55 réponses à ce sujet

[sinosleep]

Shotguns are more about feel than dps, but here's my shotgun comparison vid.

sinosleep wrote...

Guys, I don't know how I goofed earlier since I deleted the old vids, but I've since refilmed in 1080p doing the same tests several times and with the new numbers the scimi actually comes in last. The time only gets worse if you don't melee in between since it requires a 5th shot and you don't lose any time with the 1 melee 1 shot rotation. As for the improved katana time, the katana fires fast enough where 2 melee attacks actually hurts your time which is what I had done in the first vid. The katana should be fired in a 1 shot 1 melee rotation.

Here are the new times

CLAYMORE

7.00 attacked klixen
8.833 killed klixen

1.833 total time spent


SCIMITAR

6.700 attacked klixen
9.833 killed klixen

3.133 total time spent

EVICERATOR

7.683 attacked klixen
10.083 killed klixen

2.445 total time spent


KATANA

7.017 attacked klixen
9.433 killed klixen

2.416 total time spent

and a link to the video.

Scimi came in dead last. I've tried it without melee in between, it does worse. I've tried the Katana with 2 melees in between instead of 1 it does worse. I've tried the evi with 1 melee shot instead of 2, it does worse.

Modifié par sinosleep, 23 mars 2010 - 12:34 .

[RamsenC]

Athenau wrote...

I'm basing this on calculated numbers. Scimitar is ~160 damage per shot, 1.67 shots/sec (100 ROF), 8 shot mag. It empties a mag in 4.8 seconds, reloads in 1.5, doing a total of 1280 damage over 6.3 seconds, or ~203 dps.

Evi is ~288 damage per shot, .8 shots/sec (48 ROF), 3 shot mag. The same calculation yields 164 dps.

In practice the kill speed on grunt enemies should be about the same. But there are a couple of instances where the ability of the scimitar to put a lot of damage downrange with a big barrier/shield multiplier is handy (geth colossus, praetorians).

The problem with that way of calculating DPS is the Scimitar in actual gameplay doesn't overtake the Evi in DPS for a big chunk of time. In the first three shots before it has to reload the Evi will do more DPS than the Scimitar. Unless you are firing away at an opponent for 3 seconds or more without any pauses the Scimitar will never do more DPS.

[Athenau]

The problem with that way of calculating DPS is the Scimitar in actual gameplay doesn't overtake the Evi in DPS for a big chunk of time. In the first three shots before it has to reload the Evi will do more DPS than the Scimitar. Unless you are firing away at an opponent for 3 seconds or more without any pauses the Scimitar will never do more DPS.

Not really. Even without reloading the scimitar is 160 * 1.67 = 267 dps and the Evi is 288 * .8 =  230.4. No matter how you slice it the Scimitar comes out ahead. Of course if you're throwing in melees in between then it might change, the scimitar is probably too fast to maintain the full rate of fire with melee attacks interspersed.

Modifié par Athenau, 23 mars 2010 - 01:08 .

[RamsenC]

Instead of multiplying rounds per second and damage look at the damage on a time line.

Evi
294.4 in 0s
588.8 in 1.25s
883.2 in 2.5s

Scimitar
162 in 0s
324 in 0.6s
486 in 1.2s
648 in 1.8s
810 in 2.4s

As I said at 3 seconds or more of constant fire Scimitar wins since Evi has to reload. You also have to consider the value of burst damage. 

Modifié par RamsenC, 23 mars 2010 - 01:48 .

[OniGanon]

This Scimitar vs Eviscerator question has been plaguing me as well. Not for the Vanguard, but for the Infiltrator. Mostly I've been using the Evi for the extra range and armour bonus, but I'm not the best shot without that Vanguard slowdown and it's heartbreaking and game-ending when I miss.

[RamsenC]

It depends how many shots you can get off during the cloak damage boost period. If you can get two shots off with the Scimitar and still get the boost it might be better. The extra range of the Evi is probably more valuable to an Infiltrator than a Vanguard though.

[Sabresandiego]

The scimitar, regardless of its DPS, has a huge drawback in that it doesn't instakill enemies like the other shotguns. This flaw can actually be turned into an advantage however if you use the weapon as a defense stripper leading into biotic attacks.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 23 mars 2010 - 08:05 .

[RamsenC]

You can actually do the same with the Evi w/Inferno Ammo, just don't throw a melee after the first shot. You can definitely choose not to one shot someone with the Evi. With the Claymore probably not.

[Sabresandiego]

RamsenC wrote...

You can actually do the same with the Evi w/Inferno Ammo, just don't throw a melee after the first shot. You can definitely choose not to one shot someone with the Evi. With the Claymore probably not.

Yes you can even do it with the claymore by firing from outside melee range, but thats irrelevant because scimitar can strip defenses from more targets faster than any other shotgun due to its fire rate, clip size, and lower damage per shot. You can also clean up "nearly dead" enemies faster with the scimitar than you can with the evi or claymore which often occurs after a warp explosion or similar biotic assault.

[RamsenC]

You are right about it stripping multiple defenses fast, but I'm not sure why you would do that over killing an enemy or setting up a warp explosion early to stagger the surrounding defended enemies. If you are trying to strip the defenses of multiple enemies overload/reave/incinerate would be superior to that and faster.



Also I use my elbow to clean up nearly dead enemies

[Sabresandiego]

RamsenC wrote...

You are right about it stripping multiple defenses fast, but I'm not sure why you would do that over killing an enemy or setting up a warp explosion early to stagger the surrounding defended enemies. If you are trying to strip the defenses of multiple enemies overload/reave/incinerate would be superior to that and faster.

Also I use my elbow to clean up nearly dead enemies

Watch my Jack Recruitment Video where I strip multiple enemies with the scimitar and they all freeze to death with squad cryo. Stripping defenses with the scimitar can be very effective and sometimes even more effective than just one shotting things with the claymore and eviscerator. Also, while using overload or reave to strip defenses can be an excellent choice, sometimes a sliver of defense is left and you wouldnt waste a claymore or evi shot on removing it, but you dont hesitate with the scimitar.

Your example of stripping one enemy of defenses then setting off a warp explosion is valid, since you can definitely do that with any of the shotguns. The problem is that you still have to kill the survivors of the warp explosion which means 1 shot for the claymore and the evis, but it would have taken 1 shot even if you didnt do the warp explosion. Now with the scimitar, whereas it may have taken 2 or 3 shots to kill the enemies, you can now clean up with one shots. Its easier to clean up nearly dead enemies with scimitar potshots than it is to run over to every enemy and elbow them

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 23 mars 2010 - 09:35 .

[RamsenC]

In that video you only strip the defenses of multiple enemies once and that's because they are right next to each other. Still would be faster to just one shot both of them with 1.25s in between. Every other time you just hit up one guy and warp explode him for a stagger.

If someone is far enough outside melee range to make wasting ammo better than elbowing, the increased range/accuracy of the Evi would make it better for that as well. One shotting a low health enemy on the ground, outside melee range, with the Scimitar seems unlikely (although possible at times).

Modifié par RamsenC, 23 mars 2010 - 09:45 .

[Sabresandiego]

You watched the wrong video. The correct video is Jack Recruitment (under casual play), not my blue suns meet Jack new video

Also want to mention that even though you watched the wrong video, In the beginning of that video I strip a guy of defenses with the scim, charge him to knock him off the edge, then kill his friend. I killed 2 guys with 1 charge which is faster and safer than doing a double 1 shot with the evis and clay. But the correct video I intended you to see was Jack Recruitment.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 23 mars 2010 - 09:51 .

[RamsenC]

Hmm still not seeing how that tactic is better than just killing an enemy. I'm assuming you are referring to the end. With correct use of squad mate powers you can kill those last 3 enemies much faster with the Evi. You actually spent a bit of time on them and almost ran out of ammo.

For the video I wasn't supposed to watch, what you did there is not something exclusive to the Scim. You can shoot the Evi from cover, charge the guy you unshielded, then shoot his buddy just the same.

Modifié par RamsenC, 23 mars 2010 - 10:32 .

[Kronner]

I would not consider one-shotting enemies bad thing. Some people just do not like to use Warp explosions. Simple as that. To claim that one style is better than the other is simply ridiculous. For me, Scimitar is by far the worst shotgun. I like to kill as many enemies as possible with only shotgun, so Evi or Claymore it is.

[RamsenC]

I'm with you on the Warp explosions, but since it is the most powerful thing in the game it's worth discussing.

[Kronner]

RamsenC wrote...

I'm with you on the Warp explosions, but since it is the most powerful thing in the game it's worth discussing.

Yeah, it is most powerful combo, though that does not make it best. For example Pull + Throw is a lot more fun for me, so that alone makes it better than Pull + Warp.
And you can choose not to one-shot enemy with any shotty, just hit him with only half the pellets on purpose, or fire from longer distance, with Evi it is even easier, aim for chest and do not melee afterwards, though it would be kinda hilarious to see

Modifié par Kronner, 23 mars 2010 - 10:49 .

[cruc1al]

Didn't bother reading through all the replies... But I made a video comparing all 4 shotguns, DPS against shields:

http://social.biowar...8/index/1866706

Modifié par cruc1al, 23 mars 2010 - 03:32 .

[Sabresandiego]

Very cool video, I would like to see the test against armor and barriers as well.

[Sabresandiego]

Kronner wrote...

I would not consider one-shotting enemies bad thing. Some people just do not like to use Warp explosions. Simple as that. To claim that one style is better than the other is simply ridiculous. For me, Scimitar is by far the worst shotgun. I like to kill as many enemies as possible with only shotgun, so Evi or Claymore it is.

Kronner you like to limit yourself. You say you dont use meditkits, dont use warp explosions, dont use anything except charge and claymore one shots. The fact that you are a good player and shine playing the game this way is cool, and you have shown how you dominate the game this way in your videos. However, in the end you are still limiting your maximum effectiveness in terms of least risk most reward, speed, efficiency, and whatever else by not using abilities which the game designers put in the game with the intention of being used.

[Sabresandiego]

RamsenC wrote...

Hmm still not seeing how that tactic is better than just killing an enemy. I'm assuming you are referring to the end. With correct use of squad mate powers you can kill those last 3 enemies much faster with the Evi. You actually spent a bit of time on them and almost ran out of ammo.

For the video I wasn't supposed to watch, what you did there is not something exclusive to the Scim. You can shoot the Evi from cover, charge the guy you unshielded, then shoot his buddy just the same.

In the Jack Recruitment video I strip defenses constantly and have my squad freeze my enemies instead of wasting time trying to kill people. This video is filmed on level 30 NG+ insanity and is one of the first missions, meaning that enemies are fully upgraded and I have 1 shotgun upgrade and 1 damage protection. This is why it takes forever for me to kill things, I dont think evi or even clay would 1 shot these guys but they might. The difference in difficulty for this mission on regular insanity compared to level 30 NG+ Insanity is substantial and the video is of a casual playthrough, nothing fancy, but it demonstrates how good the scimitar is for stripping defenses from multiple targets. Of particular note is that after my overloads there is usually a sliver of shield left, and a potshot from my scimitar removes it and allows the enemy to be frozen. With a claymore or evi you would hesistate in firing those stripping shots because its a waste of ammo and gun time. I also strip the dogs of armor, then run around to let them freeze so I can conserve ammo (shotgun ammo is really limited in early game on insanity+ where it takes multiple shots to kill everything and you dont have the ammo upgrade).

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 23 mars 2010 - 07:17 .

[Nexolek]

But he isn't limiting fun. That's the most important part

[Sabresandiego]

Nexolek wrote...

But he isn't limiting fun. That's the most important part

Thats very true, but fun is relative where as effectiveness can be measured.

[Kronner]

Yeah, but I just do what is the most fun for me, I personally see Vanguard class in my specific way, a way I enjoy the most. I do realize my Vanguard is not the fastest (some might say optimal or whatever), but I do not care about that, I can easily play on Insanity using my style and rarely die, so why would I use something that is not fun for me, although it is powerful? Makes no sense to me. I am not playing the game to be the most effective, but to have the most fun.
But this is all off-topic, the answer for the the original question is pretty simple - see for yourself and pick the one that suits you the most. Raw numbers do not mean anything, all shotguns are effective on Insanity (even Katana - as proven by Nexolek ).

Modifié par Kronner, 23 mars 2010 - 08:47 .

[SmilingMirror]

Scimitar for my assault sentinel
Warp + Scimitar + Tech Armor + Barrier + melee = a solid kill on pretty much anything humaniod in the game

Modifié par SmilingMirror, 23 mars 2010 - 09:51 .