153 réponses à ce sujet

[earl of the north]

It works much better if your the Orlesian GW, its another example of why the game feels rushed, my characters probably would have bowed and then hugged Alistair (and called him a rude name ) rather than kneel and probably just bowed to Anora.

Modifié par earl of the north, 24 mars 2010 - 10:25 .

[Efesell]

dan107 wrote...

A polite nod is a show of respect. Kneeling is a jesture of absolute submission. Big difference there.

I hardly see that scene as anything indicating "absolute submission". Maybe if your guy got down and started kissing their feet or something.

[Thalorin1919]

So since the Grey Wardens rule Amaranthine, do they always answer to the King or Queen?



I mean, lets say...King Alistair had to go to war with Orlais, and he could call up all his arl's, bann's, and teryns men to go fight them. Since you are the Arl of Amaranthine, would you participate in the conflict since you are a Grey Warden, or do you go anyways?

[errant_knight]

Thalorin1919 wrote...

So since the Grey Wardens rule Amaranthine, do they always answer to the King or Queen?

I mean, lets say...King Alistair had to go to war with Orlais, and he could call up all his arl's, bann's, and teryns men to go fight them. Since you are the Arl of Amaranthine, would you participate in the conflict since you are a Grey Warden, or do you go anyways?

 Interesting question! I think you go, unless you want to return the Arling to the crown. The wardens are supposed to be neutral, but I think it's more correct to say they attempt to preserve an appearance of neutrality as it's in their best interests. If keeping Amarantine was important.... On the other hand, the Orleisian wardens are their brothers. Complicated....

Modifié par errant_knight, 25 mars 2010 - 01:08 .

[Stoomkal]

As a Grey Warden you *have* to maintain neutrality.

Your army may go... but that is a Crown force... *none* of the Grey Wardens could fight unless they wanted to cause a Sophia Dryden incident.


So... no.

EDIT: If you were a Templar and an Arl, you couldn't really fight the Chantry, either, unless you claimed it was not a righteous war blessed by the Maker...

Modifié par Stoomkal, 25 mars 2010 - 01:12 .

[Efesell]

Ideally, you would probably want to maintain the Wardens policy of neutrality.

Of course there are a vast number of reasons why you may not wish to do so.

[Thalorin1919]

Those make sense.



Honestly though, if Alistair was King, and I was the Arl. I would go to war with him. Not only is he a best friend, but I dont think you would be fighting Orlesian wardens, nor would I bring wardens.



I think in a situation like that if you stayed, the Fereldens more or less may question your fealty to the King also if you didnt go to fight.

[Efesell]

Our characters throw that neutrality thing to wind all throughout the original campaign anyway.

Although I guess desperate measures during a Blight can be overlooked.

[kaiki01]

dan107 wrote...

Bitterfoam wrote...
While kneeling might be as big a gesture as you described, it isn't even remotely in the same context. If Alistair/Anora showed up and immediately demanded the main character to cut Varel's head off for letting the keep get attacked by darkspawn, and to also kill Mhairi, Oghren, Anders, the templars with him, and then hop on one foot and cluck like a chicken - y'know, in that case, I might agree with you that kneeling is a bit inappropriate.

Your character has been named a vassal of Alistair or Anora, one (as the Arl of Amaranthine), and is a member of the Grey Wardens in a position of power and representing them as such. You're a member of the diplomatic corps, for all intents, of Ferelden. And as such, you kneel to the king or queen.

It isn't justification for why it's appropriate to my character, or any character. It's why you do it. These are completely different reasons and definitions. Even "evil" characters can't get out of the position they're placed into. The only character who would get out of that position is a spoiled brat, at which point he/she probably wouldn't be the Arl of Amaranthine. Title stripped, all that.

Again, you're just restating your opinion for why kneeling is appropriate. I could write a retort explaining why I think that it isn't, but that's pointless since we're not going agree on a matter of personal opinion. You're still missing my point which is that meaningful actions by the character should not be separated from decisions by the player. The fact that you or I happen to agree or disagree with the specific action in this instance is largely irrelevant.

If you really feel that passionate about it then wait for the Awakening source to be made public and script your own scene =D

[errant_knight]

The character makes a difference as well. No way my female Cousland would stand around while Orleis invaded Fereldan again, even in a scenario where she wasn't queen, neutrality be damned.

Modifié par errant_knight, 25 mars 2010 - 01:36 .

[Indoril_Nerevar]

Not far into Awakening, myself, been beset by bugs and glitches. I take it this occurs with any character, regardless of whether or not they married Anora? Though as I recall, in my Origins ending Anora was thrown out. Hail King Alistair, Lord of Lamp Posts.

Anyways, this is sounds like it sucks, hard. I'd say... pretend it didn't happen? I sometimes fantasize that Morrigan didn't abandon me, after all. And that when Alistair greeted me at Vigil's Keep, we met with a fist-bump of unrivaled bro-ness.

Modifié par Indoril_Nerevar, 25 mars 2010 - 01:51 .

[dan107]

Efesell wrote...

dan107 wrote...

A polite nod is a show of respect. Kneeling is a jesture of absolute submission. Big difference there.

I hardly see that scene as anything indicating "absolute submission". Maybe if your guy got down and started kissing their feet or something.

That would be groveling. Kneeling is submission. How many times have you knelt before people as a sign of respect?

[dan107]

kaiki01 wrote...
If you really feel that passionate about it then wait for the Awakening source to be made public and script your own scene =D

Oh sure. I might as well make my own game while I'm at it. Always wanted to do that. :innocent:

[Efesell]

dan107 wrote...

Efesell wrote...

dan107 wrote...

A polite nod is a show of respect. Kneeling is a jesture of absolute submission. Big difference there.

I hardly see that scene as anything indicating "absolute submission". Maybe if your guy got down and started kissing their feet or something.

That would be groveling. Kneeling is submission. How many times have you knelt before people as a sign of respect?

Not often, but then again I rarely find myself in such a medieval setting.

[Thor Rand Al]

Not sure if this has been mentioned or not and I but it's not just you and Mhairi that kneels. If you watch that part really carefully you'll see that Seneschal Varel does too but only after he looks over at you and see's that your kneeling in front of the King. When I saw that I kind of chuckled a little.

Didn't know if anyone else had caught that.

[nos_astra]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

Not sure if this has been mentioned or not and I but it's not just you and Mhairi that kneels. If you watch that part really carefully you'll see that Seneschal Varel does too but only after he looks over at you and see's that your kneeling in front of the King. When I saw that I kind of chuckled a little.
Didn't know if anyone else had caught that.

I noticed that too and it made the kneeling before of Alistair even more uncomfortable (before Anora, fine, maybe).

And for the argument that it's a formal meeting - um, I just fought my way through Vigil's Keep. There are only 5 people and a bossy Templar woman around. It didn't feel more formal than any other meeting with the King/Queen.

Modifié par klarabella, 25 mars 2010 - 12:46 .

[caradoc2000]

Indoril_Nerevar wrote...

I take it this occurs with any character, regardless of whether or not they married Anora? Though as I recall, in my Origins ending Anora was thrown out. Hail King Alistair, Lord of Lamp Posts.

It occurs with all characters. Who you kneel to (Anora or Alistair) depends on your Origins decisions. Orlesian wardens always get Alistair.

[Xandurpein]

errant_knight wrote...

Thalorin1919 wrote...

So since the Grey Wardens rule Amaranthine, do they always answer to the King or Queen?

I mean, lets say...King Alistair had to go to war with Orlais, and he could call up all his arl's, bann's, and teryns men to go fight them. Since you are the Arl of Amaranthine, would you participate in the conflict since you are a Grey Warden, or do you go anyways?

 Interesting question! I think you go, unless you want to return the Arling to the crown. The wardens are supposed to be neutral, but I think it's more correct to say they attempt to preserve an appearance of neutrality as it's in their best interests. If keeping Amarantine was important.... On the other hand, the Orleisian wardens are their brothers. Complicated....

It would depend upon what oath of fealty the Warden Commander would swear. While the usual oath would be to supply the Crown with a feudal host in times of war it doesn't have to be. I agree that the Grey Wardens would probably not be called upon to supply feudal trrops to the Fereldan army, but they would still be subject to the authority of the Crown. Remember for example the peasant who had stolen grain from the Crown. As subject to the Monarch of Fereldan the Warden Commander are called upon to uphold the laws of Fereldan and punish anyone stealing from the Crown. The point is that Amaranthine is still part of Fereldan and as such subject to the Monarch.

As for a Cousland joining the defence of Fereldan in war, then I see no problem at all. As a nobleman/woman of Fereldan the player can probably join the defence without raising too much eyebrows, just not in the role as a Grey Warden, but in the role as a Noble of Fereldan. You would for example not be able to order the rest of the Grey Wardens to assist you, but a Teyrn of Gwaren would certainly be expected to put all those forces to the Crowns disposal in war. It depends on which role you assume.

[Tokion]

I too find it strange having to kneel before his wife (queen anora).



I thought in the epilogue both the warden and the queen struggled for power for the throne(if you marry her as a male). Why would the warden suddenly submit to her authority so absolute now?

[Efesell]

Tokion wrote...

I too find it strange having to kneel before his wife (queen anora).

I thought in the epilogue both the warden and the queen struggled for power for the throne(if you marry her as a male). Why would the warden suddenly submit to her authority so absolute now?

The epilogue "speculates" as I recall, something along the lines of 'if they didn't end up fighting' they would usher in a new golden age.

[Xandurpein]

klarabella wrote...

Thor Rand Al wrote...

Not sure if this has been mentioned or not and I but it's not just you and Mhairi that kneels. If you watch that part really carefully you'll see that Seneschal Varel does too but only after he looks over at you and see's that your kneeling in front of the King. When I saw that I kind of chuckled a little.
Didn't know if anyone else had caught that.

I noticed that too and it made the kneeling before of Alistair even more uncomfortable (before Anora, fine, maybe).

And for the argument that it's a formal meeting - um, I just fought my way through Vigil's Keep. There are only 5 people and a bossy Templar woman around. It didn't feel more formal than any other meeting with the King/Queen.

The point is that you are there in the role of Warden Commander, which means you double as Arl of Amaranthine, and the King/Queen is visiting your Keep. Had you been there in the role as Princess of Fereldan things would have been very different.

[errant_knight]

Xandurpein wrote...

klarabella wrote...

Thor Rand Al wrote...

Not sure if this has been mentioned or not and I but it's not just you and Mhairi that kneels. If you watch that part really carefully you'll see that Seneschal Varel does too but only after he looks over at you and see's that your kneeling in front of the King. When I saw that I kind of chuckled a little.
Didn't know if anyone else had caught that.

I noticed that too and it made the kneeling before of Alistair even more uncomfortable (before Anora, fine, maybe).

And for the argument that it's a formal meeting - um, I just fought my way through Vigil's Keep. There are only 5 people and a bossy Templar woman around. It didn't feel more formal than any other meeting with the King/Queen.

The point is that you are there in the role of Warden Commander, which means you double as Arl of Amaranthine, and the King/Queen is visiting your Keep. Had you been there in the role as Princess of Fereldan things would have been very different.

The fact that Varel has to check would seem to underscore that this greeting is different than most, with an unusual protocol that he wants to be sure of before he does anything. It doesn't matter that you fought your way through Vigel's Keep. That has nothing to do with formally acknowledging that the Arling of Amaranthine is vassel to the crown.

Modifié par errant_knight, 31 mars 2010 - 03:28 .

[Maria Caliban]

dan107 wrote...

That would be groveling. Kneeling is submission. How many times have you knelt before people as a sign of respect?

And how many times have you interacted with royalty in a pre-modern civilization?

Ferelden != 21st Century real world.

[Legbiter]

Because she is your PC's liege lord and you owe her fealty as a vassal.

[Thalorin1919]

I dont really see the big deal in kneeling. It was more of a political thing. You are the Arl/Arlessa of Amaranthine and therefore subject to the crown, so kneeling before the King/Queen makes sense.



People are really over-looking this.