135 réponses à ce sujet

[TheBlackBaron]

Marso40 wrote...

I was a little bummed to see that our Wardens stay as commander at Vigil's keep only for a short time, though I would want to be back to the search for Morrigan anyway. I liked being called "Commander" instead of "the Grey Warden" (especially when other Wardens are around), and I think the intrigue and politics aspect of the game really needs to be revisited in a full-size game.

Agreed 100%. I'd like to see an expansion/DLC/sequel/whatever with a new character doing all these things.

That seems likely, as there are numerous signs quite apart from romances and personal choice (and hell, the current Warden at all) that the next game will be taking place in Orlais or Tevinter. Both those places would be hotbeds for political machinations and Chantry shenanigans.

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 22 mars 2010 - 04:29 .

[WuWeiWu]

I'm going off only what I've gleaned in game, I haven't read any of the books, but on the whole '...pact between Grey Wardens and Darkspawn...' deal.



Without the Darkspawn, the Grey Wardens would not exist. As the Darkspawn have a parasitic relationship with all other races, the Grey Wardens have a parasitic relationship with the Darkspawn.



The 'Warden's Keep' DLC showed us what happened the last time the Wardens attempted to interfere with the politics of the kingdom, though depending on how you complete the Origins campaign you can end up being Ferelden's ruler - at the very least, you become an Arling in Awakening, though that is more 'we need a place to stay' than 'we want to govern nations'.



And on the ensuing 'I've read the Art of War better than you did' debate, if this game had ANY inclination to include an RTS element your argument(s) would have merit... but I don't think that it will, though I'd flip **** if DA:2 had a fleshed out RTS element.



I do agree that the three choices suck ass, and the trade route is clearly the best option given meta-game. Protecting the farms help you garner support with the people, but you get that from rescuing the daughter so it is rather redundant; as has been stated, the guards at Amaranthine are worthless anyways; you do 99% of the killing regardless, and the protected trade routes gives merchants more things to sell afaik thus increasing your capacity for death. Also, the upgrades to Vigil's Keep are purely ventures of you killing more darkspawn and/or throwing money at a dwarf.

[Taellosse]

I was all set to be upset, since I went to the trouble of ensuring that everything was as prepared as possible at the keep--the walls were fully upgraded, I got everybody fabulous armor, and lots of explosives. So I figure it can hold out and I'll try to save what I can of the city. I do that, everybody cheers, and I run off to take down the Mother--only to see that the map claims Vigil's Keep is sacked, and my Codex entries for everyone I left behind says they died in the siege.
But then I went ahead and finished the game anyway, and in the epilogue text it tells me the keep held out, the siege failed, everyone survived (well, except Valenna, who disappears mysteriously--what is it with the female mage NPCs in this game and vanishing after the climactic battle, anyway?) , the Silver Order is founded from the defenders, and so on. So I guess the codex entries and map were glitches. I noticed a lot more glitches in this than I had in the core game, incidentally (a couple of cinematics played a second time after the first one finished, for example, including the final one where I killed the Mother, following the epilogue text but preceding the credits, and my Codex got seriously wonky a few times in the beginning). It could do with a patch or two.
I never got personal quests for Sigrun or Valenna, either, though I did get both their approvals up into the 80-90 range with gifts and conversations and such. I had everyone at least that high before the end, with Nathaniel and Anders both maxed out. I took Nathaniel, Sigrun, and Justice with me, leaving Valenna, Anders, and Oghren at the Keep.

Modifié par Taellosse, 22 mars 2010 - 05:14 .

[WuWeiWu]

errant_knight wrote...

WuWeiWu wrote...

Aside: I find the assumed poetic inference in the title of this thread quite pleasing.

I'm glad you find it so.

Calling it a languistic analogy would probably be more correct and easier to read than an assumed poetic inference, though... hrm...

[errant_knight]

WuWeiWu wrote...

I'm going off only what I've gleaned in game, I haven't read any of the books, but on the whole '...pact between Grey Wardens and Darkspawn...' deal.

Without the Darkspawn, the Grey Wardens would not exist. As the Darkspawn have a parasitic relationship with all other races, the Grey Wardens have a parasitic relationship with the Darkspawn.

The 'Warden's Keep' DLC showed us what happened the last time the Wardens attempted to interfere with the politics of the kingdom, though depending on how you complete the Origins campaign you can end up being Ferelden's ruler - at the very least, you become an Arling in Awakening, though that is more 'we need a place to stay' than 'we want to govern nations'.

And on the ensuing 'I've read the Art of War better than you did' debate, if this game had ANY inclination to include an RTS element your argument(s) would have merit... but I don't think that it will, though I'd flip **** if DA:2 had a fleshed out RTS element.

I do agree that the three choices suck ass, and the trade route is clearly the best option given meta-game. Protecting the farms help you garner support with the people, but you get that from rescuing the daughter so it is rather redundant; as has been stated, the guards at Amaranthine are worthless anyways; you do 99% of the killing regardless, and the protected trade routes gives merchants more things to sell afaik thus increasing your capacity for death. Also, the upgrades to Vigil's Keep are purely ventures of you killing more darkspawn and/or throwing money at a dwarf.

The trade route option is the best one in game, too, I think. The population is too spread out to defend in the countryside and the farmers can't produce food in all the chaos. They need to keep the supply lines open to allow for the possibility of reinforcements and to import food to the city and the keep. What I couldn't figure out is why we didn't have the option of moving the most vulnerable segments of the population to the keep. It seemed like the obvious thing to do. The keep is actually large enough that they probably could have moved most of the population there. It felt like a false choice to me.

[elearon1]

To each their own, I was actually rather disappointed with this aspect of Origins, as it didn't seem nearly as dark as they were touting. Instead you could get happy endings all over the place and never had to make a painful decision if you played your cards right. There was nothing dark about it.



Awakenings gave you stories with no happy endings, hard choices where people suffered, missions where you could not save everyone and in which you saw the cruelties of humans and the depths they'll fall to in obsession or despair. I get sick of heroic fantasy - this is the sort of thing I want in my sword and sorcery.



If the content of Origins had been as dark as Awakenings, it really would have been my favorite crpg of all time. (well, aside from Planescape:Torment - but nothing will ever live up to the awesomeness of that game)

[casedawgz]

elearon1 wrote...

To each their own, I was actually rather disappointed with this aspect of Origins, as it didn't seem nearly as dark as they were touting. Instead you could get happy endings all over the place and never had to make a painful decision if you played your cards right. There was nothing dark about it.

Awakenings gave you stories with no happy endings, hard choices where people suffered, missions where you could not save everyone and in which you saw the cruelties of humans and the depths they'll fall to in obsession or despair. I get sick of heroic fantasy - this is the sort of thing I want in my sword and sorcery.

If the content of Origins had been as dark as Awakenings, it really would have been my favorite crpg of all time. (well, aside from Planescape:Torment - but nothing will ever live up to the awesomeness of that game)

I agree on that. I loathe that there is a way out of the tough choice in Redcliff. It should be sacrificing Isolde or killing Connor; that's it. No going to the mages. It really ruins that segment of the game, since basically everyone is going to do it that way every time; it's the only way to avoid losing a ton of approval from Alistair. I LIKE how in Awakenings you're truly forced to make the tough calls, rather than being presented with a tough call and a third, painless way out.

[errant_knight]

I get that there are people who like that, yourselves included, I just don't get why you'd go from making a very popular game that casts a wide net to making one that casts a smaller one.

[casedawgz]

Well, it seemed like it was marketed as dark fantasy, but it really never forced the player out of their comfort zone at all.

[errant_knight]

Perhaps not, but it was insanely popular.

[elearon1]

casedawgz wrote...I agree on that. I loathe that there is a way out of the tough choice in Redcliff. It should be sacrificing Isolde or killing Connor; that's it. No going to the mages. It really ruins that segment of the game, since basically everyone is going to do it that way every time; it's the only way to avoid losing a ton of approval from Alistair. I LIKE how in Awakenings you're truly forced to make the tough calls, rather than being presented with a tough call and a third, painless way out. 

I never once took the easy way out with Redcliff - in fact I pretty much ignore it as an option every time, telling my npcs "there is nothing else to be done" and choosing one or the other.  I think once I made the bargain with the demon so it would come back when the boy was older, but that is as close as I ever came to accepting an "easy way out".  Sure you lose approval with some of your party members, but you can get it back later and you'll have one hell of a time getting through the game without losing approval somewhere.

[errant_knight]

This is what I'm saying. Origins was open to every kind of player. You could make it what you wanted. Awakening, not so much.

[casedawgz]

My problem with the redcliffe choice is that the amount of approval you lose with Alistair is pretty much irrepairable. It's way too much approval.

[Thalorin1919]

Venatio wrote...

Efesell wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Was there actually any suicide in the first game?

Uh, as part of the main quest no less.

Right, killing the Archdemon - never did do that. I saw the funeral scene in youtube and it was so depressiingly anti-climatic. They just drag your corpse to Redcliffe and put it on a stone slab for everyone to see. They say a few nice words but thats it, that and its slated to be shipped to Weishaupt for buriel in some fancy tomb.

I was expecting something more, I dont know, cinematic?

I found the funeral scene one of the most gut-wrenching scenes I have experienced from a game. I had a lump in my throat. The whole scene was screaming with mourning and sadness for me.

Especially Alistair - he was a hardened king and best pal. You could tell in his voice he was on the verge of tears in the end, and Leliana my love was just...blank, she couldnt believe I was gone. I thought the scene was executed very well, my favorite ending out of all the endings.

[errant_knight]

casedawgz wrote...

My problem with the redcliffe choice is that the amount of approval you lose with Alistair is pretty much irrepairable. It's way too much approval.

It's not, actually. I never have to give him a single gift. There's just a ton of gifts for him, so it's not irreparable at all.

[SDNcN]

WuWeiWu wrote...

And on the ensuing 'I've read the Art of War better than you did' debate, if this game had ANY inclination to include an RTS element your argument(s) would have merit... but I don't think that it will, though I'd flip **** if DA:2 had a fleshed out RTS element.

That seriously would be awesome.

[InvaderErl]

Going to get the mages for Redcliffe should have resulted in the village being destroyed.

[Addai]

casedawgz wrote...

My problem with the redcliffe choice is that the amount of approval you lose with Alistair is pretty much irrepairable. It's way too much approval.

?!  There is an abundance of Alistair gifts.  You can also get a +5 for things like Steel Bracers that are not Alistair-specific.  You have to try to get Alistair to hate you.

Granted, I don't go to Redcliffe without 2 Coercion ranks, so with the Persuade check the most hit I take with Alistair for sacrificing Isolde is -10.

[WuWeiWu]

InvaderErl wrote...

Going to get the mages for Redcliffe should have resulted in the village being destroyed.

Except you've already destroyed the undead army, both the part that attacked the town and the reinforcements inside. The only thing left was to deal with the boy. It was the easy way out.

[krylo]

WuWeiWu wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...

Going to get the mages for Redcliffe should have resulted in the village being destroyed.

Except you've already destroyed the undead army, both the part that attacked the town and the reinforcements inside. The only thing left was to deal with the boy. It was the easy way out.

Demon knows blood magic beyond the keen and ken of our warden.

Blood magic = mind control.

If demon had wanted to it could have mind controlled the knights still there, had them walk down into the vilage, start killing people, and then raise the corpses as they fell.

Modifié par krylo, 22 mars 2010 - 06:41 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

krylo wrote...

WuWeiWu wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...

Going to get the mages for Redcliffe should have resulted in the village being destroyed.

Except you've already destroyed the undead army, both the part that attacked the town and the reinforcements inside. The only thing left was to deal with the boy. It was the easy way out.

Demon knows blood magic beyond the keen and ken of our warden.

Blood magic = mind control.

If demon had wanted to it could have mind controlled the knights still there, had them walk down into the vilage, start killing people, and then raise the corpses as they fell.

Which is demonstrated by the fact that Connor mind controlled the guards and even the mighty Teagan to fight you. And the undead aren't killed. They can always be raised back. I think the "raise dead" spell works on the walking corpses.

I agree that the choice of leaving to the circle should have resulted in the destruction of the village. Since it doesn't, I pretend the choice doens't even exist.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 22 mars 2010 - 06:47 .

[InvaderErl]

There were still a ton of corpses as well laying around evidenced by the cutscene after you deal with Connor/Desire Demon.

[Giltspur]

errant_knight wrote...

After the battle with the Mother, I expected to return to the keep to fight alonside my men. I also thought reinforcements might arrive, given that Alistair said that he'd be back as soon as possible. Even if he'd arrived too late, I expected him to show up. That was disappointing.

Not as disappointing as the last line of the epilogue though. My PC goes back to court only to disappear in a couple of years? Shades of KOTOR. I didn't like that then, and I like it even less now. I might feel differently about it if there'd been any mention of the companions going after him/her, but nope. Nothing.

Dark fantasy treads a fine line. I though Origins did that pretty well. It allowed for people to go well off the heroic track if they wished, but also allowed those who don't find that appealing to deal with difficult choices, but still feel like they'd achieved a victory, both for themselves, and their companions. Here? Not so much.

I liked that you couldn't fully save Amaranthine and the Keep.  Without actual consequences, it sort of takes all the tension out of your choices.  When I got to that choice I was thinking "Now what would I do here.  Or [metagame metagame rawr rawr] with this being a video game, can I just save Amaranthine...and then go save the Keep too?"  It's hard to really suspend your metagaming instincts and get immersed if you know there's always an easy "save everybody" option lurking in your supposed moral dilemma.  I decided to reason with myself "Well, what kind of arl am I if I just huddle up in my keep and let the citizens die.  I have soldiers and upgrades and other wardens there for a reason.  A lot of these people are leaders and nobles that just feel more safe there.  This is the main city in this region.  I can't let it fall.  That's too big a compromise."  And then Keep survived and my companions there died.  That was fair.  My decision still worked out and it wasn't robbed of its tension by the game's resolution.  My character felt enriched by the experience.  I'm okay with an "acceptable outcome in a bad situation".   

There are going to be differeng opinions on what they think is too dark to count as still being fun, you're right.  But I think if you're thrown into a bad situation, it isn't unheroic to come out of it with some losses.  It's sad, sure, but there are also victories amidst all that loss.  So, to me, there still seems to be a good, heroic ending there.

[Vicious]

It's hard to really suspend your metagaming instincts and get immersed if you know there's always an easy "save everybody" option lurking in your supposed moral dilemma

Like going to the circle to save Eamon's family, for instance. Probably my least favorite bit in DAO was that part: Everyone says that it is risky to go to the Circle and try to save everyone, but nope, you can take your time, nothing happens, and everyone lives HAPPILY EVER AFTER!



I was pleased that Awakenings went towards the more shadowy side. Makes me feel better for DA2.

[InvaderErl]

What upsets me is the Keep battle is SOOOOO much better.