33 réponses à ce sujet

[carton]

I've noticed different players have different ideas on what is or isn't "cheating".  I figured I'd post my thoughts here and see what everyone else thought on the topic.

I do several things that many players would probably (and the developers for sure) consider cheating:

• I use the 25 tactics mod/fix.  I think that I should be able to tell my characters to do exactly what I want them to do.  It doesn't make sense for the game to have a mechanism to automate thier actions and then intentionally restrict my ability to use it.  I think that was a poor design decision by Bioware.  I suspect they copied the idea from FFXII,  however in FFXII it works fine because the player doesn't need complicated tactics early on and since the gambit system was new it would have been too confusing to give players too many options.  DAO is much different and I think that full use of the tactics should be availble from the start.
• I use the respec mod (pre-Awakenings).  I like to respec new companions when I first get them.  I only make minor tweaks though - no significant changes (e.g. Allister is always SS, Morrigan is always a shapeshifter with an entropy focus, etc).  I also like to make tweaks mid-game if I find I'm never using a specific talent or spell - I'm not hardcore enough to replay from scratch if I pick a spell I don't use.  But I  never remove anything late in the game that I've made extensive use of.
• Luring/Pulling.  I don't intentionally exploit the AI to pull mobs one-by-one from an encounter,  but I'm also not going to intentionally gimp my strategy OOC to make up for the bad AI.  If I want to make my stand in a doorway or around a corner (to avoid los from archers) then I'm going to pull back to those positions and it's not my fault if the crappy AI doesn't follow.  (minor spolier ahead) Prime example is the fight agaist Ser Cauthrien.  I immediately pulled back around the corner and into the doorway.  I fully expected the melees to follow and a few archers and the mage to crowd at the door/corner.  If they don't do that because they are hardcoded to stand still, that's not my fault.

I think those are the only real significant "cheats" I employ.  What does everyone else think?

Modifié par carton, 22 mars 2010 - 08:16 .

[booke63]

If there exists a cheater, does that imply that something or someone is cheated?



In the case of DAO, I guess it would be the game that is cheated or your own (or another person's) sense of fair play, perhaps. I'm not sure how you cheat a game that is designed to be modded by the players. Can you cheat your own sense of fair play? In other words can you sensibly cheat to hurt yourself, to expressly NOT benefit yourself and instead hurt your sense of fair play? We might call it "cheating" but something would at the same time seem weird about calling it "cheating" when the cheater is hurt by it. Can I cheat another person's sense of fair play? Sort of, but the other person wouldn't be cheated directly and weirdly would receive an obvious benefit as the "cheat" would confirm the other's sense of fair play rather than cheat them of it, no?

[Gill Kaiser]

I don't consider the Respec Mod cheating, as it doesn't provide any new points or unlock any new abilities. It just gives the player more control over their party. I make use of it.

Likewise, pulling into other rooms isn't cheating, it's merely exploiting holes in the AI, a time-honoured tradition in MMOs and offline RPGs.

A 25 tactics mod is a bit more akin to cheating in my mind, as it's basically providing the character with free skill points, since there is a skill tree specifically designed for adding extra tactics slots. I don't think I'd use that one.

The only way I've really "cheated" is by utilising fan-made equipment that is a *tad* overpowered. However, I steer clear of the really, really overpowered stuff. The Grey Warden Runic Armour was as far as I took it, and the stats of that are only a moderate step up from the Warden Commander Armour from Warden's Keep.

[Tech6425]

I always try to pull as few as possible in any situation in any game... its not cheating at all.. its good strategy

[roundcrow]

Re: pulling - For it to be cheating, wouldn't there have to be something noble about getting swarmed and killed?

[Janni-in-VA]

The only thing I really use that might be considered a "cheat" (for lack of a better word) is the mod which adds a fifth slot for Dog.  The slot is placed adjacent to the PCs portrait as if Dog were a summoned pet.

And, pulling enemies isn't "cheating", it's good tactics.

[electricfish]

:l I use custom rings to ensure myself and party members do not die unless mauled by dragons and freaking ogres. Magic resistance, dodge bonus, etc. I've played through two or three times, so I'm using the god items now to let me enjoy the story and the massive amounts of content without fear of untimely death-then-reload.

Not using them in Awakening yet. Gotta finish with at least two characters.



Lockbashing is probably considered a cheat by some. Along with faster bow talents because I don't want to wait three seconds before my archer shoots an arrow.

[Pertan]

I normally dislike cheaters but i find myself cheating quite heavily in this game, i add money from the toolset so i can buy items that i would normally only afford one of in each play-through.

I also usually add coercion skill to max and max lockpicking talents on rogues so i can focus on combat talents and skills on low levels.



I do not think though that i would stand completing another full game without those cheats to make the ride a bit smoother, i'm in it for the story and those cheats don't bother the story any so i'm fine with using them

[Imban]

I used a bunch of mods that added new dungeons to the game, which gave me a whole whack of endgame-tier stuff to import into Awakening - I had something like four The Spellwards, three Andruil's Blessings, two Keys to the City, three Keening Blades, et cetera.



On the other hand, you can make a case that I earned at least some of that stuff. Especially the extra two Keening Blades, because fighting two Gaxkangs at once along with a Revenant and three Steel Golems was a pain.

[AlanC9]

More tactics can't really be cheating, since you could just control all the actions manually. I prefer not to use the mod since I like having to think about how to use the tactics most efficiently, but that's just me.

I can't stand the respec mod except maybe to respec a new character on joining. Live with your mistakes

Luring and pulling? It's obviously an AI exploit sometimes. However, a lot of encounters seem to be designed around luring being the correct approach. A certain battle in the late game is almost impossible if you charge in.

[Gliese]

I've respeced the starting talent for my pc a couple of times since it annoys me that it comes preselected.

Pulling I do if I can but it almost always fails since I have the bring a friend mod active.

[felix4200]

It isn't possible to cheat in DA:O. For it to be possible to cheat, there'd have to be rules, and there aren't. If you consider MMORPG's in comparison, the reason you can be considered a cheater there is because you are playing with others. Finding an exploit, makes you get easily what others worked hard for (which obviously makes them angry), makes you better compared to them etc.



In single player games you are only playing with yourself, so it's only cheating if you consider it so.

[Gliese]

Of course there are cheats. Bowlingforferelden is clearly a cheat. Anything that breaks with what you can normally do in the game. Pulling is not a cheat though, it's either an exploit (if not WAI) or cheese (if WAI).

[Petsura]

Let's see.
I leveled myself to 25 from the beginning.
I gave myself 1000 gold.
I use Misha the Hoarder to store my stuff in camp.
I use the Grey Warden Runic Armor+Weapons and shield to look like a real champ.
I use the respec mod for obvious reasons.
I use the Magic Box in case some of my special items are not Tier 7 on pickup.
I use autoloot to skip the tedious backpack-popups which slow down my PC after a while.

And that's about it.
Of course I already played through the game vanilla-style.

[ModerateOsprey]

I looked at the console commands on the DAO wiki a month or so back and there was one or two console cmds that emailed particluar bioware devs that you had cheated! Can't seem to find them on the wiki now, annoyingly - looks like the page has been changed.

My own view, is that you can't really cheat as such, single player game and that fact that you can pretty much bend it to your will for max enjoyment is what makes this game so truly excellent.

I liked Zorr Crew's point about 8 posts up that you can alter the game settings to suit your play style.

Modifié par ModerateOsprey, 23 mars 2010 - 02:25 .

[Sylixe]

carton wrote...

I've noticed different players have different ideas on what is or isn't "cheating".  I figured I'd post my thoughts here and see what everyone else thought on the topic.

I do several things that many players would probably (and the developers for sure) consider cheating:

• Luring/Pulling.  I don't intentionally exploit the AI to pull mobs one-by-one from an encounter,  but I'm also not going to intentionally gimp my strategy OOC to make up for the bad AI.  If I want to make my stand in a doorway or around a corner (to avoid los from archers) then I'm going to pull back to those positions and it's not my fault if the crappy AI doesn't follow.  (minor spolier ahead) Prime example is the fight agaist Ser Cauthrien.  I immediately pulled back around the corner and into the doorway.  I fully expected the melees to follow and a few archers and the mage to crowd at the door/corner.  If they don't do that because they are hardcoded to stand still, that's not my fault.

[*]This is NOT a cheat in any game such as this.  If the coders and/or developers were to lazy to put in a counter to a tactic that has been around for 20 years in PC gaming than they deserve to have it abused.

[Kurt M.]

I'm proud to say that I haven't cheated in any way with my actual char (see last line). Just happens that I really like the views from the top of the mountain where Andraste's ashes are, and I used to go there pretty frequently. Curiously, that made me feel stronger and more skilled every time I paid a visit there (due to the presence of the sacred ashes, maybe?). Plus, there was a lot of business there for me to handle (mostly scavenging and dragon slaying), and I've such a bad memory that I had to go though the same way many, many times... ^^

[Ayanko]

I always end up with a player with all attributes 100+

I think my con was always 200+

And my str pushing 450

It wasn't cheating I was exploiting. ):>

[carton]

AlanC9 wrote...

More tactics can't really be cheating, since you could just control all the actions manually. I prefer not to use the mod since I like having to think about how to use the tactics most efficiently, but that's just me.

Each to his own.  I prefer the challenge of trying to develop a complex set of tactics (primarially for magic users) that maximizes the character's effectivness in a wide array of different encounters while minimzing my need to micromanage.   Ofcourse I use the advancted tactics mod as well.

I'm considering for my next play-through to challenge myself by only using tactics.  So I wouldn't allow myself to do anything explicitly.  I haven't quite deciced on a few rules yet, i.e. if I should allow myself to manually position the characters,  or if I should be allowed to change a character's active preset during a fight (definitely no changing of individual tactics ofcourse).  I'm using my current playthough to experiment with different tactics setups to see if I think it will be doable.  Should be.  On hard mode probably.  Though I might do nightmare if I find my current run on hard is too easy.

[carton]

Sylixe wrote...

carton wrote...

I've noticed different players have different ideas on what is or isn't "cheating".  I figured I'd post my thoughts here and see what everyone else thought on the topic.

Luring/Pulling. 

This is NOT a cheat in any game such as this.  If the coders and/or developers were to lazy to put in a counter to a tactic that has been around for 20 years in PC gaming than they deserve to have it abused.

I guess I've confused cheating with exploiting.  I think of them as the same thing but apparently many people don't.

[Kurt M.]

Hey! I haven't exploited! NEVER! How you dare insult people with a rightful sense of duty and...limited mental focusing?

[mousestalker]

After my third play through I installed the camp chest mod. The late game load times were getting long so even though I have the Wardens Keep DLC the camp chest made a huge difference.



All of the other mods I use and like are either bug fixes (elven armour) or appearance tweaks.

[Sylixe]

carton wrote...

Sylixe wrote...

carton wrote...

I've noticed different players have different ideas on what is or isn't "cheating".  I figured I'd post my thoughts here and see what everyone else thought on the topic.

Luring/Pulling. 

This is NOT a cheat in any game such as this.  If the coders and/or developers were to lazy to put in a counter to a tactic that has been around for 20 years in PC gaming than they deserve to have it abused.

I guess I've confused cheating with exploiting.  I think of them as the same thing but apparently many people don't.

How is pulling a cheat in an game?  I mean are we really supposed to play like a bunch of boneheads and charge head first into a room of death?  I mean if you enjoy Diablo 2 style rush and chug strategy go for it.  Just don't call people using common sense cheaters or exploiters. 

Now if you want a REAL in game cheat or exploit.  How about being able to AoE an entire room from another room behind a wall without getting agro?  That's certainly not how encounters were designed but if your Q&A didn't catch that or if you were to lazy to code in a fix then it's the designers fault not the players.

[astrallite]

Sylixe wrote...

Now if you want a REAL in game cheat or exploit.  How about being able to AoE an entire room from another room behind a wall without getting agro?  That's certainly not how encounters were designed but if your Q&A didn't catch that or if you were to lazy to code in a fix then it's the designers fault not the players.

This is hilarious. I've beaten so many near impossible encounters this way. The werewolf lair mobs you with 20+ high level/elite werewolves from all directions if you chose to fight white fangs door guards. I couldn't even beat that on easy with a party of level 22 characters, repeatedly spamming mass paralysis, nightmare, and CoCs.

But if you pull back up the stairs, close the door, and cast Storm of the Century...well, goodbye 20+ elite werewolves.

The Ser Cauth fight with mage + archers was also achievable this way.

Modifié par astrallite, 23 mars 2010 - 10:10 .