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[tertium organum]

Shandepared wrote...

tertium organum wrote...

Meaning they're absolute and total idiots? Really? 

Absolutely. What they are is short-sighted, ironic considering how concerned they are with staiblity.

The whole quarian/geth situation is the best example. The Council went to the trouble of strictly regulating A.I. because of the danger it presented. Yet when millions of A.I. spontaneously rose up in the Perseus Veil, killed billions of people, an conquered a dozen worlds the Council refused to do anything about it. Three centuries later when these A.I. began invading Citadel space the Council once again refused to take action. If Shepard hadn't proved Saren was a triator they'd have never done anything about the geth.

I'm not sure this is the way it it presented, S.  But I'll agree that this is alarming. Other than that, we're just going to cite good and bad actions in isolation and make it representative of the council as a whole - that just doesn't work. They have their warts but outright daftness is not my impression from what has been written so far.

[Marc Ang]

I think it makes complete sense that the Council will be in a state of plausible deniability. Even with all the evidence presented, see it from a politician's point of view. Confirming the existence of Reapers and presenting it to the rest of the galaxy will create mass hysteria. Imagine waking up one day and turning the TV on and seeing the news telling you that the world will end tomorrow. Well that's exactly the kind of impact the Reapers have. People will panic, not bear arms to defend themselves. The Council is only trying to keep order. Governments today withold a lot of information for the very same reason.

[Dark_Caduceus]

Indeed, I have a feeling ME3 will reveal them to be less incompetent than they appear.

[Mcjon01]

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

Indeed, I have a feeling ME3 will reveal them to be less incompetent than they appear.

Everything was all part of the Asari councilor's inscrutable plan.  Even dying.  Contigency for everything.

[Andorfiend]

Wow. That's ... a really interesting point about the Rachni wars. What the hell did they need soldiers for? If you control the space in a system destroying a planet is easy.
Although it does establish a long term trend of ****footing around big problems lacking the gumption to take effective measures.
Let's look at the early council:
It was started by the Asari. A race noted for long term thinking and an incapability for large scale warfare. (As soldiers anyway, I see no reason to think they couldn't manage an effective Navy, aside from a lack of a military tradition for a large scale military.)
The Asari bootstrapped themselves into space first out of this cycle's races and explored enough of the relay network to dicover the Citadel. They are individually powerfull and intelligent and very long lived with a disinclination for hasty action. 

The Salarians were next into space. They also bootstrapped themselves and found the Citadel independently, although it was already chock full of Asari. The Salarians are short lived and hyper, very intelligent and goal oriented. They also have a natural predeliction for espionage and covert action and a dislike for large scale warfare. 

At this point these two races decided to form the Citadel Council. They declared themselves the rulers of all they surveyed and while they encountered plenty of other races they never offered anyone else a Council position. Instead other races were 'recommended' to recognize the councils rule. Between Asari seduction and Salarian spycraft they managed to politically dominate everyone they met. While neither the Asari or Salarians are military oriented it seems certain they must have had a fleet large enough to cow any newly emerged race.

This lasted until they bumped into the Rachni. Here things become muddled up with the Reapers. There is evidence that Sovereign was indoctrinating the Rachni, at this stage he had tried to send the signal and failed and did not yet know why or about the conduit. He seems to have decided to simply wipe out the council, but if so I'm not sure how he failed. 

Anyway the Rachni were not subject to seduction or infiltration and they were adept at large scale warfare as none of the Council races were. They entered into a war of attrition with the Citadel races and were winning.

At some point in the war the Council found the Krogan and decided to use them. They 'culturally  uplifted' the Krogan (whatever that means) and sent them off to battle. The Krogan numbers gave the Council the edge in the war of attrition and they pushed the Rachni back to their own planets.

(Aside: Given that the Rachni war was mostly a space war it follows that Krogan were supplying bodies for crew for the space portion of the war. This also implies that the Council races already had a firmly established aversion to AI war machines since they were refusing to use them even in a fight for survival.)

Once the Rachni were trapped in their own atmospheres the Council certainly had the option of destroying them by asteroid bombardment, but instead still seemed to think negotiation was an option. So they sent tens of millions of Krogans to their deaths fighting the Rachni in their own tunnels. The Krogan won, and didn't feel much like negotiating. The council kinda shrugged. In spite of owing their very survival to the Krogans no place on the Council was offered to them. They did get a nice statue however.

At this point there follows a staggering failure of imagination on the part of the Council. The Asari can be forgiven I suppose. Their own biology and character is so different from the Krogans that perhaps they simply couldn't anticipate what was next. The Salarians had no such excuse. Anyway the Krogan 'rebellions' followed and the Krogans were again winning the war of attrition.

The Council survived this time by pure dumb luck. They stumbled onto the Turian Empire and managed to talk them into helping. This time they offered a Council seat to the Turians, since they apparently decided that the lesson of the Krogan rebellions was that you need to give political power to the warmongers.

Between the Asari commandos and the Salarian League of One/STG the Council has long and effective history of covert action and small unit warfare, they seem to be terribly shy of large scale conflict however, and oddly blind to the lessons of their own history. They should have immediately aided the Quarians against the Geth, given the Geth's potential to be worse than the Rachni and Krogans put together when it comes to large scale attritional warfare and their immunity to infiltration and seduction, the traditional weapons of the Council.

That they ignored the Geth threat a second time when they were taking direct action against a Council client race is mind boggleing.

So ... yeah. The Council's blindness is in keeping with their character and history. It is still however so frelling stupid that I find it hard to fathom why these idiots haven't all died off due to forgetting to breathe.

[Andorfiend]

I wouldn't read too much into the First Contact war. Remember we lost a colony to a Turian scout flotilla. Which is kind of surprising frankly, how many marine do the Turians keep in their scouts anyway? At any rate we then used our entire fleet to defeat said Scout Flotilla. If the council hadn't intervened before the Turians mobilized we'd all be speaking Turian and wearing face paint now.



I have some problems with humanities disproportionate success anyway, as well as the whole 'greater genetic diversity' thing. I have a whole diatribe on that nonsense built up.



But yes, the council is unbelievably gunshy about going to war. Their paralyzing fear of angering the Terminous systems for example is as if US foreign policy was hampered by our terror of angering Belize.

[VorcanKun]

After viewing the first 3 pages of this topic, I was surprised that nobody mentioned the overall intelligence/wisdom level of these space faring beings.

I think every being in the ME universe (except the ones that are on top) are too underdeveloped.
It kinda scares me to think that perhaps humanity believes things might end up that way.
But shouldnt these, very old species be somewhat better developed (in mind and wisdom) than us 20th century folk?
Cause I see very little deviation, aside from a few races and what not.

There is too little contrast between these things. It's like the aliens that have lived FAR longer than us, are actually maybe 5 years ahead of us. On a wisdom / cultural / societal basis.
This to me seems like the very reason the council is so darn stupid.
I mean, sure. In ME1 I got the feeling that it might be one of those. "we've been foolish even though we've lived longer." situations. Where they acknowledge their mistake and contemplate the fact that they are not omniscient etc. (something I think we as humans, in the real world. Should also do. But thats another thing all together. If you find that interesting to talk about, leave me a msg ^^ )

Aside from that, I think there is a bit of a flaw with the way we do conversations in rpg games like ME and fallout.
I've recently played ME so I'm going to use that as example, but what it is.
The responses you can choose from are response "types"
Since most of the time, the actual things said by your character can sometimes not be predicted.
I've already come across situations where I had to reload because the response shepard gave was something I wasn't expecting, even though it seemed like the right choice among the options given.

Making improvements to this system however would require work, and time.
And since we all know how important money is to our human world. (important enough to stop our world from progressing in a faster more efficient pace.)
It will most likely not happen. Or it will, but unfortunately, pretty much all games will be inherently less than they could be. Not really because we can do better, since that would not go away even if all walls were broken down and we had nothing holding us back.
But more because we allow ourselves to be held back.

Although figuring out a way to have a different response system in rpg games would cure this issue as well, I cannot help but think these issues could have been prevented, had they merely added them into the game and story.

I am of course, talking about the OBVIOUSLY important information within ME1 (I am currently playing 2) that, for some reason. Shepard doesn't want to talk about.
I can't recall specific conversations and such, but there were times when I stood before the council and was like. "Why the hell can I not tell them about the (add conversational topic or information here)!!?!"

Stuff like that really takes away from the immersion of the game.
And that is pretty bad for an rpg, but actually. would be pretty bad for any game that holds story.
Other than that, the first hour or so of ME2 have left me with a bad taste...
All the characters I build a connection with and enjoyed getting to know them. Are broken apart, now this wouldn't be bad. Since heavy/dark stories can be enjoyable and absolutely beautiful as well.
But with the council situation (including the faults already discussed in this topic and my post) as well as the prospect of most likely not being able to reconnect relations with the former characters really just make me feel depressed when playing.

Using empathy to get into the situation of a character is one thing, but this is a whole other story.
Im not just feeling depressed because of empathy towards Shepard and the other characters. But also because of the dreaded feeling that because of how the game was designed (the faulty nature of things) Me and Shepard will be forced into situations that could have gone differently (and still would have given chance for drama and heavy plot twists )

Semi-related; I really hope our world grows up soon, we give our creations way too little respect.
Most of the things mainly used for selfish gain and other selfish purposes.
If any of you think there are things wrong in the world today, please contemplate our existence and that of yourself in this world, perhaps one day. We will have the pleasure of playing games that would today be called "Games with a budget" but then, would not have any selfish reasons attached to it's creation.

As well as the having all other stupid issues resolved. Cause our world is filled pretty well with issues that are right out rediculous. Based on things WE created, and because of that. We "can't" fix it. (I think it's time we wake up and try to figure out why we actually CAN...)

EDIT:==========

Ah forgot something, what is this about the council being "realistic"? >.>;
We're talking about an alien species here people. Alien species that have lived far longer than humanity. 
If we we're to imagine what that would be like IRL (Aka: realism) 
I honestly hope it is better than what we see in our entertainment. And yes, I cannot say anything deffinate about what they would be like. However, possibilities are open to acknowledgment. That is why I think it is unlikely.
Perhaps with certain species, since I am not excluding the possibility that we also, will end up not fixing our issues while still desperately trying to move forward. But I certainly like to think we'd have long overcome those things within another 1000 years. As I recall, the life span of a SINGLE!!! Asari >.>; (gives a little perspective on how utterly retarded they are in ME ^_~ )

Modifié par VorcanKun, 03 septembre 2012 - 05:35 .

[DeathScepter]

People can unrealisticly stupid and Aliens will act like well.........Aliens regardless of length of their natural lifespans.

[VorcanKun]

DeathScepter wrote...

People can unrealisticly stupid and Aliens will act like well.........Aliens regardless of length of their natural lifespans.

That didn't make too much sense, could you elaborate on what you mean?
"Aliens will act like aliens, regardless of the length of their natural life span"

I find that a bit odd, cause we've not met any aliens yet, let alone multiple species of aliens.
So how is it that you seem to think "aliens" are the same? If there are multiple races out there, with differentiating ages.
There will undoubtedly be a difference in intellect and wisdom. Even within one species such as our own. You can see this effect. This, probably because of our fractured world we call "humanity" 
But these space faring species are not like that. Sure, just like any possibility, there will most likely (like I said before) be some species of alien that don't grow enough before leaving their home world.
Creating some of the more recognizable situations within ME that make us think of how OUR world works.

But you see, that would be fine if there are a couple of species and what not. But it's the "council" that we're talking about.
As far as I know, the citadel, council and species with that group are the bigger part of what we could call galactic societies.
I find it very odd that they would be so stupid and unwise in...everything.
Since they are older, they would have more experience and time to contemplate the world.
And yes, people can be unrealisticly stupid (I think I'm starting to understand what you were trying to say, although not quite.) but we're not talking about "people" as we know right now. To us, aliens are unknown. Sure there are people that say they visit and what not. But until we "know" it to be true. (before we worry about that, we should fix our problems though.) we cannot be so sure about the nature of "aliens" 
All we can go on is speculation. And within that, things point away from how our civilization works.

If there were to be an aliens species irl like those in ME. I feel sorry for them. Since they would be even slower than us in progressing. Which would be quite a feat. Please leave the human patriotism behind, we've got enough examples to show how stupid that is. ^^ Also, better to be humble and acknowledge your faults. Althought I wouldn't be surprised if some people didn't understand or see it that way...

Modifié par VorcanKun, 04 septembre 2012 - 01:54 .

[DeathScepter]

VorcanKun wrote...

DeathScepter wrote...

People can unrealisticly stupid and Aliens will act like well.........Aliens regardless of length of their natural lifespans.

That didn't make too much sense, could you elaborate on what you mean?
"Aliens will act like aliens, regardless of the length of their natural life span"

I find that a bit odd, cause we've not met any aliens yet, let alone multiple species of aliens.
So how is it that you seem to think "aliens" are the same? If there are multiple races out there, with differentiating ages.
There will undoubtedly be a difference in intellect and wisdom. Even within one species such as our own. You can see this effect. This, probably because of our fractured world we call "humanity" 
But these space faring species are not like that. Sure, just like any possibility, there will most likely (like I said before) be some species of alien that don't grow enough before leaving their home world.
Creating some of the more recognizable situations within ME that make us think of how OUR world works.

But you see, that would be fine if there are a couple of species and what not. But it's the "council" that we're talking about.
As far as I know, the citadel, council and species with that group are the bigger part of what we could call galactic societies.
I find it very odd that they would be so stupid and unwise in...everything.
Since they are older, they would have more experience and time to contemplate the world.
And yes, people can be unrealisticly stupid (I think I'm starting to understand what you were trying to say, although not quite.) but we're not talking about "people" as we know right now. To us, aliens are unknown. Sure there are people that say they visit and what not. But until we "know" it to be true. (before we worry about that, we should fix our problems though.) we cannot be so sure about the nature of "aliens" 
All we can go on is speculation. And within that, things point away from how our civilization works.

If there were to be an aliens species irl like those in ME. I feel sorry for them. Since they would be even slower than us in progressing. Which would be quite a feat. Please leave the human patriotism behind, we've got enough examples to show how stupid that is. ^^ Also, better to be humble and acknowledge your faults. Althought I wouldn't be surprised if some people didn't understand or see it that way...

Well Aliens are reflection of their cultures, thereforth Aliens will act like Aliens. OF course just because someone is older than you, it doesn't mean that person is wiser than you. Life lived doesn't mean knowledge or wisdom gain. Of course it is human nature to captialize the mistakes of others. With Space faring species will be more smugged compared to us due to our relative newness to space travel. Also not all space faring species will be nice or pleasant to us.

Moral and Cultural Superioty will often to lead arrogance and lack of change and growth. Within Asari culture, just because they existed longer with in this cycle, it doesn't mean they are cultural and morally superior to us. Javik did mention that Protheans did up lifted them and made them natural biotics. So all achievments they  had were based on Protheans up lifting them. Other than a minor talent for war, Protheans just watched us. No upliftment like they did for the Asari.

Overall Humanity is superioty overall compared to the Asari. Conflicts breed an adaptive nature. One of Humanities's strengths is our adaptive nature. We have earned  much. Limitations and conflicts breeds adaptive trait  into a species. Remember Mordin's speech on Collector. One of the reasons the older species don't trust Humanity is do to our creative, howbeit aggressive, natures. Over the centuries, the 3 council races are constant peace between the Rachni Wars and the First Contact War. So any thing will freak them out. 

[VorcanKun]

DeathScepter wrote...

VorcanKun wrote...

DeathScepter wrote...

People can unrealisticly stupid and Aliens will act like well.........Aliens regardless of length of their natural lifespans.

That didn't make too much sense, could you elaborate on what you mean?
"Aliens will act like aliens, regardless of the length of their natural life span"

I find that a bit odd, cause we've not met any aliens yet, let alone multiple species of aliens.
So how is it that you seem to think "aliens" are the same? If there are multiple races out there, with differentiating ages.
There will undoubtedly be a difference in intellect and wisdom. Even within one species such as our own. You can see this effect. This, probably because of our fractured world we call "humanity" 
But these space faring species are not like that. Sure, just like any possibility, there will most likely (like I said before) be some species of alien that don't grow enough before leaving their home world.
Creating some of the more recognizable situations within ME that make us think of how OUR world works.

But you see, that would be fine if there are a couple of species and what not. But it's the "council" that we're talking about.
As far as I know, the citadel, council and species with that group are the bigger part of what we could call galactic societies.
I find it very odd that they would be so stupid and unwise in...everything.
Since they are older, they would have more experience and time to contemplate the world.
And yes, people can be unrealisticly stupid (I think I'm starting to understand what you were trying to say, although not quite.) but we're not talking about "people" as we know right now. To us, aliens are unknown. Sure there are people that say they visit and what not. But until we "know" it to be true. (before we worry about that, we should fix our problems though.) we cannot be so sure about the nature of "aliens" 
All we can go on is speculation. And within that, things point away from how our civilization works.

If there were to be an aliens species irl like those in ME. I feel sorry for them. Since they would be even slower than us in progressing. Which would be quite a feat. Please leave the human patriotism behind, we've got enough examples to show how stupid that is. ^^ Also, better to be humble and acknowledge your faults. Althought I wouldn't be surprised if some people didn't understand or see it that way...

Well Aliens are reflection of their cultures, thereforth Aliens will act like Aliens. OF course just because someone is older than you, it doesn't mean that person is wiser than you. Life lived doesn't mean knowledge or wisdom gain. Of course it is human nature to captialize the mistakes of others. With Space faring species will be more smugged compared to us due to our relative newness to space travel. Also not all space faring species will be nice or pleasant to us.

Moral and Cultural Superioty will often to lead arrogance and lack of change and growth. Within Asari culture, just because they existed longer with in this cycle, it doesn't mean they are cultural and morally superior to us. Javik did mention that Protheans did up lifted them and made them natural biotics. So all achievments they  had were based on Protheans up lifting them. Other than a minor talent for war, Protheans just watched us. No upliftment like they did for the Asari.

Overall Humanity is superioty overall compared to the Asari. Conflicts breed an adaptive nature. One of Humanities's strengths is our adaptive nature. We have earned  much. Limitations and conflicts breeds adaptive trait  into a species. Remember Mordin's speech on Collector. One of the reasons the older species don't trust Humanity is do to our creative, howbeit aggressive, natures. Over the centuries, the 3 council races are constant peace between the Rachni Wars and the First Contact War. So any thing will freak them out. 

You're missing my point.

We don't actually know what an alien species' culture might be like.
to "know" something is very tricky, please reconsider your opinion and contemplate what it means to know something.

With that in mind, this topic is about how utterly stupid the council is.
The council which is, within the story. The main galactic community, established by the first to reach for the stars.
Within the story and ME universe, the game developers are gods. They create the species how they want them.
Which brings us back to "knowing"
I feel the council is portrayed as something that is way, and I mean WAYYY too close to our present day line of thinking.

Cultural differences are not effecting this thing because that lies on top the "essence" of their line of thinking. Which is like most fictional stories we come up with. Unfortunately we seem to have a lot of trouble creating a fictional world that is made from scratch. Societies within that world, all have something modeled after our human experience.

That doesn't mean however, that we can't create possibilities. 
All I'm saying is, the way the council is portrayed. And how most of these species are portrayed. Are perhaps a bit too close to our current line of thinking.
Cause perhaps I should repeat the "1000 year life span" arguement again.
I would need to acknowledge the higher possibility that a race that lives for that long. And has been flying amongst the stars far longer than humans. Would in fact, have had a lot more time to develope themselves.
And as the game world likes to show, the Asari seem to be regarded as being somewhat wise. Although this image quickly shatters for us players when we see the council's actions and such.

In the end, the game's developers are the gods. 
And if they chose the game world to be like that, that's what it is. But that doesn't mean we can't question if it could have been done differently. If they simply didn't acknowledge these possibilities, in favor of pressing on the story (I often feel the blame for that lies with ourselves) Then I think they haven't shown enough respect towards their creation. Which would be sad, since I do enjoy seeing their creation whether or not they could have done anything better.

[Massa FX]

Galactically stupid. Terminally stupid. Dumb n dumber n Dummiest.

Or just indoctrinated...