54 réponses à ce sujet

[Marstead]

Thermal clips should exist, but when you run out of clips, the guns should behave like Mass Effect 1 guns.

That is all, thanks.

[CmdrFenix83]

Pointless. Why even have the clips then? You're essentially back to infinite ammo. I understand why it would be this way lore-wise, but for game mechanics there's no point. The reason ammo is finite is because it allows them to make some weapons very powerful on the basis that you cannot use them 100% of the time.

[Marstead]

Increase the rate of overheat so that you must punctuate your shots with all guns unless using thermal clips. Make thermal clips a resource to be used wisely; have enemies which regenerate quickly and need the quick damage from uninterrupted firing. Once you run out of clips, you should still be able to fire, but at an extremely hobbled pace.



The equivalent we have right now when you run out of ammo is BioWare telling you to "rely on powers until you can find more clips". Why not just give super nerfed infinite ammo with overheat, so that the lore isn't completely trashed?

[CmdrFenix83]

Actually, they system right now is "don't waste ammo". All your idea does is make people using the Widow use it 100% of the time. Why would they care if it overheated after 1-shotting their enemy with a headshot? If you don't waste ammo, it's impossible to run out as it is. The only reasons to change it are 1) wanting to use the very powerful, but extremely limited weapons 100% of the time or 2) lore reasons.



Game mechanics will always trump lore. It's a fact of gaming.

[Lalandrathon]

The sniper rifle power issue is optimally a "program A.I. that can flank you" issue and should not be "use a clunky ammo system so that you can only steamroller with a sniper rifle for most of the fight" issue.

[Wild Still]

Introducing ammo improved the game's mechanics enormously. Some times we just have to put up with holes in continuity to improve the game experience.

[CmdrFenix83]

Lalandrathon wrote...

The sniper rifle power issue is optimally a "program A.I. that can flank you" issue and should not be "use a clunky ammo system so that you can only steamroller with a sniper rifle for most of the fight" issue.

You'd have to nerf the sniper pretty significantly to make it work.  No matter how well you craft the AI, with the time dilation of the infiltrator or soldier, it's easy to snipe every enemy you encounter.  Hard to flank when youre head explodes in a single shot.

[Wild Still]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

You'd have to nerf the sniper pretty significantly to make it work.  No matter how well you craft the AI, with the time dilation of the infiltrator or soldier, it's easy to snipe every enemy you encounter.  Hard to flank when youre head explodes in a single shot.

Agreed, even on insanity, the Widow coupled with the slowdown of Adrenaline or the Infiltrator thing is an absolute beast, the only real restriction is ammo, without it sniping is way too powerful.

[Lalandrathon]

Which is a game balance issue that ammo is a rather kludgey way to solve, in my opinion.

[Wild Still]

Lalandrathon wrote...

Which is a game balance issue that ammo is a rather kludgey way to solve, in my opinion.

I like the ammo mechanic, but I understand that from a plot standpoint it feels really out of place since that concern wasn't around in ME1. Never the less, I think Ammo was a good decision, but I can't argue with the issues people have with continuity over it.

[CmdrFenix83]

They did it the other way around. They put in the ammo system because infinite bullets from ME1 was dumb and made combat dull. They, as well as many others including critics, didn't like the fact that you could literally just hold the trigger running down a hallway and everything on the other end died.



As a side effect of making limited ammo, they could make guns that were really powerful, fun, and rewarding to use without making them overpowered. Ammo is plentiful enough that you can still use these weapons often, but not enough to use them exclusively.

[CmdrFenix83]

Wild Still wrote...

Lalandrathon wrote...

Which is a game balance issue that ammo is a rather kludgey way to solve, in my opinion.

I like the ammo mechanic, but I understand that from a plot standpoint it feels really out of place since that concern wasn't around in ME1. Never the less, I think Ammo was a good decision, but I can't argue with the issues people have with continuity over it.

I agree with this as well.

[Lalandrathon]

I think part of it is that they made a whole lot of improvements to combat feel and gun balance that make the shootouts play a lot better, but people attribute the benefits of those changes to the obvious ammo system change. I, personally, haven't had the ammo system affect my play in a positive manner besides keeping the sniper weapons from being too powerful. You already need to shoot straight if only for the fact that incoming fire will tear you apart if you need to stay out of cover too long and the weapons all pretty much have their situational uses.The ammo system is just an inconvenience and doesn't affect my play style apart from having to resort to power spam/suboptimal weapons on the occasions when I run out, which slows down combat and makes it more boring for me.

[CmdrFenix83]

Lalandrathon wrote...

I think part of it is that they made a whole lot of improvements to combat feel and gun balance that make the shootouts play a lot better, but people attribute the benefits of those changes to the obvious ammo system change. I, personally, haven't had the ammo system affect my play in a positive manner besides keeping the sniper weapons from being too powerful. You already need to shoot straight if only for the fact that incoming fire will tear you apart if you need to stay out of cover too long and the weapons all pretty much have their situational uses.The ammo system is just an inconvenience and doesn't affect my play style apart from having to resort to power spam/suboptimal weapons on the occasions when I run out, which slows down combat and makes it more boring for me.

That's... exactly the point.  You have to use less-than-uberpowerful weapons sometimes.  That's the entire point to the finite ammo.  That and making it unfeasible to just spray bullets everywhere.

[Lalandrathon]

My point is using a suboptimal (different from less powerful-NO basic weapon should be more powerful than another in most/all situations) weapon is not fun and that spraying bullets should be (and is) a terrible tactic even with infinite ammo.

[Tokion]

Although it feels better to reload guns to make combat mimic a shooter more, the 'universal clips' never makes sense.



Imo, they need a 'reload animation' to actually put clips into the guns. Ejecting unlimited clips from my guns never made much sense to me.



Also, having some storage to carry a few packs of spare clips so they can be reloaded into 'any' guns you wish later would be better system.



Finally, ejecting half used clips should incure a penalty. I know alot of shooters out-grown this mechanic, but it would add more realism to not ejecting so many clips in battle.

[CmdrFenix83]

Lalandrathon wrote...

My point is using a suboptimal (different from less powerful-NO basic weapon should be more powerful than another in most/all situations) weapon is not fun and that spraying bullets should be (and is) a terrible tactic even with infinite ammo.

Except it wasn't in ME1.  With Overkill/Marksman, if was possible to do this even with Scram Rail mods.  You'll also have to definte 'basic weapon'.  Because each weapon class in and of itself has its' own advantages and disadvantages.  It's not a question of which gun is 'better' as it is 'which one's mechanics do I prefer'.

For example:  I prefer the Avenger to the Vindicator, the Carnifex to the Predator, the Mantis to the Viper, the Tempest to the Shuriken, etc.  Everyone has preferences.  Even if the Carnifex and Mantis have very limited ammo, I can still use them almost exclusively with liberal use of powers in between shots. 

[CmdrFenix83]

Tokion wrote...

Although it feels better to reload guns to make combat mimic a shooter more, the 'universal clips' never makes sense.

Imo, they need a 'reload animation' to actually put clips into the guns. Ejecting unlimited clips from my guns never made much sense to me.

Also, having some storage to carry a few packs of spare clips so they can be reloaded into 'any' guns you wish later would be better system.

Finally, ejecting half used clips should incure a penalty. I know alot of shooters out-grown this mechanic, but it would add more realism to not ejecting so many clips in battle.

Well, you have to realize that a Thermal clip contains multiple heat sinks.  When you eject heat sinks, it's only the spent ones that are removed.  I gan understand the gripe from a lore standpoint, but from a mechancs standpoint it functions exactly like normal ammo and might as well be treated as such.  Just need to let the 'lore' reasoning go, because the system won't be changed back to infinite.  At best, we'll see another pistol that uses the old system but does pathetic damage.

[MrBeachBum]

I miss the infinite ammo from ME1. I hate when games change things that aren't broken because of critics. If infinite ammo was too easy, play at a harder setting. I think that it wasn't OP in ME1, and that if implemented well, it won't be in ME3.

[branewalker]

This. Ammo is the unimaginative way to solve this problem. Limit ammo by increasing the amount of time it takes for the heat to dissipate.

Game mechanics do not "trump" the fiction of the game world. They work in concert with it or they do not work. This game mechanic, despite being "fun" for people who don't pay attention to the story is maddening, grating, nails-on-a-chalkboard bad for the people that do appreciate the back story.

Bioware obviously cares about these players. I think they don't realize the damage that this sort of "fix" has caused. Yes, I like ME2. No, this didn't ruin it. It just leaves a bad aftertaste.

I can stomach a less-than-perfect fix under the conditions that, given enough time, a clever fix that fits the fiction will be implemented. I expect that this sort of fix will appear in ME3. I fear, however, that the clashing, plaid-and-polka-dot style "ammo" will make a return appearance.

[BS Veyron]

they addressed the fiction. The Geth were using thermal clips and it was found to be more efficient than the passive cooling thus the Geth innovation became standard.

[Thezezeal]

One thing that vaugely irritates me with these discussions is the pro-ammo argument that, if you're good/using weapons correctly/not wasting shots for fun, you'll never run out of ammo-- if that's the case, then from a Player's perspective, there's no difference between having limited ammo and infinite-- the issue only comes about when you actually run out of ammo.

[k177sh0t]

DICE will help out :3

[EternalPink]

I found that i only ran out of ammo if i holed up in one place to long which would then involve switching to a less optimum weapon or going on a scavenger hunt which sometimes was okay but other times it didn't really make sense.

Like when your holding the line in the garrus recruitment mission against the the three merc groups i'd end up having to dash out and grap ammo in between the merc groups arriving which while not a huge issue from a game play perspective it does creates a bit of a logic hole in the RP sense as to how garrus has successfully defended the place for so long without running out of ammo or making himself a easy target and getting shot.

[branewalker]

@BS Veyron

They have not addressed the fiction. I thought this was established, but let me lay it out for you.

1. Thermal clips ought to work like ejectable heat sinks. The player is left to assume they work like this based upon their description. In which case their description matches the video I linked to, not the implementation in ME2.

2. Thermal clips are said to be interchangeable. However, when I pick one up, it adds a set amount of ammo to each gun. If all my weapons are empty, I get one round for the sniper rifle, x for the pistol, y for the shotgun, etc. If they're all full except for the rifle, I get one round for the rifle. It's as if each one contains some "ammo" for each gun and it's not interchangeable.

3. Extra thermal clips are differentiated by weapon. Really? I thought they were universal.

4. Spent clips can't be retrieved once they've cooled down. Seems like, unless they're chemical (and we're never led to believe this by the fiction) that after cooling, the clips would be re-usable.

5. Compared to the ME1 tech, these thermal clips are a clear downgrade, and they are not more efficient. The purpose of the ME1 tech was so that soldiers in the field didn't have to keep being re-supplied with new ammunition, among other perks. The ME2 tech, if it built upon the ME1 tech would allow for the same functionality with the additional benefit of being able to quickly dump excess heat. It would have to be reusable if it were to be widely adopted. It would also not completely replace the previous tech in every Merc band and military group in the whole galaxy in the space of 2 years.

No, they did a poor job of even explaining this away, much less implementing a fix that doesn't introduce new problems to the gameplay.