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[ejoslin]

Vicious wrote...

I found it very odd that we kneel to Anora/Alistair but we didn't for Cailan.

It really just pissed me off.

This.  I found it extremely annoying.  There was no kneeling in DAO.  Not at the landsmeet, not for Cailin, not for Anora, not when Loghain first assembled the nobles.  None.

Modifié par ejoslin, 22 mars 2010 - 05:50 .

[dan107]

errant_knight wrote...
If you don't kneel, you're rejecting fealty. You're basically challenging the ruler. Husband, wife, or not, their only option would be to have you locked up as Anora can be, thus ending the game. The scenario if Awakening really doesn't allow for open rebellion against the crown.

Not really. She'd have no choice but take it actually. Like she says, her armies are tied up in the Bannorn and she needs you to deal with the darkspawn in Amaranthine. At that point you're the only one that can. So like it or not, she has to accept your help any way she can get it, respectful or not.

And besides, locking up the hero and savior of Ferelden who, among other things, has proven his ability to escape from any dungeon and slaughter anything is his way may not be the wisest decision as far as Anora's personal survival is concerned. She seems smart enough to understand that.

[Thor Rand Al]

dan107 wrote...

Bitterfoam wrote...
While kneeling might be as big a gesture as you described, it isn't even remotely in the same context. If Alistair/Anora showed up and immediately demanded the main character to cut Varel's head off for letting the keep get attacked by darkspawn, and to also kill Mhairi, Oghren, Anders, the templars with him, and then hop on one foot and cluck like a chicken - y'know, in that case, I might agree with you that kneeling is a bit inappropriate.

Your character has been named a vassal of Alistair or Anora, one (as the Arl of Amaranthine), and is a member of the Grey Wardens in a position of power and representing them as such. You're a member of the diplomatic corps, for all intents, of Ferelden. And as such, you kneel to the king or queen.

It isn't justification for why it's appropriate to my character, or any character. It's why you do it. These are completely different reasons and definitions. Even "evil" characters can't get out of the position they're placed into. The only character who would get out of that position is a spoiled brat, at which point he/she probably wouldn't be the Arl of Amaranthine. Title stripped, all that.

Again, you're just restating your opinion for why kneeling is appropriate. I could write a retort explaining why I think that it isn't, but that's pointless since we're not going agree on a matter of personal opinion. You're still missing my point which is that meaningful actions by the character should not be separated from decisions by the player. The fact that you or I happen to agree or disagree with the specific action in this instance is largely irrelevant.

Bitterfoam and all the other are right.  You are literally under the rulers despite marrying into royalty.  The Throne is theirs, not yours.  I see what your saying though.  They didn't give you a choice whether you wanted to or not.  There wasn't any dialogue to choose to bow or not.  Big deal, too get upset over something that small sheesh give me a break.  Sorry for saying this but to get upset over something that small well it's kinda childish but hey that's my opinion n probably not just my own. 





Just when you thought you've seen all the complaints, ugh

[Thor Rand Al]

ejoslin wrote...

Vicious wrote...

I found it very odd that we kneel to Anora/Alistair but we didn't for Cailan.

It really just pissed me off.

This.  I found it extremely annoying.  There was no kneeling in DAO.  Not at the landsmeet, not for Cailin, not for Anora, not when Loghain first assembled the nobles.  None.

No you didn't literally kneel to Cailan but you did bow when he left after talking to him when you first get to Ostagar.

[ejoslin]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Vicious wrote...

I found it very odd that we kneel to Anora/Alistair but we didn't for Cailan.

It really just pissed me off.

This.  I found it extremely annoying.  There was no kneeling in DAO.  Not at the landsmeet, not for Cailin, not for Anora, not when Loghain first assembled the nobles.  None.

No you didn't literally kneel to Cailan but you did bow when he left after talking to him when you first get to Ostagar.

Still, there was NO kneeling to royalty in DAO.  At all.  

Edit: The bow with the arms across the chest -- that wouldn't have bothered me at all.  The kneeling, no.  It wasn't done.

Modifié par ejoslin, 22 mars 2010 - 06:05 .

[Addai]

Agreed, the bow with arms crossed would have been appropriate. As it was, it was a bit jarring. Not only because my character was princess-consort, but because it seems to indicate that Alistair is a more authoritarian type than any of the previous monarchs. Which seems rather ooc. I would like to hear a writer justification. I'm hoping there is one and it is not yet another example of how the later DLCs went awry on their continuity.

[Sarah1281]

I found it very odd that we kneel to Anora/Alistair but we didn't for Cailan.

The meeting with Cailan was a lot less formal than the one with the monarch in Awakening. He happened to meet you on the road and had spent so much time with Duncan he was acting as if they were old friends and the second time he barely stopped to say 'oh, congrats on joining' before he started talking strategy with Loghain. Alistair or Anora were there for a brief formal visit since you were taking up a new post as Warden-Commander and ruler of Amaranthine.

[Thor Rand Al]

ejoslin wrote...

Thor Rand Al wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Vicious wrote...

I found it very odd that we kneel to Anora/Alistair but we didn't for Cailan.

It really just pissed me off.

This.  I found it extremely annoying.  There was no kneeling in DAO.  Not at the landsmeet, not for Cailin, not for Anora, not when Loghain first assembled the nobles.  None.

No you didn't literally kneel to Cailan but you did bow when he left after talking to him when you first get to Ostagar.

Still, there was NO kneeling to royalty in DAO.  At all.  

Edit: The bow with the arms across the chest -- that wouldn't have bothered me at all.  The kneeling, no.  It wasn't done.

Lol I just saw it as my pc was trying to show some respect, trying to show the other's that she does support Alistair, acknowledges him as her King in front of all these people in case other's were around who were still having doubts that he really belonged on the Throne. 
Basically my first act of being a Commander showing my support to my King who I put on the Throne.  I didn't have a problem with it, i thought it was appropriate.  Yes I may be his wife but he's still the King of Ferelden, he's my King, the rightful ruler of Ferelden.


Edit:

Modifié par Thor Rand Al, 22 mars 2010 - 06:19 .

[contown]

I was annoyed by that too.

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

The meeting with Cailan was a lot less formal than the one with the monarch in Awakening. 

This doesn't really matter.  If it is Fereldan custom that you kneel for a monarch, human noble PCs, at least, should have done so at that point with Cailan.  Duncan is the same rank as you are in Awakening, so he should have, as well.  And are you really saying that Duncan was more familiar with Cailan than Alistair's wife or Anora's husband is with them?  Just what are you implying Duncan and Cailan were doing in the Warden camp?  LOL

Modifié par Addai67, 22 mars 2010 - 06:17 .

[ejoslin]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

Lol I just saw it as my pc was trying to show some respect, trying to show the other's that she does support Alistair, acknowledges him as her King in front of all these people in case other's were around who were still having doubts that he really belonged on the Throne. 
Basically my first act of being a Commander showing my support to my King who I put on the Throne.  I didn't have a problem with it, i thought it was appropriate.  Yes I maybe his wife but he's still the King of Ferelden, my rightful King.

But in DAO people didn't kneel!  *grin* It was seriously immersion breaking for me.  This isn't Feudal England.  It's Ferelden.  Had there been kneeling in DAO, I wouldn't have minded one bit.  But there wasn't.  When Anora entered the Landsmeet, not one noble dropped down to one knee.  When you met Cailin, Duncan didn't drop to a kneel.  It just wasn't done.

[SurelyForth]

Addai67 wrote...

Agreed, the bow with arms crossed would have been appropriate. As it was, it was a bit jarring. Not only because my character was princess-consort, but because it seems to indicate that Alistair is a more authoritarian type than any of the previous monarchs. Which seems rather ooc. I would like to hear a writer justification. I'm hoping there is one and it is not yet another example of how the later DLCs went awry on their continuity.

That bothers me, too. However, since you don't kneel to him at all in Origins I'm going to pretend that it was all for show (game show, not his show). Sort of a "Hey, this is an Important Person!" with lights flashing all around.

[errant_knight]

ejoslin wrote...

Thor Rand Al wrote...

Lol I just saw it as my pc was trying to show some respect, trying to show the other's that she does support Alistair, acknowledges him as her King in front of all these people in case other's were around who were still having doubts that he really belonged on the Throne. 
Basically my first act of being a Commander showing my support to my King who I put on the Throne.  I didn't have a problem with it, i thought it was appropriate.  Yes I maybe his wife but he's still the King of Ferelden, my rightful King.

But in DAO people didn't kneel!  *grin* It was seriously immersion breaking for me.  This isn't Feudal England.  It's Ferelden.  Had there been kneeling in DAO, I wouldn't have minded one bit.  But there wasn't.  When Anora entered the Landsmeet, not one noble dropped down to one knee.  When you met Cailin, Duncan didn't drop to a kneel.  It just wasn't done.

While that was true, it appears to be true no longer. When it comes to canon, we're at the mercy of the writers and directors/animators. Were that not the case, I can think of TV shows whose later seasons I'd change right quick. Also, the PC was acting as Arlessa at that moment, and showing her fealty as a vassal holding.

Modifié par errant_knight, 22 mars 2010 - 06:23 .

[Thor Rand Al]

ejoslin wrote...

Thor Rand Al wrote...

Lol I just saw it as my pc was trying to show some respect, trying to show the other's that she does support Alistair, acknowledges him as her King in front of all these people in case other's were around who were still having doubts that he really belonged on the Throne. 
Basically my first act of being a Commander showing my support to my King who I put on the Throne.  I didn't have a problem with it, i thought it was appropriate.  Yes I maybe his wife but he's still the King of Ferelden, my rightful King.

But in DAO people didn't kneel!  *grin* It was seriously immersion breaking for me.  This isn't Feudal England.  It's Ferelden.  Had there been kneeling in DAO, I wouldn't have minded one bit.  But there wasn't.  When Anora entered the Landsmeet, not one noble dropped down to one knee.  When you met Cailin, Duncan didn't drop to a kneel.  It just wasn't done.

Ok I see what your saying and true no one did kneel in DAO and it did throw it off seeing it in Awakenings.  Whether it was an oversite in DAO or in Awakenings who knows but still I didn't mind because like I said it was more of me acknowledging that I did support him and as an example to the other's around me.

[nos_astra]

Interesting. I could never put my finger on why the kneeling bothers me, even though my female PC kneeling in front of Anora isn't as immersion breaking as the princess-consort kneeling in front of Alistair. It's Alistair, dammit! Even if it was a custom in Ferelden (which it wasn't if we're looking at Origins), it's just especially out of character for HIM to accept something like that.



I don't think anyone actually thought about what they were showing in the scene. My general feeling about Awakening is that they didn't exactly pay attention to the details.

[SurelyForth]

I could see Anora making her husband kneel to her if he just needed to excuse himself to use the chamberpot, but it seems like that sort of thing would make Alistair distinctly uncomfortable.

Unless you spared Loghain (once or twice) and then he's probably be happier if you just stayed down.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 22 mars 2010 - 06:34 .

[errant_knight]

klarabella wrote...

Interesting. I could never put my finger on why the kneeling bothers me, even though my female PC kneeling in front of Anora isn't as immersion breaking as the princess-consort kneeling in front of Alistair. It's Alistair, dammit! Even if it was a custom in Ferelden (which it wasn't if we're looking at Origins), it's just especially out of character for HIM to accept something like that.

I don't think anyone actually thought about what they were showing in the scene. My general feeling about Awakening is that they didn't exactly pay attention to the details.

I think there's a difference between when one is acting as Arl/Arlessa, consort, or Warden. At that moment, my PC was welcoming her king and showing fealty. A few minutes later, she was saying goodbye to her husband and there was no such difference in status. It's complicated.

I think Alistair would accept the need for tradition when it came to the fealty of nobles, as long as there was no such nonsense when one was acting as his wife or fellow warden.

We didn't kneel to Cailan because there was no need to demonstrate fealty.

Modifié par errant_knight, 22 mars 2010 - 06:38 .

[Addai]

It is a weird feeling when it seems that you as a player know the lore better than the people designing the expansion? I mean, that is hubris in a way- what the game gods say, goes, and we the peon players must kneel. Pun intended. But, it is disconcerting. Makes the latter DLCs (Return to Ostagar, really) and Awakening seem like orphans. Let us hope they were orphaned because Gaider and Co. are so busy on an awesome new DA game where all will be put right.

[Addai]

errant_knight wrote...

I think there's a difference between when one is acting as Arl/Arlessa, consort, or Warden. At that moment, my PC was welcoming her king and showing fealty. A few minutes later, she was saying goodbye to her husband and there was no such difference in status. It's complicated.

Except you don't see any arl showing the same deference to the monarch in Origins.  Not even your punk Cousland, who surely would have been taught such graces, shows deference in that way when meeting Cailan.

[J-Reyno]

I'll admit, my hnm kneeling before Alistair was somewhat out of place. He might do something like that out of humor, but the way Alistair acted as if my PC was some distant stranger born under his rule was jarring. No mention of how my character needn't bother with such formalities, as I was expecting. The whole scene was just very... wrong, and jolted me out of character. I understand that their situation isn't the same as before being that Alistair is king and all, but the thing is... my dude does not care. In his eyes, Alistair is Alistair, crown or no. He would have been far more likely to say something like "you're late" as soon as he saw Alistair's face.

[errant_knight]

Addai67 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

I think there's a difference between when one is acting as Arl/Arlessa, consort, or Warden. At that moment, my PC was welcoming her king and showing fealty. A few minutes later, she was saying goodbye to her husband and there was no such difference in status. It's complicated.

Except you don't see any arl showing the same deference to the monarch in Origins.  Not even your punk Cousland, who surely would have been taught such graces, shows deference in that way when meeting Cailan.

 Heh, I adressed that in an edit above. Sometimes one can edit too long....
Anyway, we didn't see any of the nobles welcoming Cailan to their holdings, especially as the new holder of the title (in function, if not in fact). The soldiers kneel because he's their king, and therefore, their commander.

[SurelyForth]

errant_knight wrote...

 Heh, I adressed that in an edit above. Sometimes one can edit too long....
Anyway, we didn't see any of the nobles welcoming Cailan to their holdings, especially as the new holder of the title (in function, if not in fact). The soldiers kneel because he's their king, and therefore, their commander.

But, at that point, does the PC know they are the Arl/Arlessa of Amaranthine? Varel has to explain that to you. As far as you know you're just the Commander of the Grey.

Now I'm trying to remember if Genevieve knelt to Maric in The Calling or if all the Wardens just bowed. 

[errant_knight]

SurelyForth wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

 Heh, I adressed that in an edit above. Sometimes one can edit too long....
Anyway, we didn't see any of the nobles welcoming Cailan to their holdings, especially as the new holder of the title (in function, if not in fact). The soldiers kneel because he's their king, and therefore, their commander.

But, at that point, does the PC know they are the Arl/Arlessa of Amaranthine? Varel has to explain that to you. As far as you know you're just the Commander of the Grey.

Now I'm trying to remember if Genevieve knelt to Maric in The Calling or if all the Wardens just bowed. 

I'm pretty sure that Varel just told you about your position. In anycase, you're welcoming the king to a holding over which he has ultimate power as it's leader.

[Patriciachr34]

I think we also should consider context in this circumstance.

1. Anora/Alistair is there to formally recognize and insert the new Arl/Arlessa.

2. This particular Arling was home of the notorious Arl Howe who was instrumental in many crimes against Ferelden nobility and the crown itself.

As such it is fitting that the new commander/Arl of Amaranthine publicly show fealty to the crown.

As for King Cailin, his appearance was unexpected and not intended to be a public demonstration of any kind. I believe Cailin insisted that this be informal, "We are going to be shedding blood together."

Loghain was a usurper and traitor. Showing fealty would have been a public acknowledgment of his right to the throne. So it was very appropriate to not kneel before him.

[Addai]

errant_knight wrote...

I'm pretty sure that Varel just told you about your position. In anycase, you're welcoming the king to a holding over which he has ultimate power as it's leader.

So, you're saying that it is like presenting the arling to him.  I can buy that.  It also explains why your PC is pretty much the only one who kneels, except Mhairi after a hesitation.