135 réponses à ce sujet

[Stoomkal]

You are not known for spurious complaining, errant_knight. I find your criticisms here very valid, and agree.



I also enjoyed aspects of this game very much... however some of the things I liked the most had been removed - such as character interaction.



When the things that suffer most in this kind of game are storytelling and character development, then something has gone seriously, seriously *wrong*.



Like I said... *sad face*

[Noir201]

Indeed, one thing that i did find to be a step up from origins, has to be blackmarsh, and the battle with the queen of the blackmarsh, that for me is the most enjoyable part of the whole game so far.

Nathaniel, quite frankly shouldn't have been in this expansion cause i think he is fantastic, but that's for another thread

[Stoomkal]

errant_knight wrote...

Stoomkal wrote...

Marso40 wrote...

While I agree with some of the criticisms (speech system, withered-royal cameo-joining being rushed beyond belief, characters not as rich as the original, etc) I really enjoyed the expansion. I've done two full playthrough and plan on doing several more to explore all the options.

...

Well, no one is complaining or whining about a lack of Alistair or Morrigan, errant_knight is the wrong "chick" for that...

We are making some very valid criticisms, I think.

Plus, your defense seems to be "I can see all the gaping flaws... but I like it".

Not much of a defense - but wait until David gets here... then it will get snarky... 

Thanks, Stoomkal. I think.

...

Lol... there is nothing like calling a woman who is making an intelligent and well reasoned argument a "chick" - though I meant it with love...

Have some cake? 

[TheBlackBaron]

For what it's worth, I did like the basic idea behind the new conversation system (because let's face it, the old system can sometimes feel like you're just having formal personal interviews with everybody), but it needs to be better implemented and possibly blended with the old.

[screwoffreg]

Its a fun little side story, but I am unsure the long term ramifications of this expansion. Bioware, we need at least ONE more expansion or tale for our this Warden to get some closure. I was bummed at never seeing Leliana or hearing about our dear Shale. After we finish with this Warden, they can just 500 years ahead if they want! Don't let this be the end!

Modifié par screwoffreg, 22 mars 2010 - 12:29 .

[errant_knight]

You're just lucky I like cake, Stoomkal. And compliments.... Heh.

Modifié par errant_knight, 22 mars 2010 - 12:30 .

[Walina]

errant_knight wrote...

Just finished my first playthrough and, boy, do I ever have a bad taste in my mouth. Over all, I enjoyed it up until the end with only a couple of qualms (ignoring the new dialogue system which didn't work for me at all, but is a separate issue, I think). There were too many 'fetch 'x' number of 'y' quests, and I found some of the side quests pointlessly bleak (Corin's proposal, the man who couldn't buy the house).

I should have paid attention to those, however, because they were a sign of where this was going. It was a big sign that said 'don't expect fun. This is going to end badly.'  They were quests where there was no win, and there was no win in Awakening as a whole. It didn't have the fun of Origins at all. That was probably the point, to take it darker. It was certainly dark. Way too dark for me. I find myself wishing I'd stopped with Origins. It ruined my happy ending. It's possible that I just made all the wrong choices, but somehow, I suspect the ending is bleak no matter what you do.

I did all that work on the Vigil just so the defenders could be overwhelmed in a week rather than a day? Really? After the battle with the Mother, I expected to return to the keep to fight alonside my men. I also thought reinforcements might arrive, given that Alistair said that he'd be back as soon as possible. Even if he'd arrived too late, I expected him to show up. That was disappointing.

Not as disappointing as the last line of the epilogue though. My PC goes back to court only to disappear in a couple of years? Shades of KOTOR. I didn't like that then, and I like it even less now. I might feel differently about it if there'd been any mention of the companions going after him/her, but nope. Nothing.

Dark fantasy treads a fine line. I though Origins did that pretty well. It allowed for people to go well off the heroic track if they wished, but also allowed those who don't find that appealing to deal with difficult choices, but still feel like they'd achieved a victory, both for themselves, and their companions. Here? Not so much.

I might try playing it again and see if I can mitigate the level of 'bad' somewhat, but I find I don't actually want to. I'm pretty depressed about the whole thing.

No, you're looking to much into it, this expansion was just for letting you "meet" the architect nothing else and nothing more and they're many bugs in the game too so it seems epilogue is quite bugged for some people.

Also, Bioware seems getting lazy without letting the player to win or loose in a side quest, because that's just how they written it and didn't bother to make possible 2 outcomes in the same quest.

SO, I will repeat what think since the ending of DAO : Bioware just gank up player and put him into a corner!

Modifié par Walina, 22 mars 2010 - 12:35 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

I actually loved the ending. And Origins didn't have the "happy ending" for me at all, despite becoming Prince Consort. Losing Morrigan is heavy.

About Vigil's Keep. It is a vcitory if it's fully upgraded. Yes, many people die defending it, but at the end it was able to break the horde. It wasn't a defeat. It was a pyyrhic victory, and of course what do you expect. There weren't that many men in the Keep. I am actually very very happy that the awakenign epilogue wasn't too happy (ironically). More realism and dark fantasy, less "happy" fantasy.

[errant_knight]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I actually loved the ending. And Origins didn't have the "happy ending" for me at all, despite becoming Prince Consort. Losing Morrigan is heavy.
About Vigil's Keep. It is a vcitory if it's fully upgraded. Yes, many people die defending it, but at the end it was able to break the horde. It wasn't a defeat. It was a pyyrhic victory, and of course what do you expect. There weren't that many men in the Keep. I am actually very very happy that the awakenign epilogue wasn't too happy (ironically). More realism and dark fantasy, less "happy" fantasy.

This is my fear, actually. That instead of trying to tread the fine line of Origins, where you could have a bleak ending, or a sort of happy one, where you could make some pretty dark, 'pragmatic' choices, or 'good' ones, they'll jump head first into darker material. It would be a lot easier to keep the fan base they ended up with happy, but they'd lose some people who loved Origins.

There were people who thought that Origins wasn't dark enough, and those who thought it was too dark. It was fairly evenly split. That tells me that they probably had it about right.

[krylo]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I actually loved the ending. And Origins didn't have the "happy ending" for me at all, despite becoming Prince Consort. Losing Morrigan is heavy.
About Vigil's Keep. It is a vcitory if it's fully upgraded. Yes, many people die defending it, but at the end it was able to break the horde. It wasn't a defeat. It was a pyyrhic victory, and of course what do you expect. There weren't that many men in the Keep. I am actually very very happy that the awakenign epilogue wasn't too happy (ironically). More realism and dark fantasy, less "happy" fantasy.

We've been agreeing a lot in the last two days.

I was actually very satisfied with the keep's pyrrhic victory.  The men who died there died as heroes to be remembered for ages to come.  What they earned by holding off that horde was most who survive ever could.  I'm certain they'll be remembered for ages to come in Ferelden and beyond as men who held the line against impossible odds.  They'll be the Thedan equivalent of 300 Spartans or the Light Brigade.  Holding against impossible numbers and odds, and breaking a darkspawn horde that kept up the siege for days.

Yes, it's not a happy ending, but it's a satisfying ending to a war story.

[WuWeiWu]

Beyond the things already mentioned here, my only other concern is that they had a character named Nathaniel Howe (Hawk - Pirates of the Carribean PC RPG) and it wouldn't even let me give him the spyglass gift

I rather enjoyed the new form of dialogue; I played the entirety of Origins with my tab key held down, so clicking on a statue and expecting a codex entry but instead laughing over something Anders or Nate said was a pleasant surprise. I just wish the idea had not only been fleshed out and implemented better, but had also made use of the old party interactions.

I loved how seemingly small decisions played out in a very big role at the end. I sent my troops to the farms and thus the people loved me and that riot dispersed rather quickly, but at one point there were THUGS harassing citizens outside the front gates of Amaranthine. I also loved the very dark implications of choice, I just finished my first play-through, and even though I fully upgraded the keep I burned Amaranthine (oops).

The storytelling felt rushed and spotty. I did not feel any urgency to complete my tasks because oh god a giant darkspawn army is coming to ravage the land, probably because my first inclination of impending doom was when the Seneschal asked me where I wanted my armies to go - the quest to initiat the 'last battle'.

I did make a mistake when I started the expac, I played through most of it as if it was the length and depth of Origins. I had just found out about this 'Architect' and was stoked to learn more about him and his plans when all of a sudden BAM! I kill his assumed nemesis and roll credits.

I also thought that both Origins /and/ Awakening were both too easy - I was on nightmare with the nightmare+ mod and, for the most part, didn't need to make use of the tactical pausing. I spent about half an hour to set up some clever tactics and then facerolled through both campaigns. There were certainly a few fights of note, but rarely did I ever have to reload because I made the wrong split-second decision.

These are all very minor complaints, to be sure. I rather enjoyed this expac and the new items/lore/places/companions et cetera that came with it, I just wished it had held up to the standards of the main campaign.


One thing I do hope for from the Dragon Age universe in the future is more dungeon crawling. Not the 'this is imperative to the survival of Ferelden, go here and do this' dungeon crawling nigh-omnipresent in Origins and Awakening, but the TES style where I can stumble upon a scrap of paper in a tavern and use it to locate some lost wonder, and then spend 30 minutes to three hours getting lost trying to figure out all of its secrets... and maybe.... getting a little lost... here and there... I swear you should always take the right branch of any fork >.<





Yeah, I never spent an hour or two running in circles inside a dungeon in Oblivion. Nope.

Modifié par WuWeiWu, 22 mars 2010 - 01:14 .

[SirOccam]

I finally finished the game, and I have to agree that it felt a lot darker than Origins (which is a good thing).

I didn't like the new conversation *as the only way of conversing*. It DID make them feel a lot more "present," but without any way of just asking what I want (instead of whatever they feel like talking about), I didn't feel like I got to know them very well. I hope they keep it in for the next expansion/sequel, but mixed with the style from Origins as well.

It also caused me some problems because I couldn't get Oghren to open up about his family, so his ending turned out pretty lame. I must have missed some random object somewhere I could have clicked on. The whole idea that I had to start from 0 with him still doesn't sit right with me anyway...we were 100 at the end of Origins.

I also couldn't do Sigrun's joining because I saved Knothole/Kal'Hirol for last, and after that, the nobles were there in the Keep and I couldn't talk to Varel without only having the option to go to war or not.

It was disappointing that there were no more "court" scenes. I really really enjoyed the one, and Varel said "hopefully the next one will be easier" or something, so I was expecting (and hoping for) more.

The biggest bummer was the epilogue. I heard that we might FINALLY get a Morrigan mention, and I kept Morrigan's ring on the whole game. Every time someone mentioned apostates or something I was looking for a chance to name-drop. But at the end...nothing. Apparently I talked to her during the final battle in Denerim and that reset me to "friend" status or something...so now I have to go back and redo the entire last battle of Origins and then redo all of Awakening, just so I can get that mention.

Making the choice between Amaranthine and the Keep was fine, but I was hoping we could get a little cutscene like we did in Denerim where we play as the companions we left behind. I felt really disconnected from anything that happened at the Keep.



Overall, I give it about a 6.5-7 out of 10. I was excited to get back to Thedas at all, but a lot of little problems (and most of all the general appearance of apathy towards continuity and relationships) soured it quite a bit. The Loghain cameo was probably my favorite, and oddly enough, he gave me the warmest reception of them all. I really hope Bioware chooses to listen to a lot of these complaints, as 90% of them could be solved almost trivially. I think basically, they just need to put story/continuity as first priority and they should be fine.

[errant_knight]

krylo wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I actually loved the ending. And Origins didn't have the "happy ending" for me at all, despite becoming Prince Consort. Losing Morrigan is heavy.
About Vigil's Keep. It is a vcitory if it's fully upgraded. Yes, many people die defending it, but at the end it was able to break the horde. It wasn't a defeat. It was a pyyrhic victory, and of course what do you expect. There weren't that many men in the Keep. I am actually very very happy that the awakenign epilogue wasn't too happy (ironically). More realism and dark fantasy, less "happy" fantasy.

We've been agreeing a lot in the last two days.

I was actually very satisfied with the keep's pyrrhic victory.  The men who died there died as heroes to be remembered for ages to come.  What they earned by holding off that horde was most who survive ever could.  I'm certain they'll be remembered for ages to come in Ferelden and beyond as men who held the line against impossible odds.  They'll be the Thedan equivalent of 300 Spartans or the Light Brigade.  Holding against impossible numbers and odds, and breaking a darkspawn horde that kept up the siege for days.

Yes, it's not a happy ending, but it's a satisfying ending to a war story.

As I said earlier, it's not so much the loss of life, as that my PC had no option to join the battle and make a difference, or even show up to give what comfort he/she could. It ended with astonishing abruptness. It was pretty clear there was going to be loss of life no matter what, but the city had virtually been destroyed before you even got there, the keep didn't fall, but there were few survivors, the countryside was ravaged. You really accomplish very little except that you kill the Mother, and possibly, the Architect. That kind of a win might count as a victory in RL, but I find it spectacularly unfulfilling in a game, although clearly some disagree.

Modifié par errant_knight, 22 mars 2010 - 01:06 .

[Efesell]

SirOccam wrote...
 Apparently I talked to her during the final battle in Denerim and that reset me to "friend" status or something...so now I have to go back and redo the entire last battle of Origins and then redo all of Awakening, just so I can get that mention.

You should really try giving her the mirror gift after she switches to see if that will reset the proper flags.

Lots of people wanting to know.

[KnightofPhoenix]

errant_knight wrote...

krylo wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I actually loved the ending. And Origins didn't have the "happy ending" for me at all, despite becoming Prince Consort. Losing Morrigan is heavy.
About Vigil's Keep. It is a vcitory if it's fully upgraded. Yes, many people die defending it, but at the end it was able to break the horde. It wasn't a defeat. It was a pyyrhic victory, and of course what do you expect. There weren't that many men in the Keep. I am actually very very happy that the awakenign epilogue wasn't too happy (ironically). More realism and dark fantasy, less "happy" fantasy.

We've been agreeing a lot in the last two days.

I was actually very satisfied with the keep's pyrrhic victory.  The men who died there died as heroes to be remembered for ages to come.  What they earned by holding off that horde was most who survive ever could.  I'm certain they'll be remembered for ages to come in Ferelden and beyond as men who held the line against impossible odds.  They'll be the Thedan equivalent of 300 Spartans or the Light Brigade.  Holding against impossible numbers and odds, and breaking a darkspawn horde that kept up the siege for days.

Yes, it's not a happy ending, but it's a satisfying ending to a war story.

As I said earlier, it's not so much the loss of life, as that my PC had no option to join the battle and make a difference, or even show up to give what comfort he/she could. It ended with astonishing abruptness. It was pretty clear there was going to be loss of life no matter what, but the city had virtually been destroyed before you even got there, the keep didn't fall, but there were few survivors, the countryside was ravaged. You really accomplish very little except that you kill the Mother, and possibly, the Architect. That kind of a win might count as a victory in RL, but I find it spectacularly unfulfilling in a game, although clearly some disagree.

Eum, so you go to an Arling where you find out that all the Wrdens that were supposed to help you were killed by intelligent darkspawn. You free the keep and rule over it. You expose or deal with traitors in your midst. You deal with revolts. You defeat a pride demon. You destroy a breeding ground of the Mother's faction. You secure the trade routes. You clear the basements of the vigil, scour for ressources and upgrade your men's equipment. Then you either save Amaranthine with no army, or lead the defense of the Vigil, or make sure the Vigil can proctect itself without you. Then you kill the Mother in her lair.
And all of that almost single handedly. With a very small army and no reinforcements from Denerim.

And that's...unfulfilling?

So the character has to conquer the fade and kill the Maker for it to be a fulfilling victory?

[Noir201]

Something i have noticed also, your warden is always too late, everything that happens, the keep, countryside, the city, always too late, while one could say "thats the point, you can't save everything" but the fact you're not given a choice to even try, does take away the players warden's control, something origins didn't do.

[TheBlackBaron]

Oh, yeah, that's another thing that didn't get as much attention as it should have - the court scenes. Those I really enjoyed, it made it feel like you genuinely were the ruler of those lands instead of just their defender, and one of them even got its own epilogue slide.



There really should have been at least one more of those, as well as actually letting you do Sigrun/Velanna's Joining if you pick them up last.



There's another thread floating about that's discussing the Morrigan thing - the general consensus is that Origins is bugged in that regard.

[krylo]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

So the character has to conquer the fade and kill the Maker for it to be a fulfilling victory?

Would it be wrong of me to hope for this to be the next xpac?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Noir201 wrote...

Something i have noticed also, your warden is always too late, everything that happens, the keep, countryside, the city, always too late, while one could say "thats the point, you can't save everything" but the fact you're not given a choice to even try, does take away the players warden's control, something origins didn't do.

You can try to save everything. You can say you want your army to protect everything. But that's not a prudent decision.

[Efesell]

Yeah, the Morrigan thing is a pretty clear case of not thinking everything through.

[WuWeiWu]

I also thought the court scenes were marvelous. I truly enjoyed meting out justice and 'ruling' over my people - better than Howe ever did imho.

[sylvanaerie]

errant_knight wrote...

Marso40 wrote...

[...]
While I agree with some of the criticisms (speech system, withered-royal cameo-joining being rushed beyond belief, characters not as rich as the original, etc) I really enjoyed the expansion. I've done two full playthrough and plan on doing several more to explore all the options.

See, that's the thing, I played Origins five times in a row without even taking a day or two off between startups, and I really can't say that I feel the need to play Awakening again. The story elements that I found interesting (Architect, Urtha, Broodmother, the nature of the darkspawn, dealings with the companions from both Awakening and Origins) were barely touched on, and a lot of the rest was a matter of accumulating goods or pretty depressing. The difference between the two is fairly vast.

Ditto.  I couldn't tear myself away from Origins and already i don't want to finish Awakenings let alone replay it.  In fact halfway through this latest attempt to play Awakenings I have made a new Origin character to play.

[TheBlackBaron]

WuWeiWu wrote...
better than Howe ever did imho.

Not that that's particularly difficult, given his track record.

[errant_knight]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

krylo wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I actually loved the ending. And Origins didn't have the "happy ending" for me at all, despite becoming Prince Consort. Losing Morrigan is heavy.
About Vigil's Keep. It is a vcitory if it's fully upgraded. Yes, many people die defending it, but at the end it was able to break the horde. It wasn't a defeat. It was a pyyrhic victory, and of course what do you expect. There weren't that many men in the Keep. I am actually very very happy that the awakenign epilogue wasn't too happy (ironically). More realism and dark fantasy, less "happy" fantasy.

We've been agreeing a lot in the last two days.

I was actually very satisfied with the keep's pyrrhic victory.  The men who died there died as heroes to be remembered for ages to come.  What they earned by holding off that horde was most who survive ever could.  I'm certain they'll be remembered for ages to come in Ferelden and beyond as men who held the line against impossible odds.  They'll be the Thedan equivalent of 300 Spartans or the Light Brigade.  Holding against impossible numbers and odds, and breaking a darkspawn horde that kept up the siege for days.

Yes, it's not a happy ending, but it's a satisfying ending to a war story.

As I said earlier, it's not so much the loss of life, as that my PC had no option to join the battle and make a difference, or even show up to give what comfort he/she could. It ended with astonishing abruptness. It was pretty clear there was going to be loss of life no matter what, but the city had virtually been destroyed before you even got there, the keep didn't fall, but there were few survivors, the countryside was ravaged. You really accomplish very little except that you kill the Mother, and possibly, the Architect. That kind of a win might count as a victory in RL, but I find it spectacularly unfulfilling in a game, although clearly some disagree.

Eum, so you go to an Arling where you find out that all the Wrdens that were supposed to help you were killed by intelligent darkspawn. You free the keep and rule over it. You expose or deal with traitors in your midst. You deal with revolts. You defeat a pride demon. You destroy a breeding ground of the Mother's faction. You secure the trade routes. You clear the basements of the vigil, scour for ressources and upgrade your men's equipment. Then you either save Amaranthine with no army, or lead the defense of the Vigil, or make sure the Vigil can proctect itself without you. Then you kill the Mother in her lair.
And all of that almost single handedly. With a very small army and no reinforcements from Denerim.

And that's...unfulfilling?

So the character has to conquer the fade and kill the Maker for it to be a fulfilling victory?

Er, so if I don't agree with you I will only be happy slaying god? I dealt with some issues, and a lot of it felt good. Until the end when virtually everything I'd worked for was destroyed. Rebuildable, yes. The stuff of legend, yes. Most of those people I tried to help, who i equipped? Dead.

But you can't really be trying to tell me what I should and should not find fulfilling, can you? That's like telling me what kind of beer I like, or what religion I should be.

Modifié par errant_knight, 22 mars 2010 - 01:20 .

[krylo]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Noir201 wrote...

Something i have noticed also, your warden is always too late, everything that happens, the keep, countryside, the city, always too late, while one could say "thats the point, you can't save everything" but the fact you're not given a choice to even try, does take away the players warden's control, something origins didn't do.

You can try to save everything. You can say you want your army to protect everything. But that's not a prudent decision.

Ehhh... I don't know.

Like I said in another thread, I found it to be the most prudent of those offered.

Defending the farm land?  Completely pointless.  You have limited troops, and you're trying to defend a huge wide open farmland with no walls, and no individual points of interest?  Impossible.  The farmlands will fall regardless.

Defending the city alone?  Pointless.  All you are defending is a limited number of civilians and a trade center.  The trade center would be important except if you aren't defending the road there is no trade.  You NEED trade at this point, as you NEED food.  With the farmlands in peril from constant darkspawn raids and no realistic way to protect them, trade is the only way to get food.

Defending the trade route alone?  Least pointless, but still sub-optimal.  You have trade, but no trade center.  The only thing it is good for now is getting food and supplies to your keep.  This leaves you with the option of either dealing with more revolts than you'll already have as your people are going to be the only ones who are eating (and the French taught us this leads to guillotines), or overly straining your soldiers and men with supplying food to other areas.

The OPTIMAL choice would be to defend the city with patrols along the roads defending trade.  Perhaps those patrols could occassionally defend farmland near the road.

However, that choice wasn't available, and as that defending any ONE area is relatively useless/pointless, the only real option is to defend all three and hope you can recruit.  And sending a few troops out into the farmlands will probably help the peasants be happier and more loyal to you.  That's good, I guess.

Modifié par krylo, 22 mars 2010 - 01:21 .