165 réponses à ce sujet

[OneBadAssMother]

Wazzanut wrote...

probably just the developers trying to come up with a storyline or ending that none up us have thought of yet.. and in doing so they open up holes in the plot.. some more noticable than others.. well to people who spend this much time discussing it online lol

Heh yeah and they are probably laughing at all of us right now

[Pannamaslo]

Then it's good I killed off those idiots. From what I gathered they are either very dense or big fat liars - both problems can be solved by Destiny Ascension turning into cosmic dust. The lack of faith in the Reapers of the new council is much more probable.

[Cascadus]

Except Shepard did technically prove that his visions led him to the right spot with Ilos, which does prove the vision was genuine. Although the vision does NOTHING to validate or assert the existence of the Reapers. There are a bunch of flashing lights, garbled images and really cool music.

And calling the Council or Alliance to investigate the Reaper would of proved nothing. There is nothing remaining there that proves it is in fact a Reaper, the video logs of the team sent there are all blatantly crazy and the enemies you fight in there are all Husks, which have long since been tied to the geth.

[Vaenier]

Had that thought first time I played ME1 years ago. The only thing that made it believable was Benezia's voice however, humans were still new-comers, and fabricating Benezia's involvement would be unthinkable. Maybe there was something else in that recording that made it authentic, but nonetheless it was an inactive geth, as I mentioned b4 - an active geth they would not believe.

The inactive Geth would not have fabricated the data before going offline? And what about the people who leave Legion inactive and just collect the data from his memory banks? Have Legion play dead for the council if you are desperate.
And who says that the Alliance Inteligance Agancy wouldnt know about Benezia helping Saren and use her voice in the fabricated recording?

Ash and Kaiden... well their loyalty to the Alliance in my opinion is understandable. Liara's commitment to chase after the shadow broker instead of fighting the reaper threat THAT SHE KNEW ABOUT... well thats another story heh.

Shep and Cerberus save them from Collector abduction, along with tons of other collonists... Yet we are the evil ones? It would have made more sense for Ash/Kaiden to join the Collectors than to stay with the Alliance...

[Vaenier]

Wazzanut wrote...

the councils idea.. that shepard had been manipulated by saren was ridiculous..if so.. i would have manipulated shepard into believing the galaxy was under attack by a large invasion force of clowns.. instead of putting him on a trail that would lead to him to save the galaxy...

Lol
"The clowns, they just kept coming. Every time we killed one, two more would come out of that tiny car. It was horrible!"

[OneBadAssMother]

Vaenier wrote...

Had that thought first time I played ME1 years ago. The only thing that made it believable was Benezia's voice however, humans were still new-comers, and fabricating Benezia's involvement would be unthinkable. Maybe there was something else in that recording that made it authentic, but nonetheless it was an inactive geth, as I mentioned b4 - an active geth they would not believe.

The inactive Geth would not have fabricated the data before going offline? And what about the people who leave Legion inactive and just collect the data from his memory banks? Have Legion play dead for the council if you are desperate.
And who says that the Alliance Inteligance Agancy wouldnt know about Benezia helping Saren and use her voice in the fabricated recording?

What you say is also another possible plothole, it's not as strong as the "Why wont Asari counsillor mindmeld with Shepard" hole however. But... it is very plausible. I have made my case but it's merely out of debate. To be honest, I'm questioning this whole thing as well.

Ash and Kaiden... well their loyalty to the Alliance in my opinion is understandable. Liara's commitment to chase after the shadow broker instead of fighting the reaper threat THAT SHE KNEW ABOUT... well thats another story heh.
Shep and Cerberus save them from Collector abduction, along with tons of other collonists... Yet we are the evil ones? It would have made more sense for Ash/Kaiden to join the Collectors than to stay with the Alliance...

Well, Ash and Kaiden at Horizon - they admitted their stupidity (Well Ash at least). But Cerberus isn't exactly the happy goody organisation. My Shepard also says "I wont sacrifice my own humanity to win". Ash and Kaiden has yet to see that Cerberus ain't all bad (aka abducting human colonies). To them, joining Cerberus, is also like sacrificing their own humanity, to win a war, which in the end - is a loss. This political view however, is also something discussed in RL political groups.

[Ulicus]

Geth Knight wrote...

Except Shepard can't prove his visions. The beacon on Eden Prime went kablooey. And the one on Virmire went byebye as well. And even if he had another working one to give to the Council, whose to say that whoever they used it on wouldn't have their mind turned to mush? And *if* that other person's mind didn't turn to mush, they wouldn't make sense of what it meant with out the Cipher, which was part of the Thorian, which Shepard had destroyed.

Shepard could get that asari woman to give the Cipher to someone else, but since she was a follower of Benezia, who was a follower of Saren, it wouldn't be trusted at face value because it could have just been made up by Saren to make Shepard think it was the real thing.

It all goes back to the fact that Shepard can't prove anything due to any and all evidence has been destroyed, except for whats flowing in his own head. I'm sure that BW is wrapping up all these loose threads.

What are you talking about? He used the vision to locate Saren on Ilos. There was no other evidence that he was there. The Mu Relay linked to dozens of systems and hundreds of worlds. What, are the Council just going to say: "You didn't use your vision, you just guessed correctly!" ?

Come on.

Cascadus wrote...

Except Shepard did technically prove that his visions led him to the right spot with Ilos, which does prove the vision was genuine.

Yes.

Cascadus wrote...

Although the vision does NOTHING to validate or assert the existence of the Reapers. There are a bunch of flashing lights, garbled images and really cool music.

The way Shepard describes the vision isn't the way it's presented to us. It's funny, but I'd never even considered the possibility that we see it in its entirety, or in the exact same way Shepard does. If we do... huh, disappointing. I figured we just "got the gist".

In any case, what you're suggesting above is that the Council arbitarily decide that the parts of the vision that feature Ilos are genuine but the parts featuring synthetics butchering organics are not.  I'm not suggesting that the vision is irrefutable but it absolutely needed to be refuted during Mass Effect 2 because, at the minute, Shepard looks silly for not bringing it up.

I've got over it, for the most part, because -- whatever they "actually are" -- it is a fact of the setting that the visions are unclear and Shepard didn't make any mention of seeing sentient starships when he first had them. He referred to synthetics -- "Geth, maybe" -- slaughtering people. It was only later that he started associating those synthetics with the Reapers, and much later that Sovereign made an appearance.

I mean, despite the fact that Shepard says this: "The vision on Eden Prime. I understand it now... I saw the protheans being wiped out by the Reapers." He doesn't actually understand it at all, since, uh, he's just as surprised as everyone else when it turns out that Sovereign is the Reaper.

I'd have just liked to have seen the Council's rationale for dismissing the vision, as opposed to having to invent one myself.

Modifié par Ulicus, 21 mars 2010 - 04:54 .

[Eradyn]

Saberwolf116 wrote...

Alright, I know BioWare had to make the council stubborn by nature. But this has just gotten ridiculous.

First, it's blatantly obvious that the Reapers attacked the Citadel. There is no way the Geth could have created a ship that advanced. Add that to the fact that Shepard +2 witnesses heard Sovereign speak, and denying the Reaper's existence would at that point seem delusional.

Now for ME2. I decided to save the council (if only for air quotes in ME3), so I figured they might help me in some way. Maybe not send a fleet for me, but hell, at least believe me.

I was literally stunned by how utterly idiotic they were. How could you not acknowledge the Reaper's existence? We have a conduit that leads directly to Ilos (if you ask me, the whole "conduit not working" thing was a cop out), a 37-million year old derelict reaper and a working collector base, all of which could have been shown to the council at some point. If the couduit only works for Shepard, then he could have gone to Ilos with the council.

I know the Reapers are a scary threat, and it's comforting to pretend they don't exist, but they do, and at some point I was expecting them to realize it. This pic pretty much sums up the council's attitude.

To play devil's advocate...

What evidence? The derelict reaper is destroyed.  If you destroy the collector base, that's gone, too.  If you don't destroy the collector base, it's still inaccessible save for the Normandy (with all it's resources + IFF, btw).  And even if they could muster people with the guts to go through a relay no one else has survived (even the Normandy with all its advancements had a very close call getting through there in one piece), and assuming they somehow made it to an intact base, what will they find? That the Collectors are a bunch of sick freaks with a screwy ship and scrap metal that looks a lot like the "geth" technology utlized in Sovereign.

Speaking of Sovereign and the geth...the thing is no one had seen the geth in 300 years or so.  The council races have no idea how advanced or primitive the geth are, so it is possible they would come to the conclusion that Sovereign (which looks similar to the heretic armada -- perhaps Sovereign gave the geth some tech?) might possibly be just a "geth" construct.

To the council's credit, they did send an invesigation to Ilos...and noted that the VI "Vigil" was not functional.  Vigil was Shepard's source of information on the reapers and the protheans' knowledge of them.  With Vigil gone, that source of info/evidence is destroyed.  It is possible that this conduit was also rendered unusable with the loss of Vigil/power/time...it was a prototype of the protheans, not a reaper-made mass relay, so it seems reasonable it wouldn't work as well or last as long as a working mass relay.

We as players are frustrated because we have metagame knowledge.  In-game, they have no clue...just the crazy ramblings of Shepard (who for some strange reason loses eloquence and logic when conversing with the council).  Which is really, really frustrating.

Modifié par Eradyn, 21 mars 2010 - 04:55 .

[OneBadAssMother]

Just been thinking, this is actually a great thread. Only folks able to post here are those who played both ME1 and ME2, and are all intelligent enough to make interesting opinions.

[Darth Drago]

The Council are to busy trying to figure out where this “thermal clip” idea came from and why their luxury accommodations on the Citadel are littered with them to deal with something like a Reaper threat.

Yea, the Council are a bunch of morons. I saved them even as a renegade to get this kind of dialog? Should just hire Thane to kill them to save me the time later and a lot of lives as well.

The Geth excuse connection is just as stupid. Oh, look the Geth fleet is attacking us with a huge capital ship that just wiped out most of our fleet protecting the Citadel. So therefore that capital ship just had to be Geth made even though the fragments they did recover would obviously not support that?

Did they drop basic science in the universe? A simple carbon dating test would have revealed that Sovereign was ancient at least.

Also a security officer at the checkpoint and apparently everyone in C-Sec has no idea what a Geth looks like. Seriously? No footage for them from Noveria, Feros or Virmire including witness reports at all locations including Captain Kirrahe? The Council must not even believe that the Geth are real to not even tell their security forces what a Geth looks like.

Yet they believe that the Thorian existed without any doubt…



The Abridged Mass Effect 2, a must read. http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/105/index/1777005

Modifié par Darth Drago, 21 mars 2010 - 05:23 .

[Cascadus]

I don't disagree with you the Council not even really bringing up the whole matter of the vision and why it isn't proof of any kind of existence is rather silly and would of easily been solved by a sound clip or two because it's one of the easier 'loose ends' to tie up and so it looks like an issue of bad writing on BioWare's part.

[Cascadus]

Ulicus wrote...
The way Shepard describes the vision isn't the way it's presented to us. It's funny, but I'd never even considered the possibility that we see it in its entirety, or in the exact same way Shepard does. If we do... huh, disappointing. I figured we just "got the gist".

In any case, what you're suggesting above is that the Council arbitarily decide that the parts of the vision that feature Ilos are genuine but the parts featuring synthetics butchering organics are not.  I'm not suggesting that the vision is irrefutable but it absolutely needed to be refuted during Mass Effect 2 because, at the minute, Shepard looks silly for not bringing it up.

I've got over it, for the most part, because -- whatever they "actually are" -- it is a fact of the setting that the visions are unclear and Shepard didn't make any mention of seeing sentient starships when he first had them. He referred to synthetics -- "Geth, maybe" -- slaughtering people. It was only later that he started associating those synthetics with the Reapers, and much later that Sovereign made an appearance.

I mean, despite the fact that Shepard says this: "The vision on Eden Prime. I understand it now... I saw the protheans being wiped out by the Reapers." He doesn't actually understand it at all, since, uh, he's just as surprised as everyone else when it turns out that Sovereign is the Reaper.

I'd have just liked to have seen the Council's rationale for dismissing the vision, as opposed to having to invent one myself.

I don't disagree with you the Council not even really bringing up the whole matter of the vision and why it isn't proof of any kind of existence is rather silly and would of easily been solved by a sound clip or two because it's one of the easier 'loose ends' to tie up and so it looks like an issue of bad writing on BioWare's part.

[OneBadAssMother]

It's a game plot to make us realise the council is stupid... but yeah, from what folks have posted, especially the councillor mindmeld possibility that could have done ALOT... council is rather over-the-top stupid on current consensus.



Ah yes! Reapers!

[Vaenier]

I hope for an option to replace the Council in ME3. I would make it from Rachni, Geth, Quarian, Krogan, and Anderson. ^.=.^



Now that would actually get something done.

[Eradyn]

OneBadAssMother wrote...

It's a game plot to make us realise the council is stupid... but yeah, from what folks have posted, especially the councillor mindmeld possibility that could have done ALOT... council is rather over-the-top stupid on current consensus.

Ah yes! Reapers!

I agree.  One of the first things the council should have done in ME1 was have Shepard tested if they really felt s/he was "crazy."  A basic sanity check or, better yet, a mindmeld, should have sufficed.  Most frustrating thing for me out of that whole business.

EDIT: Actually, thinking on it...the council would probably use the prothean vision as proof of Shepard's "insanity" and confused mental state.  Nevermind...

Modifié par Eradyn, 21 mars 2010 - 05:02 .

[Eradyn]

Wazzanut wrote...

Posted by - Eradyn

"To the council's credit, they did send an invesigation to Ilos...and noted that the VI "Vigil" was not functional. Vigil was Shepard's source of information on the reapers and the protheans' knowledge of them. With Vigil gone, that source of info/evidence is destroyed. It is possible that this conduit was also rendered unusable with the loss of Vigil/power/time...it was a prototype of the protheans, not a reaper-made mass relay, so it seems reasonable it wouldn't work as well or last as long as a working mass relay.
"

What if vigil was still working.. would the council admit it.?. my guess working or not.. its valuable technology and information.. they would have taken it away to study or talk to..

Theres something very wrong with the council.. if they have been indocrinated theres no reason to say that theyve been indoctrinated by reapers.. only by someone using reaper technology.

I think the devs wrote it the way they did because a functioning vigil would have been far too much evidence in Shepard and the reapers' favor.  Working with anything beyond what was presented in-game is sheer speculation and cannot be extrapolated upon.

[OneBadAssMother]

Vaenier wrote...

I hope for an option to replace the Council in ME3. I would make it from Rachni, Geth, Quarian, Krogan, and Anderson. ^.=.^

Now that would actually get something done.

Hell... now come to think of it, have you noticed... The Asari counsellor is a bit 'neutral', the Salarian does seem to have a side of him that wants to see reason... but THAT TURIAN. THAT TURIAN!!! THAT F--KING TURIAN!!!!! O.O

Grrr

[Andorfiend]

There is also the fact that there is loads of evidence throughout the galaxy of extinct civilizations that predate the Protheans. The Leviathan of Dis, the ruins of Junthor, those moons carved to look like some unknown race, the tomb world.

[OneBadAssMother]

Andorfiend wrote...

There is also the fact that there is loads of evidence throughout the galaxy of extinct civilizations that predate the Protheans. The Leviathan of Dis, the ruins of Junthor, those moons carved to look like some unknown race, the tomb world.

Right now I am thinking the Asari is seduced by the stupid Turian. (If she was male, I would use the term p-ssy-whipped but...) And the Salarian by the Asari... or the Turian O.O!!!!

THAT... TURIAN!!! Save the council, hell I sure didnt want to spare him lol

Modifié par OneBadAssMother, 21 mars 2010 - 05:18 .

[Tooneyman]

I have one things to say on this whole debate. ME 3 the council will come around at least I hope if not I should be allowed to kill the turian and yes I'm racist towards that turian. Not all Turians because I love garrus. Him and I are homies for life. Just the one on the council.