential data.

That's just from ME 1. That the council in ME 2 doesn't believe in the Reapers makes about as much sense as not believeing in space travel.

[Cascadus]

Wazzanut wrote...

what about that other beacon you find at the digsite.. in mass effect 2.. couldnt we have shown the council that.. and also an email is recieved saying that a great deal of prothean technology has been recovered from ilos and awaiting delivery if you pay for it.. never gives us a chance to buy it though...

...oh yeah, so after reading this, I came up with an idea concerning this large lot of land I recently bought from a retiring garden-keeper. It turns out it used to be a large collasped Spanish gold mine with absolutely massive amounts of unclaimed minerals and archaelogical finds. Obviously the task of excavating them would be very difficult, so all I ask from you is a mere sum of 10,000 US dollars to help carry the cost of reclaiming these lost fortunes, you'll be given a return of 20,000 dollars so we may both benefit from this event.

Modifié par Cascadus, 21 mars 2010 - 04:24 .

[Ulicus]

Cascadus wrote...

Except that the Council is perfectly justified in refusing to believe the Reapers exist. There is NO evidence that the Reapers exist besides Shepard constantly crying 'THEY EXIST, I'M TELLING YOU' and sounding just a wee bit obsessed. There is no real evidence to suggest that the concept of extragalactic sentient machines that wipe out life for no good reason are even possible, and every bit of evidence Shepard DOES have has a tendency to blow up. It doesn't matter if Shepard is to hero(ine) of the Citadel, are you going to go to war because your most respected general and war hero plus two of his lieutenants demand you mobilize for war on a vision he saw and an AI he claims to of talked to?
The Council outside of Anderson are a bunch of pricks, but at the very least, they're justified in doing so. There are plenty of weak story elements and plotholes in ME2. This is not one of them.

And you'd be absolutely right... if Shepard hadn't proved the validity of his visions when he used them to track Saren to Ilos despite there being no evidence outside of his visions that his quarry was there.  I can easily accept that Sovereign's wreckage couldn't be dated, or whatever, but I can't understand why Shepard wouldn't bring up his vision when he's proven it to be reliable already.

Now, maybe there's a way for the Council to dismiss even that -- but it should have featured in the game, because it's a bit of a large oversight as it stands.

I'd have been placated with something as simple as: "Commander, while we accept your vision as genuine, even you concede that it is often unclear. In your first report to Anderson, you suggested that you had seen Geth, after all -- a far cry from sentient starships."

Modifié par Ulicus, 21 mars 2010 - 04:27 .

[Vaenier]

Ah yes, "FTL Travel." The ability for our civilization to travel across the galaxy nearly instantaneously. We have dismissed this claim.

[OneBadAssMother]

@Andorfiend wrote...

In that case, there are only three possibilities:

- Council is stupid, they are seriously indoctrinated
- Council is stupid, they are too concerned about day-to-day sh*t (they just want to get through their  12 hr shift then go home and drink up)
- Council has serious plotholes which need to be addressed in ME3.

[Geth Knight]

Ulicus wrote...

Cascadus wrote...

Except that the Council is perfectly justified in refusing to believe the Reapers exist. There is NO evidence that the Reapers exist besides Shepard constantly crying 'THEY EXIST, I'M TELLING YOU' and sounding just a wee bit obsessed. There is no real evidence to suggest that the concept of extragalactic sentient machines that wipe out life for no good reason are even possible, and every bit of evidence Shepard DOES have has a tendency to blow up. It doesn't matter if Shepard is to hero(ine) of the Citadel, are you going to go to war because your most respected general and war hero plus two of his lieutenants demand you mobilize for war on a vision he saw and an AI he claims to of talked to?
The Council outside of Anderson are a bunch of pricks, but at the very least, they're justified in doing so. There are plenty of weak story elements and plotholes in ME2. This is not one of them.

And you'd be absolutely right... if Shepard hadn't proved the validity of his visions when he used them to track Saren to Ilos despite there being no evidence outside of his visions that his quarry was there.  I can easily accept that Sovereign's wreckage couldn't be dated, or whatever, but I can't understand why Shepard wouldn't bring up his vision when he's proven it to be reliable already.

Now, maybe there's a way for the Council to dismiss even that -- but it should have featured in the game, because it's a bit of a large oversight as it stands.

Except Shepard can't prove his visions. The beacon on Eden Prime went kablooey. And the one on Virmire went byebye as well. And even if he had another working one to give to the Council, whose to say that whoever they used it on wouldn't have their mind turned to mush? And *if* that other person's mind didn't turn to mush, they wouldn't make sense of what it meant with out the Cipher, which was part of the Thorian, which Shepard had destroyed.

Shepard could get that asari woman to give the Cipher to someone else, but since she was a follower of Benezia, who was a follower of Saren, it wouldn't be trusted at face value because it could have just been made up by Saren to make Shepard think it was the real thing.

It all goes back to the fact that Shepard can't prove anything due to any and all evidence has been destroyed, except for whats flowing in his own head. I'm sure that BW is wrapping up all these loose threads.

[SimonTheFrog]

Andorfiend wrote...

OneBadAssMother wrote...

Good you replied actually, I want to get to the bottom of this now.

Vaenier wrote...

Every suit in the galaxy except for Shepard's has them...

Care to name an example in the plot? 

Mass Effect Wiki
Each set of armor, regardless of its weight, has a kinetic barrier generator and an onboard computer that can give readouts on the environment, liaise with terminals to download data, and check local wildlife against the xenobiology database.

It's stated in the game and codex that all armour has an internal computer with sensors. In ME 1 someone (I forget where, but I'm doing another playthrough, I'll try and spot it.) actually makes mention that at least you have the data from your suits. So yes, it's a major plot hole. And also a source of great annoyance for me that they took my radar screen away in ME 2. If Shepard gets a radar screeen why the hell don't I?

As far as evidence for Sovereign being a Reaper:

• Shepard's Vision - Verifiable by any Asari.
• The Normandy 1's sensor logs from Eden Prime and Virmire.
• The Eden Prime spaceport sensor logs.
• The testimony of Shiala from Feros.
• The testimony from Matriarch Benezia as recorded by both the teams suits and MIRA.
• The testimony of Rana Thanopsis.
• The full research data files from Rana Thanopsis and Saren which she gives you on Virmire.
• The testimony of the Salarian Commando you rescue from Virmire.
• Saren's own testimony as recorded by the suit logs from the team on Virmire and easily verified by any Asari.
• Sovereign's own testimony as recorded by the suit logs from the team on Virmire and easily verified by any Asari.
• The cubic kilometer of debris from Sovereign which rained down on the Citadel. Which was at least complete enough for the Turians to recover new weapons technology which we use in me 2.
• The easily observed and verified fact that Sovereign possesses capabilities far in advance of the Geth.
• The sensor logs from the entire Citadel fleet and the Citadel itself during the battle of the Citadel.
• The sensor logs of the conversation with Vigil, as well as the data files you retrieve from it. Again, any Asari can verify experiential data.

That's just from ME 1. That the council in ME 2 doesn't believe in the Reapers makes about as much sense as not believeing in space travel.

Nice list.