36 réponses à ce sujet

[Malanek]

mousestalker wrote...

Why would you pump Strength as a rogue? Cunning and Dexterity give you much better benefits to all your roguely skills.

Just put Strength at 22 and go for Lethality ASAP.

There are other approaches. The single biggest reason to pump strength over cunning is that cunning does not increase your attack score whereas strength does. Each point you put into cunning at the expense of strength or dexterity means you are 0.5% more likely to miss unless it is over 100% chance already. Of course cunning increases armour penetration and modifies a number of skills and talents. Leagionaire scout gives another reason to go with a strength build. Alternatively you can just ignore strength and cunning and pump everything into dexterity. That gives you an awesome defence, almost as much melee damage and the best stats if you also want to use a bow.

[Snoopies]

Malanek999 wrote...

mousestalker wrote...

Why would you pump Strength as a rogue? Cunning and Dexterity give you much better benefits to all your roguely skills.

Just put Strength at 22 and go for Lethality ASAP.

There are other approaches. The single biggest reason to pump strength over cunning is that cunning does not increase your attack score whereas strength does. Each point you put into cunning at the expense of strength or dexterity means you are 0.5% more likely to miss unless it is over 100% chance already. Of course cunning increases armour penetration and modifies a number of skills and talents. Leagionaire scout gives another reason to go with a strength build. Alternatively you can just ignore strength and cunning and pump everything into dexterity. That gives you an awesome defence, almost as much melee damage and the best stats if you also want to use a bow.

Additionally to this Swords give full Str dmg, were as Daggers give dex 0.5 and Str 0.5 (or Cunning).  Although you suffer in defence.

Modifié par Snoopies, 24 mars 2010 - 12:37 .

[Novadove]

try to respec your level 35 rogue and redistribute all your points.
save your game and build 3 rogues using the same equipment and same buffs.

dex rogue are good in def and range but sad in duel wield. The dps is surprising low compare to a cun rogue.

strength rogue are good in def (can wear heaviest armor) but below average in range capbility, good in hitting but with sad damage output. ( damage can be better once using 2h weapons. And this is the only reason you want to build a full flicker build. Viability is totally another matter with the cooldown length of flicker )

cun rogue has the weakest def but highest damage output, highest armor penetration.

Edited:  Currently, my highest personal record with a single hit, highest damage number recorded is 2002 with a cunning rogue on a nightmare white ogre.

Dex rogue archer comes in 2nd with 1800+ with arrow of slaying. forgot what mob i hit it on.

Strength rogue comes in last with 1200 heart seeker on childer.

with 3 playthroughs, i reloaded many times in many places just to try out the numbers.
And of course, all these statistics does not matter if rogues are not your cup of tea.

Modifié par Novadove, 24 mars 2010 - 02:48 .

[TBastian]

Str rogues may have the lowest damage, but as far as Awakenings is concerned it is far more than enough. "Sad damage output?" Siggy can hit for 200's per backstab in my runs, which kills things in 2-3 hits. She is running around 50 str, 50 dex, around 30 willpower and around 20 cunning. A cunning/dex rogue may be able to do more damage, but some people don't appreciate having to babysit glass cannons. Especially when it's not their PC (player character).
Finally Legionnaire Scout is a great spec for a strength rogue. Mage players like me will appreciate having a rogue they can nuke freely whenever they feel it necessary.

Modifié par TBastian, 24 mars 2010 - 04:02 .

[Novadove]

i completely agree with your point of view. in fact, i realise,

1) 50 str, 50 dex, 20 cun or

2) 20 str, 50 dex, 50 cun or

3) 50 str, 20 dex, 50 cun



does not change much. the range of damage dealt is so diminishing that one can barely notice the difference. most fights dont last more than 10 sec. And for 90% of the game when mobs die in 1 sec, before i even have the chance to use dirty fighting, the mob has already died.



Whether focusing in str, dex or cun, it is totally irrelevant already.



I believe many would agree that there is no longer any huge difference if you are wearing say felon or warden commander or evon. It is not like if you dont wear felon, your damage will drop from 200 to 50.



20 str can wear felon but cant wear evon; 50 str can wear both, but 50 cun can match up whatever that is not efficient in the lack of 30 str for the 20 str rogue in some other areas.



i believe all 3 of them would hit roughly the same as in 150-300 range.



so all 3 rogues are "more than enough" for awakening. in fact, you can have 40 str, 40 dex, 40 cun and still be "more than enough" for awakening.



That is also why, end of the day, part of the fun is to achieve what we want to achieve. If someone is happy that all they want is casting storms of the century from day 1 to day end, then it's fine.



The reason why i put those figures is just an amplification of what is the final outcome when chose to go down a certain path.

i'd to admit that i am also a perfectionist playstylist. So selectively, the info might be interesting for those who needs it.



I do not deny that legionnaire scout is great especially of what you say, mages nuke-free with rogues because they are immune to spells under strength of stone. That is purely a playstyle difference. For me, my mages never ever cast a single damaging spell so it's irrelevant. My personal perspective of legionnaire scout is just to counter crushing prison and tank high dragons.

[TBastian]

Not a single damage spell? Isn't that a bit extreme?

[Novadove]

solo play with 2 casters both casting haste, rock armor, telekenisis, arcane shield, flaming weapon.

put them in stationary mode while my main character go explore and do quest alone.



They only "teleport" in during cutscenes =P



anyway back to topic, i find wasting 1 more talent point to puchase dual wield 4th level is wastful.

if not using sword, not only swing/hit faster, your character can save 1 skill point, 1 talent point not to mention you kill faster =D

[Novadove]

i try doing a 140 str rogue with vigilance long sword and velvet offhand with find weakness, song of couragex2, telekensis, flaming weapon, lure an ogre into miasma, cast weakness, mark of death, dirty fighting then follow by heart seeker while in shadow form.

The highest damage i ever did after reloading 23 times is surprisingly ranging from 400- 1100 only
=(

edit: damage aside, the biggest problem for me is the 3 paragon paralyze run in the main hand trigger very slowly compare to dagger. i can feel the difference is so big, almost 50% slower of when i was using daggers. It's because of the swing speed.

This pose lots of problems for me when i fight ogre after my ghost ability is down.

usually the initial 3 dagger stabs can paralyze mobs like armored ogre. but most of the time, before paralyze effect is triggered from the sword, the ogre would ram me or grab me. Fight lasts longer in the end which i find quite inefficient.

Modifié par Novadove, 24 mars 2010 - 06:55 .

[TBastian]

Strength rogues don't need Lethality (although you'll have enough points in the end to get it anyway). That's three points.

Why make a 140 str rogue? Strength rogues are useful, but if I wanted to max out Heartseeker I'd make a dex/cunning one. You'll want high dex for the dodge, some willpower for skills so you can focus on direct +backstab damage items and cunning so your rogue can open chests.

Topic-wise, I've always preferred sword/mace/axe + dagger for my rogues, I don't like playing cunning ones unless its my PC.

I find str rogues to be useful since they're pretty self-sufficient and a lot tougher than other rogue types, and they work well with Legionnaire Scout. They can fight enemies toe-to-toe and they're great with Unending Flurry. You can leave them alone and micromanage your character, and when you come back lo and behold, they're still standing.

I use skill-weaving a lot and I need to micromanage my mage so he doesn't end up killing allies with nukes, so a tough rogue is always welcome. Either that, or an archer one like Nathaniel.

In the end str rogues can take hits from bosses and survive, and although their damage is lower than other rogues 1800 damage can kill your target as easily as 1100 anyway, so no biggie. When it comes to normal attacks the damage difference is actually much lower, only around 50 points from what I've observed. Since Siggy is doing 200+ damage per hit then that means she has to hit something 5 times to do as much damage as a dex/cunning rogue who hits something 4 times.

The funny thing is your target should already be dead in 3 attacks.

[Lowenhart]

Jawson wrote...

O.K. I'm sure this has been done, but looking for a new perspective.  What exactly is the advantage to daggers, and before we get too far I'm on PS3 in case they ghaven't fixed dex yet.  I noticed a lot more dps with sword and dagger, and I was toying with the idea of dw two swords eventually.  Would this hinder a rogue in any way?

You for sure dont wanna make the mistake i did, as i left out putting points into willpower which i later learned was a bad decision since it gives a good bit of extra stamina, also you gonna get a problem equiping 2good swords since most the special sword are mainhand which doesn allow you to put in the second weapon slot, suppose its part reason you see so many using sword and dagger aswell, as for cunning putting it up to around 14-16 is enough if only for the persuation abilities since youll recieve +2 in the fade circle tower quest, ending you cunning on around 16-18 which enough for 4points in coersion.

Cunning up past thats only useful for rogue abilities such as trap disarm/detection and opening locks/pick pocketing.

Modifié par Lowenhart, 24 mars 2010 - 08:54 .

[Snoopies]

Novadove wrote...

edit: damage aside, the biggest problem for me is the 3 paragon paralyze run in the main hand trigger very slowly compare to dagger. i can feel the difference is so big, almost 50% slower of when i was using daggers. It's because of the swing speed.

Not sure how this works out, using sword and dagger is not that much slower than two daggers, if I remember correctly the Calculation goes.

Base two weapons is 1.5s
less 0.1s sword
less 0.5s dagger,

30% reduction for momentum,

Sword/sword is 1.05s
Sword/dagger is 0.84s
Dagger/dagger is 0.7s

Modifié par Snoopies, 24 mars 2010 - 09:53 .

[AuraofMana]

[quote]"It seems neither of you are playing Rogue right." <---- Yeah lots of
useful tips there.[/quote]
I explained the how above it.  New playstyle is great, but you are merely regurgitating old playstyles that are not as efficient.  That being said, there is nothing stopping you from doing what you want.  I suggested that it wasn't the most efficient.

[quote]Oh and I'm sure I'm playing everything wrong so no need to tell me...I'm
having fun rather than trying to play everything exactly "right."[/quote]
Right, but you asked: "Would this hinder a rogue in any way?", that implies you want to min-max your character.  Anyway it doesn't matter.

[quote]You really don't like Punisher and Whirlwind? Could you show the math?[/quote]
Just try it yourself.  Backstabbing is much faster if you have Momentum on, and it deals more damage.

[quote]The reason I replied in the first place because you are going around
saying that people are playing rogues incorrectly, like there is only
one way to play a rogue, this is the type of behaviour you expect from
some spotty DnD player.[/quote]
Except the dude was asking for a min-max build, which the other suggestions were wrong in that perspective.

[quote]It does not take into consideration attack calculations, the use of
tainted blade with a build that has almost no con or real protection,
those immune to backstab.[/quote]
Just turn The Tainted Blade on yourself and see if it improves that much.  The person probably doesn't have the DLC or something.  As for no real protection, it is assumed that you have a dedicated tank who can keep aggro, and Mages that can CC.  If something goes wrong, you can combat stealth / feign death to get away.  Even on Nightmare, you can survive one hit from most things, and heals will come in or you will use your escape talents.  As for immunity to backstab, there are not a lot of those in the game, not to mention, you are not the only one attacking.  This is why DW Backstab Rogue should combine with a CC Mage.

[quote]Yeah just wait till I tell him my DW warrior kills faster with dual axes
than daggers, or swords, his head will explode.[/quote]
It kills faster because you are a DW WARRIOR who specialize in AOE.  DW Backstab Rogue specializes in damaging single targets.  This isn't a Warrior vs. Rogue thread.

[quote]Someone using Dual Swords needs to do 20% more dmg to make up for the
loss of speed, someone using a Sword dagger combo needs to do 10% more
damage for the loss of speed.  Not a great deal to make up for when the
attribute mode for Sword is 1 and dagger is 0.5. [/quote]
Someone already did tests for this.  I'll link when I find that thing again.

[quote]There are other approaches. The single biggest reason to pump strength
over cunning is that cunning does not increase your attack score whereas
strength does. Each point you put into cunning at the expense of
strength or dexterity means you are 0.5% more likely to miss unless it
is over 100% chance already.[/quote]
Song of Courage boosts attack along with other things based on your Cunning.  People who have played the Cunning build notice that you rarely miss your attack anyway was one of the reason why Cunning was deemed superior.

[quote]Additionally to this Swords give full Str dmg, were as Daggers give dex
0.5 and Str 0.5 (or Cunning).  Although you suffer in defence.[/quote]
Except daggers attack faster and are affected by Dexterity as well.  Also, the reason why Daggers were chosen are because the critical damage is higher.  Since your backstab damage is the same as your critical strike damage... you get the rest.

[quote]You for sure dont wanna make the mistake i did, as i left out putting
points into willpower which i later learned was a bad decision since it
gives a good bit of extra stamina[/quote]
You don't need any points into Willpower as any build.  As a Warrior, Death Blow will give you more Stamina than you'll ever need.  As a Rogue, even if you spam talents, your gear and Rejuvenate / Mass Rejuvenate will cover it all.  As a Mage is even less needed.

[quote]as for cunning putting it up to around 14-16 is enough if only for the
persuation abilities since youll recieve +2 in the fade circle tower
quest, ending you cunning on around 16-18 which enough for 4points in
coersion.[/quote]
Coercion at Rank 4 needs 16 Cunning, which if you are a Cunning Rogue, you don't need all the ranks.  And you get +5 in Cunning from the Circle Tower quest.

[quote]Cunning up past thats only useful for rogue abilities such as trap
disarm/detection and opening locks/pick pocketing.[/quote]
I am not even going to bother to tell you how wrong you are.