36 réponses à ce sujet

[Jawson]

O.K. I'm sure this has been done, but looking for a new perspective.  What exactly is the advantage to daggers, and before we get too far I'm on PS3 in case they ghaven't fixed dex yet.  I noticed a lot more dps with sword and dagger, and I was toying with the idea of dw two swords eventually.  Would this hinder a rogue in any way?

[Last Darkness]

Nope, daggers is most duel wielders setup because they have high dex already and can meet the equip requirments. If I remeber your doing a Duel Wield warrior so you dont have the option to pump Cun. Also on consoles the dex "bug" is not fixed.

Just get Dex to 36, get all your duel wield talents and all your other points can go into Str.

daggers work better for auto attack damage since they strike so fast with momentum up.



If your gonna duel wield heavier weapons your going to be spamming skills more.

I also suggest duel wielding Starfang(longsword version) from Wardens Keep DLC and Keening from the Gaxkang fight. I was very happy with that combo.

With elemental damage runes in both weapons I was dropping guys like flies.

[kongenial]

I'm thinking about a DW Warrior myself right now. I just played a Dex Rogue and was thinking how you would stat a warrior. If starting Awakening right away solves the problem of low progression to two large weapon usage but what to stat. As playing on PC I have the dex-fix.



Dex is good for def and att but I would stat to 52 strength for armor. Then it would make sense to enhance strength further for using two large weapons. So, if two are dagger really that better in doing damage, then this would lead to the conclusion to skip strength for the sake of dex.



What do you think would be more viable for a damagedealer?

[Last Darkness]

Duel Wield Warrior for Awakening only needs 54 Str and 50 Dex to get all the talents.

I suggest meeting those and then pumping willpower for more skill spam.

Youll have fun with some of the weapons in Awakening.



I suggest though actaly playing through Origens then transfering into Awkening though.

[Jawson]

Yeah Dual wield warriors are the most fun I've had in the game so far. I'm trying the rogue, but it's very frustrating by comparison. I'll see how some of the traps and poisons make a difference now that I'm gaining lvls.

[Count Viceroy]

I prefer dw warrior mostly because leather looks like crap and the fatigue penatly is too big if you go the for massive armor as a rogue.

[AuraofMana]

Yeah Dual wield warriors are the most fun I've had in the game so far. I'm trying the rogue, but it's very frustrating by comparison. I'll see how some of the traps and poisons make a difference now that I'm gaining lvls.

That's not how you play a DW Rogue. All you do is auto attack and backstab, then combat stealth or feign death to drop aggro. You aren't supposed to use any of your abilities. Hell, you only need 3-6 talents in DW tree. You are only going to run Momentum (or not if you already have Haste, because it doesn't stack and ends up making you attack slower) and backstab via attacking people from the back, or just attacking people who are CC'd because of Coup de Grace.

I prefer dw warrior mostly because leather looks like crap and the fatigue penatly is too big if you go the for massive armor as a rogue.

Why would you wear Massive Armor on a Rogue? You aren't expected to tank, and the best Rogue armors are all Light Armor. Huge armor = everyone hits you. Plus, suppose you do wear the armor, how does Fatigue matter? You are auto attacking anyway.



It seems neither of you are playing Rogue right.

[Snoopies]

AuraofMana wrote...

Yeah Dual wield warriors are the most fun I've had in the game so far. I'm trying the rogue, but it's very frustrating by comparison. I'll see how some of the traps and poisons make a difference now that I'm gaining lvls.

That's not how you play a DW Rogue. All you do is auto attack and backstab, then combat stealth or feign death to drop aggro. You aren't supposed to use any of your abilities. Hell, you only need 3-6 talents in DW tree. You are only going to run Momentum (or not if you already have Haste, because it doesn't stack and ends up making you attack slower) and backstab via attacking people from the back, or just attacking people who are CC'd because of Coup de Grace.

I prefer dw warrior mostly because leather looks like crap and the fatigue penatly is too big if you go the for massive armor as a rogue.

Why would you wear Massive Armor on a Rogue? You aren't expected to tank, and the best Rogue armors are all Light Armor. Huge armor = everyone hits you. Plus, suppose you do wear the armor, how does Fatigue matter? You are auto attacking anyway.

It seems neither of you are playing Rogue right.

Who made you the Rogue police, there is more than one way to play a rogue, I play with massive armour, +50 sta from one pair of boots makes up for the fatigue.  As a rogue you backstab most of the time so not much need to activate a lot of talents.  As I can take a pounding (with evasion up as well I can take more of a beating than most tanks) I never need to drop aggro if I gain it. 

Tactic is to run the warrior in forst to gain aggro, whilst you run around the back. 

Some of the massive armours have hugely better stats than lighter armours, plus a lot of the time for heroic effect I run up to the boss and fight it whilst my team fights everyone else.  Did the arch demon almost by myself this way, on nightmare.

Not saying my way is the best but it is good enough to complete game on nightmare easily enough so it is a viable route for a rogue.  Everyone who keeps telling the forum that rouges should ware light armour and wield daggers has just played too much WoW or DnD.

[Jawson]

AuraofMana wrote...

Yeah Dual wield warriors are the most fun I've had in the game so far. I'm trying the rogue, but it's very frustrating by comparison. I'll see how some of the traps and poisons make a difference now that I'm gaining lvls.

That's not how you play a DW Rogue. All you do is auto attack and backstab, then combat stealth or feign death to drop aggro. You aren't supposed to use any of your abilities. Hell, you only need 3-6 talents in DW tree. You are only going to run Momentum (or not if you already have Haste, because it doesn't stack and ends up making you attack slower) and backstab via attacking people from the back, or just attacking people who are CC'd because of Coup de Grace.

I prefer dw warrior mostly because leather looks like crap and the fatigue penatly is too big if you go the for massive armor as a rogue.

Why would you wear Massive Armor on a Rogue? You aren't expected to tank, and the best Rogue armors are all Light Armor. Huge armor = everyone hits you. Plus, suppose you do wear the armor, how does Fatigue matter? You are auto attacking anyway.

It seems neither of you are playing Rogue right.

LOL What a Tool,

Yeah I stated in my first post that I've run rogues before, in fact the first time I completed the game was as a rogue.  I AM TRYING SOMETHING DIFFERENT.  It may work, and may not, oh well, you stick to the cookie cutter builds, have fun.  Don't be a know it all.  Oh and who are the traps and poisons for, Mages??? 

Modifié par Jawson, 22 mars 2010 - 06:27 .

[AuraofMana]

As I can take a pounding (with evasion up as well I can take more of a beating than most tanks) I never need to drop aggro if I gain it.

Except Evasion triggers a long animation during which you are not attacking. It's the same reason why 100% crit archers don't get it so their DPS is higher.  This is why you don't want to get hit AT ALL.  You wear lighter armor to avoid drawing more aggro than you already are backstabbing people.

Did the arch demon almost by myself this way, on nightmare.

Cool story bro!  It's not like you can do that on every build MIRITE?

Some of the massive armours have hugely better stats than lighter armours, plus a lot of the time for heroic effect I run up to the boss and fight it whilst my team fights everyone else.

Wrong. Felon's Coat.

Everyone who keeps telling the forum that rouges should ware light armour and wield daggers has just played too much WoW or DnD.

Rogues, spell it right. This has nothing to do with WoW or DnD. Even suggesting that just shows how fail you are. This is the build forum, and I am trying to answer OP's question, which apparently he thinks I am offending him because he got an answer he didn't like.

It may work, and may not, oh well, you stick to the cookie cutter
builds, have fun.  Don't be a know it all.

Cookie cutter builds are there because they work the best.  It's not something everyone use because it's there and readily available.  It is there because all other options have been tested and has found to be inferior in comparison.  When I said those two didn't know how to use Rogues, I wasn't even targeting you.  In fact, I was trying to weed out suggestions for you so you don't waste your damn time.

Oh and who are the traps and poisons for, Mages??? 

Traps are great, except they are too situational based and takes additional time.  You already deal enough damage as it is and they are generally more useful during solo plays.  Poisons are great for extra DPS, and flasks is for more of a crowd control than damage because your backstabs deal way more damage.  They are for everyone, but obviously you don't want to use it on a Rogue if it means your DPS goes down.  If you want opinions, don't be a dick when someone tells you something you don't want to hear.

Modifié par AuraofMana, 22 mars 2010 - 07:25 .

[Jawson]

" If you want opinions, don't be a dick when someone tells you something you don't want to hear."



"It seems neither of you are playing Rogue right." <---- Yeah lots of useful tips there.



Seems you were the dick, I was defending myself.but thanks for the input, I guess.

[8DKimone]

AuraofMana wrote...

Traps are great, except they are too situational based and takes additional time.  You already deal enough damage as it is and they are generally more useful during solo plays.  Poisons are great for extra DPS, and flasks is for more of a crowd control than damage because your backstabs deal way more damage.  They are for everyone, but obviously you don't want to use it on a Rogue if it means your DPS goes down.  If you want opinions, don't be a dick when someone tells you something you don't want to hear.

I love traps for solo play and also for scouting and "setting things up" for other characters (e.g., laying grease along with claw traps anticipating a fireball).  Also, I tend to use flasks while in stealth to bring enemies scattered across a room to a central location (when you use the flask, the critters move to your location, so I use that tactic to "corral" them).  After a few flasks of different types, I simply use sweep/WW to finish the batch ...

Modifié par 8DKimone, 22 mars 2010 - 07:40 .

[AlanC9]

AuraofMana wrote...
That's not how you play a DW Rogue. All you do is auto attack and backstab, then combat stealth or feign death to drop aggro. You aren't supposed to use any of your abilities. Hell, you only need 3-6 talents in DW tree. You are only going to run Momentum (or not if you already have Haste, because it doesn't stack and ends up making you attack slower) and backstab via attacking people from the back, or just attacking people who are CC'd because of Coup de Grace.

You really don't like Punisher and Whirlwind? Could you show the math?

[LyudmilaKatzen]

I don't think you can do dual swords, can you? Swords are all "main hand" and then you can only have a dagger on the offhand.



I have been experimenting with having Zev and Leliana do dagger/sword instead of dual dagger this playthrough and they seem to be kicking butt pretty decently.



Oh and I'm sure I'm playing everything wrong so no need to tell me...I'm having fun rather than trying to play everything exactly "right."

[8DKimone]

LyudmilaKatzen wrote...

I don't think you can do dual swords, can you? Swords are all "main hand" and then you can only have a dagger on the offhand.

You can use dual full-size 1h weapons if you get dual weapon mastery talent.  I tend to use DW rogues that never have the strength to use the good 1h weapons so I'm stuck with dual daggers. 

[LyudmilaKatzen]

Ah okay. I haven't maxed out that skill tree with anyone yet so I hadn't noticed that

[Jawson]

Modifié par Jawson, 23 mars 2010 - 12:19 .

[tetracycloide]

Pretty much any build will work as long as you're not doing anything silly, like stacking magic, taking archery talents, and always using daggers from the front all at the same time. For actual DPS comparisons between different rogue builds focused on backstab in dual wield there's a thread with all of that already in it:

http://social.biowar...66/index/223777



The conclusion, if you don't want to read it yourself, was that a dagger/dagger cunning build would deal the best DPS without factoring in activated abilities or attack rolls, just auto-attack backstab damage. That said it is a game so you should try to have fun. If you want to be a rogue and spam dual wield talents maximizing auto-attack damage isn't really for you.

[Snoopies]

AuraofMana wrote...


Rogues, spell it right. This has nothing to do with WoW or DnD. Even suggesting that just shows how fail you are. This is the build forum, and I am trying to answer OP's question, which apparently he thinks I am offending him because he got an answer he didn't like.

I used the word 7 or 8 times spelling it correctly and you point out the one time I miss type, need I remind you forum not English exam! 

The reason I replied in the first place because you are going around saying that people are playing rogues incorrectly, like there is only one way to play a rogue, this is the type of behaviour you expect from some spotty DnD player.

The is one guide on the forums which everyone uses as gospel that Cun dagger/dagger rogues are the best, but as the write him/her self points out it has several flaws.
It does not take into consideration attack calculations, the use of tainted blade with a build that has almost no con or real protection, those immune to backstab.

[Jawson]

Yeah just wait till I tell him my DW warrior kills faster with dual axes than daggers, or swords, his head will explode. I do love the people who do the research on all of this, I can't even imagine how much time and effort it takes, but there are too many variables to say one way is clearly better than the others.

[mousestalker]

Daggers over swords. Daggers are faster so you do more damage than swords. Also, we all know that anything over three inches is wasted anyway. It's not the in and out motions that count, but the side to side.

[Snoopies]

mousestalker wrote...

Daggers over swords. Daggers are faster so you do more damage than swords. Also, we all know that anything over three inches is wasted anyway. It's not the in and out motions that count, but the side to side.

Someone using Dual Swords needs to do 20% more dmg to make up for the loss of speed, someone using a Sword dagger combo needs to do 10% more damage for the loss of speed.  Not a great deal to make up for when the attribute mode for Sword is 1 and dagger is 0.5. 

I know its more complex than this but cant really be bothered looking too far into it. 

Modifié par Snoopies, 23 mars 2010 - 07:52 .

[AlanC9]

Not a great deal to make up if you're pumping STR, of course. But if you're going pure dex you wouldn't be using anything but daggers anyway.

[mousestalker]

Why would you pump Strength as a rogue? Cunning and Dexterity give you much better benefits to all your roguely skills.



Just put Strength at 22 and go for Lethality ASAP.

[DMTyrisis]

Here is what everyone needs to remember...your play style will dictate strategy. Even if you are using a less than normal play type (dual longswords etc), your strategy will adapt to account for it, and eventually it will work. It may not work as well as other strategies, but it will work. If you are having fun, don't worry what all the other people think.



It is a one player game. If this was WoW, I would be telling you to stick to cookie cutter, or your not raiding with me and my guild. LOL