165 réponses à ce sujet

[RenownedRyan]

This is why you kill the Council at the end of ME1. I was a Paragon character, but still allowed the council to die.

[BatarianBob]

The Council is unrealistically stupid.

They're realistic in so far as they act like real politicians.



"Ah yes 'terrorism'/'climate change'/'the economy'..."

[Steel Dancer]

Andorfiend wrote...
As far as the Reaper threat not materializing in two years... So what? This is a galactic civillization that is millenia old. Some of it's member species live for over a millenia. Heck there is probably a Krogan out there somewhere who predates the Iron Age. Thse people think in generational terms. Two years of inactivity is meaningless on the time scales they think in. 

Except the Salarians. Isn't that actually a few generations for them?

There's really is something off with the reactions of the Council. Even with the idea that they've written Sovereign off as a Geth ship, why the hell aren;t they panicing over that fact alone? Sovereign was bigger than the biggest ship they had (Destiny's Ascension)  and had terrifying weapons and capabilities. And yet...nothing.

Some kind of low level indoctrination would go at least some way to explaining it, but still... y'know..?

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Andorfiend wrote...
As far as evidence for Sovereign being a Reaper:

• 1. Shepard's Vision - Verifiable by any Asari.
  
  
• 2. The Normandy 1's sensor logs from Eden Prime and Virmire.
  
  
• 3. The Eden Prime spaceport sensor logs.
  
  
• 4. The testimony of Shiala from Feros.
  
  
• 5. The testimony from Matriarch Benezia as recorded by both the teams suits and MIRA.
  
  
• 6. The testimony of Rana Thanopsis.
  
  
• 7. The full research data files from Rana Thanopsis and Saren which she gives you on Virmire.
  
  
• 8. The testimony of the Salarian Commando you rescue from Virmire.
  
  
• 9. Saren's own testimony as recorded by the suit logs from the team on Virmire and easily verified by any Asari.
  
  
• 10. Sovereign's own testimony as recorded by the suit logs from the team on Virmire and easily verified by any Asari.
  
  
• 11. The cubic kilometer of debris from Sovereign which rained down on the Citadel. Which was at least complete enough for the Turians to recover new weapons technology which we use in me 2.
  
  
• 12. The easily observed and verified fact that Sovereign possesses capabilities far in advance of the Geth.
  
  
• 13. The sensor logs from the entire Citadel fleet and the Citadel itself during the battle of the Citadel.
  
  
• 14. The sensor logs of the conversation with Vigil, as well as the data files you retrieve from it. Again, any Asari can verify experiential data.

That's just from ME 1. That the council in ME 2 doesn't believe in the Reapers makes about as much sense as not believeing in space travel.

I just want to point out that the Council never wanted to believe the Reaper threat. Crazy as it may seem, it would destroy galactic stability and came off as the ideas of a mad man. They are not going to make it easier for you to prove your vision than they have to. They will not suggest mind-melding with an Asari. And after the Saren trial, they never give you another chance to really suggest it as you have no meetings in person.

Point# 1: Shepard's vision is fragmented until he reaches Virmire. Once you do complete the 4 main quest missions, the Council never actually allows you a conversation with them when they lock the Normandy, if I recall.

Points #2+3: This just proves Sovereign is a ship. A massive ship, but a ship nonetheless. We have no indication that he ever attempted communication with anyone besides Saren and Sovereign.

Point# 4: As she was being mind-controlled by a giant plant, I don't think her testimony would be taken too seriously.

Point# 5: Do we have any reason to believe MIRA recorded Matriarch Benezia at Peak 15?

Point #6: No evidence where Rana even ran off to after you escape Virmire, plus your team has bigger concerns.

Point #7: How does this work if I kill her? Or does she give you the files if you do as well? Do they even mention Sovereign specifically, or just the effects of mind control- which the Thorian was also capable of?

Point #8: The Salarians can testify it was a space ship. They have no idea what kind.

Point #9 + 10: These are plot holes, but isn't this nitpicking a bit? I don't think any game developers have a minor codex detail at the forefront of their thoughts when designing a story.

Point # 11: Well, it's definitely a ship!

Point # 12: Shepard before Virmire believed that Saren had a capital ship and that the Reapers were coming. He didn't put the two together to say they were the same thing. Sovereign headed a fleet of Geth, which was different from the fleet of Reapers Shepard claims are coming. We don't know what the Geth have been doing beyond the Perseus Veil- constructing a massive space ship isn't that out of line.

Point #13: Proves it's a ship.

Point #14: Anderson explains in ME2 that Vigil is destroyed- they can't learn anything else from it.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 22 mars 2010 - 02:27 .

[LOLandStuff]

The asari aren't mind readers for them to barge in and see your vision. Liara was able because she dedicated her life to such thing as the protheans and even then it wasn't clear enough.

[Andorfiend]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

This just proves Sovereign is a ship. A massive ship, but a ship nonetheless. We have no indication that he ever attempted communication with anyone besides Saren and Sovereign.

It's not merely a big ship. It's a ship that has capabilities vastly beyond anything the Citadel Species are capable of. The Destiny Ascension is a big ship. It cannot however land on a planet. Nothing bigger than a light cruiser can. It pulls turns that would 'Tear any of our ships apart.' It has weapons technology far beyond anything the Citadel species had (although not beyond their ability to disect, decipher, replicate, and sell commercially with two years?) It has a hull sturdy enough that 'ramming speed' is not a study in stupidity. It has indoctrination. It is sufficiently bad ass that it fooled a race of AIs the Council feared worshipped it as a God.

[Highdragonslayer]

I think that the citedal itself has a very small indoctrination effect that causes people to disbelieve the reaper threat, the reason why Anderson resisted it is because he trusts Shepard, were the council doesn't.

[lastpawn]

My take was that the council has no substantial evidence to believe that Sovereign was NOT an isolated case. That is, no evidence beyond trusting Shepard. Which they don't. And that part is hard to swallow...

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Andorfiend wrote...

It's not merely a big ship. It's a ship that has capabilities vastly beyond anything the Citadel Species are capable of. The Destiny Ascension is a big ship. It cannot however land on a planet. Nothing bigger than a light cruiser can. It pulls turns that would 'Tear any of our ships apart.' It has weapons technology far beyond anything the Citadel species had (although not beyond their ability to disect, decipher, replicate, and sell commercially with two years?) It has a hull sturdy enough that 'ramming speed' is not a study in stupidity. It has indoctrination. It is sufficiently bad ass that it fooled a race of AIs the Council feared worshipped it as a God.

But the Geth had been beyond the Perseus Veil all this time- the Council had no idea what they may have been doing all that time. They, like Shepard, assumed that Sovereign was merely Saren's flagship, until he reached Virmire. They did not experience this and Ilos.

When the invasion came, all they saw was a fleet of Geth lead by Saren's 'flagship'. They had no reason to believe it was anything beyond a glorified piece of technology, since Sovereign did not communicate with them. And the truth is they never wanted to believe it. If someone told you that a race of machines, millions of years old, periodically wiped out all organic life every 50k years. Would you believe them? It threatened everything they had built on the Citadel.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 22 mars 2010 - 01:00 .

[tertium organum]

The extent people wil go to defend this idiotic plot oint is hilarious. " Politicians are stupid! Don't you get it? " So every good decision they made ( like all the freaking leads they give you, saving humanity's ass from the Turians and the fact that they've managed not to start a war with the Terminus systems and have been a GALACTIC [not a planet mind you] ruling body for centuries]) is an aberraion? So, essentially, we have a story in which everything is happen-stanc - the idiots make decisions that are good not because they have any modicum of sense but it just turns out that way. Great logic guys. Keep on defending this nonsense and not consider its effect on the overall story - the problem with this issue is that the council are not written or portrayed as stupid except for this one point. They're stubborn and are politicians in the usual sense but not irremediably stupid like most are suggesting.


When Shepard brought proof, they acted accordingly not blatantly deny the obvious - they were justified in being skeptical about the Reapers until the nature of the citadel and Sovereign himself was exposed. They have no more reason to doubt - what they have reason to do is wonder how to deal with the threat and how to announce or not announce the threat. They'd act more like politicians if they berated Shepard for wanting to reveal a threat and cause a panic that they don't know how to stop. As politicians, they could very well argue that the resulting panic is too great - better to keep it under wraps and have Shepard do what he can on his own. They could even have an internal debate about the virtues of telling the truth or keeping it hidden. But we get none of this. Instead, we get blubbering idiots that have managed to be fairly skillful with A GALAXY for centuries, and made the proper decisions in ME1. But no, this is not just bad writing to shoehorn you into playing for Cerberus, it's a a realistic portrayal of politics. Right. It's total freaking nonsense and should have been beneath Bioware but it obviously isn't.

This third game might really end up being a disaster story-wise considering that the majority of fans seem willing to explain everything away and accept obvious gimmicks as great storytelling. Again, with an audience this forgiving there is really little need to make an effort with the rest of this story - the main plot or the numerous secondaries.

Modifié par tertium organum, 22 mars 2010 - 01:22 .

[DaVanguard]

in my opion the asari might be the same she is ok, salarian possibly new in ME1 hes ok, the turian well I dont know... but he just drags them all down

[BaladasDemnevanni]

tertium organum wrote...

1. " Politicians are stupid! Don't you get it? " So every good decision they made ( like all the freaking leads they give you, saving humanity's ass from the Turians and the fact that they've managed not to start a war with the Terminus systems and have been a GALACTIC [not a planet mind you] ruling body for centuries]) is an aberraion?

2. So, essentially, we have a story in which everything is happen-stanc - the idiots make decisions that are good not because they have any modicum of sense but it just turns out that way. Great logic guys. Keep on defending this nonsense and not consider its effect on the overall story -
 
3. the problem with this issue is that the council are not written or portrayed as stupid except for this one point. They're stubborn and are politicians in the usual sense but not irremediably stupid like most are suggesting.

1. I would think Udina himself is enough of an example for you to understand how politicians act. It's a game. You try explaining to billions of people that they are in danger of being destroyed by millenia year old machines from beyond dark space. It's much easier (and still possible) to accept it as 'advanced technology'. And I don't consider ignoring the Terminus Systems to necessarily be a sign of good decision.

2. Hmm, mostly nerd-rage, no discernible argument. Not worth my time.

3. You forget they operate like a bureaucracy. Very rare you will notice does the Council act on anything until it absolutely has to.

1.  they were justified in being skeptical about the Reapers until the nature of the citadel and Sovereign himself was exposed. They have no more reason to doubt - what they have reason to do is wonder how to deal with the threat and how to announce or not announce the threat.

2. They'd act more like politicians if they berated Shepard for wanting to reveal a threat and cause a panic that they don't know how to stop. As politicians, they could very well argue that the resulting panic is too great - better to keep it under wraps and have Shepard do what he can on his own. They could even have an internal debate about the virtues of telling the truth or keeping it hidden. But we get none of this. Instead, we get blubbering idiots that have managed to be fairly skillful with A GALAXY for centuries, and made the proper decisions in ME1.

3. But no, this is not just bad writing to shoehorn you into playing for Cerberus, it's a a realistic portrayal of politics. Right. It's total freaking nonsense and should have been beneath Bioware but it obviously isn't.

4. This third game might really end up being a disaster story-wise considering that the majority of fans seem willing to explain everything away and accept obvious gimmicks as great storytelling. Again, with an audience this forgiving there is really little need to make an effort with the rest of this story - the main plot or the numerous secondaries.

1. They did not talk to Sovereign- all they saw was a massive, extremely advanced machine...built by other machines which have not been seen in hundreds of years. Maybe if he led an army of Reapers, not a fleet of Geth.

2. And what- will they start mobilizing for a shadow war? People tend to notice when little things like fleets mobilizing happen. They were already strapped for resources- much easier to pretend it never happened. The one link they couldn't get rid of- Shepard- also conveniently was killed. It was too perfect.

3. If they're the only ones who believe me, you can bet your ass I'll give them a shot.

4. Yes, the first game had absolutely no discernible plot holes...oh wait.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 22 mars 2010 - 01:43 .

[tertium organum]

Shandepared wrote...

To be fair the Council does not have a very good track record.

 

Meaning they're absolute and total idiots? Really? 

[tertium organum]

Baladas, I know how you argue already - you will bend over backwards to defend ME2's ridiculous main plot. You're doing this in that thread with smudboy. It's pretty embarrassing stuff. You're incapable of analyzing the story within the world it has created and project your explanations and wild imaginings into the plot to make it make sense. Inventing explanations not found in the game itself to explain away contrivances does not make a good argument. And there really is no end to it. You can invent and retcon anything you want which is why I will not engage you in a back and forth.

That people have come up with the idea that the council is indoctrinated is all the evidence I need to see clearly how ridiculous they have been written - people have had to entertain the most ridiculous theories to explain it all away. Continue the fight though. It's amusing reading the litany of different explanations for this idiotic plot point - when you and your supporters have such wildly different theories, it can only mean, your position really is that strong, right? It makes perfect sense - that's why some people genuine believe this is indoctrination and others believe it's just "politics." Or whatever else. You guys are hilarious.

Modifié par tertium organum, 22 mars 2010 - 02:00 .

[BaladasDemnevanni]

tertium organum wrote...

Baladas, I know how you argue already - you will bend over backwards to defend ME2's ridiculous main plot. You're doing this in that thread with smudboy. It's pretty embarrassing stuff. You're incapable of analyzing the story within the world it has created and project your explanations and wild imaginings into the plot to make it make sense. Inventing explanations not found in the game itself to explain away contrivances does not make a good argument. And there really is no end to it. You can invent and retcon anything you want which is why I will not engage you in a back and forth.

That people have come up with the idea that the council is indoctrinated is all the evidence I need to see clearly how ridiculous they have been written - people have had to entertain the most ridiculous theories to explain it all away. Continue the fight though. It's amusing reading the litany of different explanations for this idiotic plot point - when you and your supporters have such wildly different theories, it can only mean, your position really is that strong, right? It makes perfect sense - that's why some people genuine believe this is indoctrination and others believe it's just "politics." Or whatever else. You guys are hilarious.

What can I say? Stupid people will remain stupid, no matter how hard I try. You are a wonderful testament to this. You have my assurances, I will continue to fight for the right that you (and idiots everywhere) may exist in this world, however worthless you are.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 22 mars 2010 - 02:11 .

[SpartanMKV]

I haven’t read every comment, but I tend to agree that the
council's obstinacy is a poorly contrived plot device to force you to work with
Cerberus. I tend to think that Bioware dropped the ball on the plot in several
places in this game, but anyway...

It is understandable that the Council might not just leap to their feet to help
you stop the Reapers after two years. However, as one previous poster noted,
given that you either A) saved their sorry tails (paragon) or gave them
their jobs (renegade), AND prevented the ostensible conquering of the Citadel
by a madman (if the Reaper threat were fake, as they believe), they should at
least endorse your attempt to discover some evidence. Yeah, you're working with
Cerberus, but they should at least give you the benefit of the doubt, for the above
reasons, and realize that it's not like you had a choice. Plus, Spectres are
above the law right? They’re given free reign to pursue their missions by
dubiously ethical means, if necessary.

Plus, the many posters on this thread have amassed a pretty
good list of evidence, circumstantial or otherwise, which makes a pretty
compelling cumulative case for the Reapers’ existence, at least compelling
enough that the degree to which the council writes you off is a little hard to
swallow.

-Every claim you made in the first game turned out to be
right.

-You just happened to find a Prothean VI on Illos, which
just happened to think it was important to stop whatever Saren’s mission might
have been, and just happened to give you a data file, which the Protheans just
happened to design to override the Keepers’ behavioral programming, which just
happened to thwart Saren’s/Sovereign’s plan? That’s an awful lot of
coincidences from a 50k years-extinct race.

-There was a crap-ton of Reaper debris, and the excuse that “oh
well…a lot of people took unauthorized salvage” is yet another poorly contrived
plot device. Some of those chunks were at least half a kilometer long. No one’s
gonna “unauthorized salvage” that! Plus, we got at least enough to make the
Thanix Cannon, obviously not from Geth weaponry.

-Given that there was a crap-ton of Reaper debris, and the
above excuse is garbage, it should be easy to tell that it wasn’t Geth
technology. True, we can’t get our hands on “functional” Geth technology, but
the very fact that some of the Reaper salvage (assuming, here) is probably
functional (like the IFF from ME2) should tip us off that “oh, maybe this crap
ain’t Geth.” Plus, it’s not like you can’t look at two damaged circuit boards
and ascertain that this one is WAY MORE advanced than that one.

- What about a record from the final confrontation with
Saren? Why would he lie and then shoot himself (assuming paragon approach)? Shepard
+ 2 crew members witnessed his spiel about the Reapers, indoctrination, and
being implanted before committing suicide.

-What about Cyber-Zombie-Saren’s body? (or did it disintegrate? I can't remember)

-Another poster mentioned the fact that we could have
examined logs from the Normandy
and the crew’s hardsuits. 

-It would have been totally plausible to screw Cerberus and
send the location of the collector ship to the Alliance or the council. Anderson would have at least enough pull to
send a small team to investigate.

-It also would have been totally plausible to screw Cerberus
and send the location of the derelict Reaper to Alliance forces or the council. Anderson again would have
at least enough pull to send a small team to investigate. Even a brief
inspection by a science team would reveal that Reaper technology is far more
advanced than any known extant race.

-It ALSO would have been totally plausible to screw Cerberus
and leave the Collector base intact, but give its location and the Reaper IFF
to the Alliance or Council. (unfortunately, you don’t get many real opportunities to screw
Cerberus in this game)

Anyway, I’m sure you could amass yet more evidence. An
argument can still be mounted that the council is acting like real-world
politicians. The allusion to pre-WWII Europe is a good one, but no one in
pre-WWII Europe denied that the Germans EXISTED. Hence, while it is believable that the Council would not immediately mobilize all its military to counter the Reaper threat, the fact that you only get one
encounter with them for the ENTIRE game, and they just completely write you off
is more than a little contrived. Sorry for the length, btw, but I feel kinda
strongly about this. I’ve come to expect better from Bioware in the plot
department.

Modifié par SpartanMKV, 22 mars 2010 - 03:01 .

[SimonTheFrog]

SpartanMKV wrote...

I tend to agree that the council's obstinacy is a poorly disguised plot device to force you to work with Cerberus. I tend to think that Bioware dropped the ball on the plot in several places in this game, but anyway...

Agreed.

I'm not sure how exactly the decisions about the plot are made. I have the feeling that the main direction and the plot are made by very different people with very different motivations and background.
Something like: 
CEO: "Cerberus sounds cool... let Shepard work for them!"...
Writer: "But please, good Sir! Cerberus is the villain! They are evil!"...
CEO: "I don't care... explain the player in ME2 why they are cool anyway!!"... 
Writer: "Uh oh..."

Or concerning topic: 
CEO: "I don't want that the Commander works for the boring Alliance and talks to the Council. He should work for the cool Illusive Man!"...
Writer: "But please, good Sir! The Council just battled the Reaper and saw what it did to their top spectre and the geth! They KNOW that it was trying to open the gate for the other Reapers! They are now helping the Commander.... why would he not want this help?"...
CEO: "I don't care... explain why they don't give a damn about Reapers and why Illusive Man is cool!!"...
Writer: "Uh oh..."

Something like that...

[tertium organum]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...


What can I say? Stupid people will remain stupid, no matter how hard I try. You are a wonderful testament to this. You have my assurances, I will continue to fight for the right that you (and idiots everywhere) may exist in this world, however worthless you are.

You don't see the irony in your words.   It's rather tragic.    Furthermore, getting this dramatic because you have hard on for ME2's particular inconsistencies is amusing. " However worthless you are."  Cute. Writing essays to explain away contrivances does prove your worth though...or maybe not. But do you my friend. Fight the good fight!

[marshalleck]

Shandepared wrote...

tertium organum wrote...

Meaning they're absolute and total idiots? Really? 

Absolutely. What they are is short-sighted, ironic considering how concerned they are with staiblity.

The whole quarian/geth situation is the best example. The Council went to the trouble of strictly regulating A.I. because of the danger it presented. Yet when millions of A.I. spontaneously rose up in the Perseus Veil, killed billions of people, an conquered a dozen worlds the Council refused to do anything about it. Three centuries later when these A.I. began invading Citadel space the Council once again refused to take action. If Shepard hadn't proved Saren was a triator they'd have never done anything about the geth.

Look at the Krogan rebellion as well. The krogan began expanding beyond the colonial worlds they'd been granted, and began to annex the worlds of Citadel client races. It wasn't until the krogan army made planetfall on an asari world that the Council moved against them, and by that time the krogans had secured the resources of several worlds to drive their war effort. At that point it was no longer an uprising, it was an all-out galactic conflagration which required an act of near-genocide to stop.

The Council is perilously negligent, and more of a threat to galactic civilization than even the Reapers.

Modifié par marshalleck, 22 mars 2010 - 03:10 .

[BaladasDemnevanni]

marshalleck wrote...

Look at the Krogan rebellion as well. The krogan began expanding beyond the colonial worlds they'd been granted, and began to annex the worlds of Citadel client races. It wasn't until the krogan army made planetfall on an asari world that the Council moved against them, and by that time the krogans had secured the resources of several worlds to drive their war effort. At that point it was no longer an uprising, it was an all-out galactic conflagration.

The Council is criminally negligent.

Aye, and suddenly it's like the Rachni wars had never happened, as if the Krogans did nothing for them. Turians became the new favorite aliens through biological warfare and they took the Krogans' potential place on the Council. Just look at how Spectres are only chosen from the Council races (besides Shepard) to see the favoritism. Politics never change.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 22 mars 2010 - 03:12 .

[marshalleck]

Well I'm not talking about the rachni war, it's hard to say that's entirely of their own doing. Rather their handling of the krogan rebellion was spectacularly poor, even though they are entirely focused on the survival of the "big three," a point which I would enthusiastically agree with you on. They let the situation fester and build to a point it was nearly out of their control.



The fact that they allowed the krogan to annex "worlds" (as in, they let it happen more than once) seems to me more likely motivated by "we don't want to get involved" (the same response they gave the quarians, and 300 years later the Alliance when dealing with the geth) than some sort of calculated strategy to achieve an advantage.