54 réponses à ce sujet

[Foolsfolly]

Like when your holding the line in the garrus recruitment mission against the the three merc groups i'd end up having to dash out and grap ammo in between the merc groups arriving which while not a huge issue from a game play perspective it does creates a bit of a logic hole in the RP sense as to how garrus has successfully defended the place for so long without running out of ammo or making himself a easy target and getting shot.

It makes sense for Soldier and especially Vanguard. Those two classes should always be active parties in the fight and taking it to the enemy. The Infiltrator, Adept, and Sentinel....less so. But that's ok, there's static ammo spawning points around the place. Some just 2-5 feet away from the most optimal sniping locations.

[EternalPink]

Aye there is which works from a game play perspective but as i said from a role play perspective stuff "magically" appearing next to garrus whenever he runs low on ammo doesn't make sense.

Its not a biggie for me but for the more serious role players it is a bit of a fist to the face

[Cancer Puppet]

Necro thread, much?

[Talthanar]

The ammo system is dumb much like Mechwarrior 4's idea of making Clan weaponry run hotter. Lore version of Clan weapons is superior to inner circle in EVERY way, however they were much harder to come across for the Inner Sphere.

With ME really the clip system needs to be a hybrid for it to make sense. Sure you can pimp your weapon with all kinds of cool **** but at the end of the day fast regen enemies, ammo types, or the like can and should effect the use of the clips. If I'm taking on a bunch of Blue Sun's or Eclipse I don't want to waste my heat sinks since I don't need to. However taking on Krogen and Vorcha damn right I'm gonna use'em cause they regen.

[crooked]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Actually, they system right now is "don't waste ammo". All your idea does is make people using the Widow use it 100% of the time. Why would they care if it overheated after 1-shotting their enemy with a headshot? If you don't waste ammo, it's impossible to run out as it is. The only reasons to change it are 1) wanting to use the very powerful, but extremely limited weapons 100% of the time or 2) lore reasons. <br />
<br />
Game mechanics will always trump lore. It's a fact of gaming.

Bullocks bullocks bullocks.
Thermal clips worked for ME2 considering how the use of weapons and game mechanics were set up, that doesn't mean it was the best system possible. Plus it is still boring, pointless, distracting and not fun AT all to be looking for ammo half the time. Mass effect 1 showed how you can implement infinite ammo without breaking the game.

It created an extra challenge, but not an enjoyable one. It's perfectly possible to combine both systems and make the search for clips redundant. Like a cooldown where each shot you take with a weapon overheats your weapon which slowly regenerates over time, the speed depending on the weapon. If done right, this would mean you can not abuse a powerful weapon during any prolonged fight. The game mechanics and challenges would stay roughly the same without the need for your character to spend half his time looking at the ground scavaging for ammo.

The weapon cooldown was not only lore-wise but also game mechanic-wise a refreshing and great addition. The quest for ammo in ME2 felt so archaic, reminded me of Doom II days. The only recent game I remember having such a stress on sparing your ammo, was Bioshock. It took part of the fun out of that game for me.

[Thezezeal]

Super-simple solution:

Option Menu:
Thermal Clip Quantity <1 - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1000 >

Game Script
OnAmmoPickup IncrementAmmo ( 1 * Thermal Clip Quantity )

Now, I know making an actual full game is quite different, but I've done a lot of Modding for Oblivion, mostly based around Scripting-- so I know something like this is not TOO hard overall, especially not for professional who know what they're doing.

Default could be whatever the optimal settings are, raising it higher increases the amount of additional shots you get for each Thermal Clip you pick up; and if we wanted to really expand it, this setting could decide the ammo-cap on the weapon via (AmmoCap == ( BaseCap * Thermal Clip Quantity).

[Kscipher]

in Mass2 they should have at least doubled the ammo each weapon had... i wanted to use the Carnifex but 24 shots??? retarded... i LOVE the system in the first game... it was great, but i think they could have dialed down the capacity for some of the weapons... i pretty much only used the Assault rifle, but at times i can see why people think it could shoot too much... and i really only went full auto with maximum aim assist on...

[spartacusthegod]

MrBeachBum wrote...

I miss the infinite ammo from ME1. If infinite ammo was too easy, play at a harder setting.

See, the thing with the system they had in ME1, I could take my assault rifle and literally hold down the trigger for over a minute before it would overheat.  And this was playing with a level 44 Adept, not having the stupid maxed out stuff that my level 60 soldier had.  That soldier had a shotgun that COULD NOT OVERHEAT.  I could hold down the trigger all day if I wanted to, keep firing continuously at the fire rate the shotgun allowed, and I would never have it overheat.  Forgive me, but I sincerely believe that it is absolutely a broken system.  The ammo in ME2 fixed that system and made everything more balanced.

Let me put it this way: Mass Effect 1, Insanity, was an absolute cakewalk for me.  I didn't need to try, and hell, I didn't even need to use a weapon I was trained with!  Mass Effect 2, Insanity, is a serious challenge.  The combat and weapon changes they made took the game in a whole new direction, and it was a good direction.  Being a tank is boring, and they removed that from ME2 (with the exception of the Sentinel).

ME2 was made to be more shooter-focused than ME1.  The cover system, weapon and armor changes, and especially the ammo changes were all a part of that.  In ME1, playing as one of the weakest classes with only light armor, on INSANITY, when I leveled up and found nice gear I was entirely untouchable, unless I fell asleep while playing the game.  It got boring because of it.  You didn't even have to try to kill anything, just stand there mindlessly holding down the trigger on something, occasionally pausing to use medi-gel or barrier or something like that, and eventually it would all die.  There was no challenge whatsoever, even on Insanity.  ME2, it made playing the game a challenge no matter what level you are.  You had to think tactically using your powers, which ammo to use against what enemy, and what weapons would be ideal for what situations.  It made you have to try to excel at the game, instead of playing the role of bullet-sponge while slaughtering everything with ease, never having to pause with the shooting at all to reload or cool down or anything like that at all.

I agree with what some people say, the ammo for each weapon IS quite limited, and having more for a reserve for each weapon (without needing research) would have been a smart move, but everything else about the ammo system I approve of.

Modifié par spartacusthegod, 07 septembre 2011 - 04:07 .

[capn233]

spartacusthegod wrote...
... edited for brevity

I mostly agree.  I did not like teh weapon system in the first.  Sure, infinite ammo is sort of nice, but it turns into a hold the trigger down contest.   Overall the system is much better in ME2.

I would say spells like Immunity (on you, or the enemy) made insanity easier and yet more annoying than in ME2 though.  New game Insanity was actually more difficult in ME due to how crappy the guns were and how high the enemies started, even if the guns had infinite ammo.  Case in point is the fight with the two assassins outside Chora's Den.  You practically cannot kill them with early game guns given the powers that they spam.

The caster classes in ME2 have to be more careful about using their weapons... but that is why they have powers.

[spartacusthegod]

Yeah, Mass Effect 1, any difficulty was hard at low levels, and an absolute cakewalk when you're above 40 or so, PERIOD. Mass Effect 2, lower difficulties are easier, harder difficulties are harder, and everything scales appropriately to the level. Playing at level 30 or playing at level 1, all the gunplay is still the same challenge, what powers you have are the only serious limitation.

[Jafroboy]

I gave infinite ammo to everything except heavy weapons. The game is now much more fun.

I say have a heat vent function to guns that takes time but not ammo.

[spartacusthegod]

The only issue with the overheat system was that with the upgrades in ME1, you could literally make it so that your gun would never overheat. Spectre Gear level X Shotgun, with a pair of Frictionless Materials X upgrades on it, and any ammo that doesn't increase the heat output. Suddenly you can't overheat your gun, and combat is no challenge at all.

The ammo system is going to stay because it makes the combat something that challenges you and makes you think, instead of mindlessly holding down the trigger for half an hour or so while waiting for something to die.

[capn233]

That is true enough. Or as an Infiltrator with dual Scram Rail X in a Spectre Rifle X you essentially had a semi-auto rifle that was effective at every range.

[docthe12th]

While I'm fine with 'ammo' as a mechanic, I think that the cooldown system was more original, and could be restored if limits were placed on cooldown reduction... of course, I was fond of a sniper rifle with 'high explosive X' ammo in ME1, so I didn't abuse cooldown too much... I did have a long lasting AR though...

[spartacusthegod]

I was a Sentinel trained with Assault Rifles. The one weapon I ever used was the Shotgun with High Explosive Rounds. Playing on Insanity.

It was an absolute cakewalk. That alone should show how broken the Mass Effect 1 weapon system was.

On the rare occasions I actually did use my Assault Rifle, it would last over a full minute of continuous fire before it overheated.  I could use Overkill, keep shooting, and I would be able to use Overkill again at least once before it finally overheated.  Broken as hell.

Modifié par spartacusthegod, 09 septembre 2011 - 02:26 .

[Quething]

DP

Modifié par Quething, 10 septembre 2011 - 12:56 .

[Quething]

Yes, spartacus, because a poorly balanced weapon mod is exactly the same as a fundamentally broken game mechanic.

Except that it isn't, and there was nothing wrong with the overheat system whatsoever provided you took Frictionless Mats and Spectre gear out of the equation, which, hey, is 90% of the game.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, probably every time one of these threads gets started or necroed: The ammo system in ME2 is stupid. Not just lore-wise, but because it's the least elegant, least fun possible way to prevent camping possible.

First off, the whole stated intent of the ammo system is to force players to advance through the level, to play aggressively. Apparently they originally tested ME2 with a hybrid system, but discovered that playtesters would just use up their clips and then wait on the cooldown, instead of moving around to collect clips.

So what did they do? Did they design enemy AI to be more aggressive, ready to flank players who didn't get a move on? Did they design environments to discourage camping, by reducing the amount of good cover and making more cover destructible or impermanent? Did they create missions with clear objectives that required the player to adhere to a time limit or add enemy tech or biotics that would force players out into the open?

No. They did the exact opposite of that. They stripped out all the enemy talents that could have knocked players out of cover or punished them for sitting still, they put glaringly immersion-breaking waist-high cover every three feet and had mercs glue themselves to it like ticks on a mule. And then they put infinitely respawning ammo clips in every conceivable place in the game that a player would ever want to camp (the aforementioned Garrus' recruitment stands out as an obvious example).

You can go into the C.ini and set the ammo drop in this game to zero, so that the only thermal clips you ever find are the preprogrammed ones dropped into the levels by developers and killing enemies gives you nothing, and then play as a soldier and never once run out of ammo.

How is this a balancing factor?

The only time I've ever felt forced to play aggressively or swap guns as appropriate in this game is during DLC. You know why? Because the Broker's agents and the Object Rho guys hang out at multiple ranges from sniper to shotgun, use flashbangs to knock you out of cover, and sneak around to flank you from above if you don't pay attention. Got nothing to do with ammo.

[capn233]

What difficulty are you playing on? Mercs seem to advance against me on insanity.

You certainly don't need to advance to get ammo, I am with you there. At least not if you are using the right weapon for the right target and aiming decently.

As far as the lore, I haven't been too enamored by their ideas on that. Dust size super-fast projectiles...It was all a way to justify the infinite ammo in the first game. Infinite ammo really takes away from gameplay. No incentive to aim correctly or be judicious with your shots, or even shot placement. That is in fact rectified in the second game.

[spartacusthegod]

capn233 wrote...

What difficulty are you playing on? Mercs seem to advance against me on insanity.

You certainly don't need to advance to get ammo, I am with you there. At least not if you are using the right weapon for the right target and aiming decently.

As far as the lore, I haven't been too enamored by their ideas on that. Dust size super-fast projectiles...It was all a way to justify the infinite ammo in the first game. Infinite ammo really takes away from gameplay. No incentive to aim correctly or be judicious with your shots, or even shot placement. That is in fact rectified in the second game.

I do agree.  There were no punishments whatsoever in ME1 for missing with a sniper, or shooting blindly.  ME2 makes you actually TRY in combat.  If I played ME2 combat the way I played ME1, not only would I be dying all over the place, I would also have no ammo, ever.

They made the combat system for the second game more challenging by adding in ammo.  When playing as a soldier, SURE you don't have to ever pick up ammo, but you're made to use nothing but guns, it makes sense.  Playing as an Adept or Sentinel though, you can easily start running out of ammo if you're not careful.  It makes you start thinking tactically with your powers, and it makes you try to take enemies down then instantly move up to the next row of cover to pick up their clips, instead of just being "Lol imma just be a tank no matter what my class is kthx"  and hold down the trigger.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind if they kept the overheat system.  But the modification system, that was what was ultimately broken.  It's an RPG, so it makes sense to be able to customize your weapons, and that's what I loved most in ME1.  The mods were just utterly overpowered, that's what ruined the gunplay.  They took out both systems, infinite ammo and mods, for ME2, and they're putting the mods back in for ME3, since both combined is overpowered as crap.

[tjzsf]

For those who are saying there are no penalties for running around with the trigger button taped down and everything will die: vids or your argument is invalid. I am willing to accept a certain amount of leeway for hyperbole, but I will not accept if the only case for which this holds is if you double up on the frictionless mods for a Spectre X gun.

In Mordin terms:
Hypothesis: ME1's game mechanics are fine, it is just some guns and mods that are unbalanced.
Experiment: Use no powers. Run through a merc base sidequest with the following trials:
Double Fric X with Spectre X gun.
One Fric X, one Rail X, Spectre X gun.
No Frictionless Materials, Spectre X gun.
Same as above, but with non-Spectre X guns. Preferably once with like a Rosenkov gun and once with a geth pulse rifle or something.
Results: If you really can "breeze through" (defined as take a negligible amount of damage), then hypothesis is false - game mechanics are broken.
If you take a significant amount of damage, then hypothesis is true - mechanics aren't broken, just certain weapons and mods.
If you can kill everybody and take little to no damage, but it just takes really long because you're spraying and not bothering to actually aim then shoot, especially with something like a sniper rifle or a shotgun, then hypothesis is true - while it's possible to do X act, it's also not a good idea.

[naledgeborn]

Guns are for collectors (pun not intended). If the intention is to incapacitate, harm, wound, or kill it's a weapon.

Sorry, you see it a lot forums. It's just the training speaking.

[spartacusthegod]

tjzsf wrote...

For those who are saying there are no penalties for running around with the trigger button taped down and everything will die: vids or your argument is invalid. I am willing to accept a certain amount of leeway for hyperbole, but I will not accept if the only case for which this holds is if you double up on the frictionless mods for a Spectre X gun.

I don't have a video, but I have an example (and this is true about what happened, I have witnesses).

Final boss of ME1.  The skeleton-Saren.  I was a Sentinel, I had Liara and Wrex on my team.  Because of the mods I had, I could keep him in complete and utter lockdown from biotics the entire fight.  He got one rocket in, and that's because I couldn't find him at first after the cutscene ended.

Just a note: the ONLY time I let my finger off the trigger was when it was on the right bumper (360) instead so I could aim abilities.  I was firing the entire time, Spectre Gear X Assault Rifle, Scram Rail X, Frictionless Materials X, and Inferno Rounds X.

Liara uses Lift, and we all pump rounds into him.  He falls.  The instant he gets back up, I hit him with Throw.  He slumps down for a bit.  He gets back up, and Wrex uses Throw.  He slumps over.  By the time he gets back up, Liara has Lift cooled down and can use it again.  This was on INSANITY, mind you.  Max lift and throw were used, and in between I was having everyone hurl all the damage protection reduction possible at him, max Warp and max Overload as often as possible.

I never saw my heat meter go above half for my rifle, EVER.  And I didn't touch Overkill once.  I ate that one rocket he got off, dropped my shields and half my health (because it was a freaking ROCKET) and besides that one hit, not a single one of my squad or me got touched the entire fight, on the hardest difficulty, against the final boss of the game.  If that doesn't scream, absolutely yell at the top of its lungs with bloody murder involved, "BROKEN GAME MECHANICS," then I have no idea what will point it out to you.

[khevan]

I think the point that's being made is that the game mechanic itself is not broken, but the end game weapons and weapon mods combined with the mechanic that is broken. If you take a Spectre X Assault Rifle, remove the Frictionless Materials X, and you have a weapon that will overheat, albeit much more slowly than earlier weapons. Remove the Spectre class weapons entirely, and the overheat mechanic becomes much more of a factor.

I'm neither agreeing or disagreeing with the change to thermal clips in ME2, but it is a case of completely changing the gameplay vs. tweaking an original system to make it better. Some people like the change, some don't, but neither system is inherently better than another, in my opinion.

[capn233]

tjzsf wrote...

For those who are saying there are no penalties for running around with the trigger button taped down and everything will die: vids or your argument is invalid. I am willing to accept a certain amount of leeway for hyperbole, but I will not accept if the only case for which this holds is if you double up on the frictionless mods for a Spectre X gun.

If taken literally, no you cannot hold the trigger for a whole mission.

Take a Soldier, since they are the most gun dependent.  Use dual Scram Rail X.  Scram rail because the heat penalty is a lot less than the Rail Extensions.  No you cannot hold the trigger down the whole mission.  However, you will never overheat with overkill active, and you practically will never overheat with it off if you let of the trigger in between targets.

Dual FMX and yes you can practically hold the trigger for an entire engagement.

It isn't entirely game breaking because some enemies cannot hardly even be killed just holding down the trigger on such an AR and killing them.  Like the Krogan or random other enemies that have immunity.  So you have to take the extra step of having Liara cast Warp on them... then the damage modifier makes them die.

Early game, with non Spectre guns, you aren't going to be holding the trigger as much because they are so much less heat efficient.  Perhaps they could have kept heat if they toned down the heat efficiency of the high end weapons and relied on more damage output.

[tjzsf]

spartacus: your story sounds more like an argument for why biotics were broken in ME1, as it seems like you didn't take damage because you were able to shut him down with biotics and tech, not because you were able to kill him quickly due to your gun never overheating. Now, if it is the same story with a different gun and no frictionless materials, then you may have a case. Also, see the below paragraph:

capn: that's why I set the parameters specifically for random merc base (like, I dunno, Helena Blake or Dahlia Dantius). Enter building, hold down fire button until everyone is dead. Do not actively use powers so we can tell if infinite ammo guns are overpowered. Do the test for various combinations of Frictionless Materials presence. Also use them with different guns because missing one shot with an AR is much different from missing one shot with a shotty.

Basically, have the most basic steps to eliminate confounding factors, so you're sure it's infinite ammo that makes combat overly easy, and not stuff like biotic powers or the presence of certain mods.