260 réponses à ce sujet

[kraidy1117]

I stopped reading when you said Halo was the best to ever grace your system before ME. I however go by what others have been saying. Gameplay was 10x better then ME. Combat was fluid, fast paced and fun. Planet scaning is quick and easy. The characters where way better then in ME, some of the best BW has ever done. The story could have been alot better it was still better then ME, (realy ME story was not that good, BG2, JE and KOTOR all had better stories then ME) the music was way better in ME2. Legion, Tali, Garrus, Miri and Samara's themes where all well done and jump drive, crash landing and end run where better then all of ME tracks.



If you don't like the game, then return it and don't play it, don't come here complaining. Only a minority of the people here hate ME, majority love ME2.

[Jzadek72]

Payne by name wrote...
Although Halo takes the crown as best gaming experience on any console

Sorry, I stopped reading there.

Modifié par Jzadek72, 23 mars 2010 - 11:19 .

[Darth Drago]

For those who haven’t played Dragon Age this is what we are talking about when it comes to the dialog in the game. You’ll have to scroll to the bottom half of the page though to see the random banter. http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Morrigan's_Dialogue

[TJSolo]

Darth Drago wrote...


For those who haven’t played Dragon Age this is what we are talking about when it comes to the dialog in the game. You’ll have to scroll to the bottom half of the page though to see the random banter. http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Morrigan's_Dialogue

Actual talking would do better...



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFCEWymAc8g&feature=related

Modifié par TJSolo, 24 mars 2010 - 12:25 .

[Grilled Trout]

Payne by name,



I think my response to you was a bit over the top in length, but I appreciate your time in reading through all of that. You are probably right in that we will get into a looping discussion that will never convince anyone. Heck, I think people try to convince others to look at things their way... a bit too much in the forums in my opinion.



I would like to ask you though... I know you were disappointed with Mass Effect 2, but was it still enjoyable in its own right? Or did you just outright hate it?

[Payne by name]

SpartanMKV – That’s a great summation of the emotional impact, or lack of it. As you say once you’ve assembled a team, then going on a series of missions relating to the main plot would help niche it all together.



Likewise killing off people or witnessing sacrifices from your team half way through the game would make it resonate more. I think this is the reason why the Ashley/Kaiden moment in ME1 has so much resonance. You actually have time to digest it and it to fully sink in. You witness their empty chairs at the post mission debrief.



Kraidy1117 – “If you don't like the game, then return it and don't play it, don't come here complaining” – What a ridiculous thing to say on a forum. What point is it if everyone shares exactly the same opinion? I think the title of my post was fairly explanatory so if you didn’t want to read my disappointed thoughts, don’t click on it.



Jzadek72 – I’ve said it before. Halo, for me, was a great gaming experience. Notice the words experience. It doesn’t matter whether it’s story etc wasn’t as good as what followed or was clichéd. It was how it all clicked – the music, the action, the characters.



We all have seminal moments on different consoles. Resident Evil or Twisted Metal on the PS One, Max Payne on the PS2. For me Halo was the most powerful of all memories and experiences. I wasn’t putting it in there as a direct comparison but rather to indicate where Mass Effect stood for me.



Grilled Trout – Believe me, there’s no need to apologise for your response being lengthy, certainly when you look at my original post! It was great that you thought it worthy of a response of that length, and you made some interesting points.



There were certainly moments that I enjoyed, I did give it 60 hours or so of gaming. Some of the vistas were impressive but it was a different kind of enjoyment. Playing COD is enjoyable because it’s flashing lights and loud bangs. It’s enjoyable but it’s emotionally lightweight. ME2 wasn’t as lightweight as COD but it didn’t pack the same emotive punch as ME1 did for me.



It felt like a different game. Maybe it wasn’t but when you make an emotive connection to a game I think you notice things more readily. Things jar more because you are feeling them. The connection is stronger than with most shooters. I mean Fallout 3 was very atmospheric and huge but I never connected with my chap in the same way that I did with my Shepherd. For me it was the future of interactive entertainment. Maybe in ME2 the bubble burst a little.

[Darth Drago]

Payne by name wrote...
Darth Drago – It’s great having lots of team members but when you can only use 2 at a time, and achievements seem to be given for being certain race allies (with the possibility that this might have led to plot related points), it seems too many. The analogy to Magnificent Seven is a good one.
Another good point on the mission end point. It felt so clumsy, so eschewing the exploration or immersion vibe. It was basically saying “okay, you’ve ticked all the boxes, let’s get going”
Yeah, the scanning wasn’t much of a mini game though you couldn’t not do it if you wanted the minerals. There’s also the opinion when people say “you don’t have to do it if you don’t want to”. I agree maybe you don’t but if you are playing a game and decide to miss bits out because they are tedious, it’s affecting your experience of the whole game. You are basically prepared to omit parts of and hence have the realisation that you aren’t embracing it.
By finding the scanning to be boring, I felt reading about the planets pointless. This then led to me not really bothering to read the Codex anymore.
I appreciate your line by line response to my points and agree with your interpretations. Likewise I had expected a Virmire style decision. Quoting Virmire really sums up what’s missing from ME2. When a friend, new to Mass Effect, had played the first one there were so many things/decisions/set pieces to discuss with him – What had happened on Virmire, did he let the colonists live on Feros, what did he do about the council, who did he romance, who did he make the human representative.
In ME2 it was who did he romance and what did he do with the collector base?

Yea, the achievements you earned in ME2 were a joke. If you can get all of them in your first run through of the game, like I’ve heard from several who had done it they aren’t achievements anymore.

The so called suicide mission still bugs me. I didn’t loose anyone my first time through the game, just because I did all the loyalty missions and upgraded the ship or I should say I played the game the way it was designed. It was after I beat the game that I looked it up on how you can loose these people during this “suicide run” and after I found out it felt like a cheap gimmick. I wish the developers had watched The Dirty Dozen or Seven Samurai.

The choices that you had to choose seemed obvious to me.
-You currently only have 2 Tech experts, Tali and Legion (maybe Kasumi when she comes out) so why would I choose someone else to be a hacker?
-The other group leader (both times) was also plainly thrown in your face. You need someone who can lead, who has leadership skills. Only Garrus, or Miranda come to mind for that maybe Jacob or Mordin but I wouldn’t risk it with them.
-The Biotic expert choice is again limited to only 2 choices, Jack or Samara/Morinth. Another no brainer.
-As for the escort it can be done by anyone.

I had also expected to see a few little moments in the cut scenes during this final mission showing some of those companions who were at odds with each other. Miranda giving a hand to Jack, Legion taking a non lethal hit for Tali, Thane helping Jacob (or vise versa in all of them) but as far as I recall there wasn’t anything like that shown where the team settled their petty differences to get the mission done. They could have gone totally creative on the deaths, using my companions at odds with each other bit above, had a loyal person sacrifice themselves to save a non loyal one. Instead of a non lethal shot that Legion blocks it was a lethal shot because you couldn’t resolve their argument peacefully but chose to side with Legion. It could have added some dialog after the mission as well just for that. Not like the one liner you got in the game was worth anything.

-And your right there is absolutely no decisions made in ME2 like there was in ME1 that could even pass into ME3. We got the Collector base and who did you romance or what ME1 romance impacts will there be because you cheated on them. Maybe Tali’s loyalty mission outcome but nothing else comes to mind.

Modifié par Darth Drago, 24 mars 2010 - 05:06 .

[Payne by name]

Darth Drago – I feel similarly about the mission. I did all the loyalty missions for everyone and made, what I thought were similarly logical choices. Garrus as alternate team leader, Legion as tunnel rat, Samara as biotic umbrella and Jack to escort the crew back.



Yet I couldn’t work out why or even how Mordin died. Just a quick shot of him on the ground and that was it, he was gone.



That’s a good point about the cut scenes, it would have played well but coming so late in the game, I’m not sure if it would have been enough to pull it back. It’s funny but it was those kind of scenes that do allow a connection to grow. Seeing Kelly dragged into the lift or Samara buckling under the effort of applying the biotic umbrella. It made me say “hang in there girl” and just re-enforces the bonding with the characters. But had similar scenes been played earlier in the game (like the Ashley/Kaiden dilemma in ME1) they would have resonated more.



I felt uncomfortable with the terminator/humanoid ending. It felt very Japanese. Now there’s nothing wrong with those kind of endings/final bosses but it brought to mind Resident Evil and the kind of endings where the bad boss, keeps dying but then organically re-growing, sprouting more arms and teeth etc and getting even bigger.



I know Saren kind of did that at the end of the ME1 but it was kept realistic if you know what I mean. The bad guy was the human sized form of Saren when Sovereign took him over and then also it was just the Sovereign ship. It was tangible and you could get your head round it. A huge robot with burning eyes, whose size could swat you, didn’t (for me) sit with the realism that the game tried in many instances to display.



Likewise I didn’t feel much nerves or anticipation at the cut scene when Shep was running for the Normandy. I was surprised they didn’t let you control it. I mean I guess the game could have surprised me by Shep not making it but no one had died and I’d dispatched the big bad boss so I had no reason I thought to worry that I might not survive.



I know this will be construed by many as nit picking but as I’ve said before, I always believed that ME was a game that you feel rather than play, if that makes sense. Hence when you ‘feel’ something the disappointments can seem more pronounced.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Hmm, I feel like alot of people aren't giving the suicide enough mission for what it's meant to reflect. On the whole, I did feel it was lackluster, but the decision to blow up the base wasn't as simple as I thought it would be. It's not just an issue of "Do I trust TIM, or not?"

Sovereign (and Legion) explains how the biggest advantage which the Reapers have always had over organics is that organics have always copied Reaper technology. Thus, they 'always' evolved along lines which the Reapers could predict. I wouldn't say I think the Reapers were planning for you to obtain the Collector Base, but I do see the negative consequences it could have. Our biggest advantage as organics is our unpredictability. Rather than continue on the technological path set by the Reapers (and helping TIM), we should be relying on the one element the Reapers cannot control and attempt to move in our own direction.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 24 mars 2010 - 08:08 .

[tonnactus]

Poisonedblades wrote...

just seems like the crazy ramblings of a gamer who does not understand what makes a game good to me. Just the fact that halo is your greatest gaming experience is a testament to this. Halo's story was poorly written.

Too good that collectors are protheans isnt uwe boll quality.I guess even he could it better.

[tonnactus]

spacehamsterZH wrote...

Forsakerr wrote...

what am i smoking? completely legal stuff thank you ,you cant recruit Samara/Thane or Tali when you want to you have to wait to get them and you get Legion at the end ,maybe it does not bother you but it does for me

Okay, but the fact remains that you have tons more freedom in terms of what order you want to do the missions in than you did in ME1. That's not even counting the many sidequests that are triggered by conversations on the hub worlds or that take place on other planets.

I Mass Effect,i could do therum at last,all main missions except virmire/ilos in any order.I couldnt do the reaper iff before the collector ship or horizon.Freedom.Where?

Modifié par tonnactus, 24 mars 2010 - 09:54 .

[tonnactus]

cerberus1701 wrote...


Swapping is an annoyance. I'd be playing it exactly as the game is set up now.

A lot of people had a hardrive on their xbox...

[SpartanMKV]

kraidy1117 wrote...

If you don't like the game, then return it and don't play it, don't come here complaining. Only a minority of the people here hate ME, majority love ME2.

First of all, I don't even know if that's true. I've seen a lot of disappointment threads and a lot of comments agreeing with them. Second of all, only a minority of the people in the United States are Black, but they still get a voice, even a significant voice (the point being that even a minority can influence things). Third, that's a pretty narrow view of what the purpose of a discussion forum is. Fourth, offering a thoughtful critique that just happens to grate against your supposed "majority" opinion doesn't constitute complaining.


p.s. It's really cool and edgy to hate Halo and down anyone who had the audacity to enjoy it. After all, only a minority of people hate Halo; the majority loves Halo.

Modifié par SpartanMKV, 25 mars 2010 - 12:54 .

[SpartanMKV]

Payne by name wrote...

I know Saren kind of did that at the end of the ME1 but it was kept realistic if you know what I mean. The bad guy was the human sized form of Saren when Sovereign took him over and then also it was just the Sovereign ship. It was tangible and you could get your head round it. A huge robot with burning eyes, whose size could swat you, didn’t (for me) sit with the realism that the game tried in many instances to display.

Agreed. Not quite sure how small arms fire is going to kill something whose final form is oh...about 2km long. Granted, it's just a "baby," but it was at least half-there. Why didn't it just flick us away with it's fingers like the insects we were?

[KotOREffecT]

I def dug the Suicide Mission. I loved the pacing of it, and the music that just ampted it up even more. I just liked the feeling of knowing the **** was going to hit the fan before it did, like you were about to embark on something after going through the events of the first game and recruiting people in the 2nd. Know that you could die and lose it all, it created this sort of angst. It was a lot more intense than in ME 1, and the little hype speeches that Shep gave was epic.



Not to mention the choice to save the base or not, and watching it blow up was def satisfying because it looked awesome. It just made it more personal if you saved it, like if Luke had instead wanted to save the Death Star instead of delivering the final blow.



And the talk with TIM afterwards when his music kicks in and you see a facial shot of Shepard who looked tormented and tired was just epic. And then seeing the Reapers at the end as Shep and the crew stared out into space was a nice touch.



Both endings in both games were kickass, the level design was better on the Citadel ending, and had those epic moments like Shep emerging from the wreckage that is unmatched in ME 2, but thats not to say that ME 2 didn't have some thrilling moments like Shep jumping for the Normandy with the End Run track pumping through your speakers either. Both endings fit both of the games right, thats all that matters.

[Darth Drago]

spacehamsterZH wrote...

Forsakerr wrote...
what also annoyed me what the linear way of recruiting your squad mates

FFU... okay, seriously, WHAT are you people smoking? Linear? You get something like 10 recruitment missions thrown at you and you can do them in any order you damn well please, followed by the same number of loyalty quests, which you can also do any way you want. After the Collector ship mission, there are literally at least 20 hours of gameplay where you can do absolutely anything you want at any time you choose. Are we even talking about the same game here? I can understand people saying the individual missions feel very linear, but overall, I'm sorry, ME1 was clearly more linear because it was more focused on the main quest. Whether you think either is better than the other is neither here nor there, but it simply isn't true that the recruitment of the squad was a linear process.

-Freedom's Progress
-The Professor, Archangel, The Convict or The Warlord
-Over the Horizon
-The Assassin, The Justicar or Tali
-Collector Ship
-Reaper IFF
-Activating the IFF
-Suicide Mission

Looks pretty linear to me. He only choices you get is what order you recruit your first batch of people and your second batch. That’s not a lot of choice in those missions. IF BioWare had set it up that you could recruit all your companions right after Freedoms Progress including Legion (tossed in someplace) it would have made it a hell of a lot less linear. It also would have given the game a huge replay value.

Now if you take out the recruitment missions in that list all you have is a fully linear main quest set up.

The loyalty missions start showing up so quickly after Horizon that you almost need to get them out of the way before your second recruited group starts asking you for help on their loyalty missions. Side quest missions are not even considered in this argument.

-Payne by name, don’t think of it as nitpicking. You should see my gripes lists in the non spoiler section. (link to the active one is in my signature) I’ve had some people quote a long list I made only to leave a comment like “Your just nitpicking”. The thing with almost everything I’ve noticed, comes from playing the game the first time. To me that’s just not good game design and a lot of it really makes me wonder if the game was even play tested by anyone before it was rushed out the door.

For the record I felt the same way about Halo when I first played it. It was a masterpiece combining a first person shooter a deep story and top notch controls. As someone who didn’t play many games on the computer at the time games like Half Life I never saw. My last great 1st person shooter game would have been Goldeneye before Halo.

Modifié par Darth Drago, 25 mars 2010 - 01:05 .

[Payne by name]

Apologies for the delay in my response. Busy couple of days at work that filtered into the evening.



BaladasDemnavanni – Interesting theory on the collector base. Trusting of TIM was a factor but I thought the tech found could give us an edge.



SpartanMKV – Some good points on how others might be feeling.



I’m intrigued to see how many people that loved ME2, also loved Avatar. I only say this, as I seem to be in the minority of those that thought it very average and hardly worthy of the 12 year absence and cries that cinema would never be the same again. With so many people/critics heaping praise on that and now the same with ME2, it only enhances a feeling of separation from the majority of people it seems!



Kotoreffect – That’s a fair comment. When you are playing it, or rather I think, experiencing it, the endings will feel different for different people. To me the one in ME1 was just amazing. The reveal of the Keepers, the stoic sacrifice of the final Protheans and race to the Citadel to see Sovereign destroying what you’ve grown to like and feel safe within.



DarthDrago – That’s a good point on the first play through experience. As we’ve discussed, ME is an emotive experience. Like reading a book but your own book if you know what I mean. Hence the first experience is the most powerful. You only ever one chance to experience it for the first time and that is when it’s at it’s most powerful.



Hence although things might become clearer when you play it again by then the ‘initial magic’ is lost. It makes you almost want to be a play tester for something like this. Not because my opinion is all important but I think its important for Bioware to see how different people play their games. Hence I think seeing the feedback of someone who takes their time and wants to ‘feel’ the journey would provide some element of balance to their feedback. I’m not saying that our opinions outweigh anyone else’s but maybe they need to bring in a few ‘nitpickers’!



Glad you felt the same way about Halo. It is funny to read other people’s dismissal of it for being clichéd and too populist. I like the story in ME but I can’t say it’s the most original, I mean there’s more than an element of B5 in there. Furthermore Halo was a popular shooter, which is certainly a direction that ME2 shifted towards in my opinion



On a final point, I recently finished watching the entire B5 series again with my brother who had never seen it before. Thankfully he could appreciate the franchise’s brilliance but in a way it speaks volumes about ME1 & ME2. Because of it’s limited TV budget the show could never be awash with massive battles. Yes it did well with what it had but because the story was so good and the characters written so well, the greater impact came from the depth of story and characters reactions to events rather than the ‘slammin’ action. A pointer, IMO, that the makers/writers of ME2 could have considered.



PS I never played Goldeneye, so for me it would have been Medal of Honour or Timesplitters before Halo came out.

[Darth Drago]

Ah, Babylon 5. That brings back some good memories of a great series and even a decent short lived (killed before its time) spin off Crusade. So well written with a great cast. One of my favorite episodes was one that featured 2 maintenance guys watching a battle out side “A View From the Gallery”.

Back to ME2:

I’ve even noticed problems with the background not matching up to what is being said to you in at least two spots that I noticed on my first play through. I’m sure there are others but these two are just annoying to me since they stick out so much and I did spot them in my first run through the game.

- On the Cerberus base you wake up on Miranda tells you that her shuttle is the only one left. If you looked around in the room before that you can see at lest 2 or 3 shuttles in the background. Her reply should have been “Unless you can pilot a shuttle on your own, go ahead and stay.” instead of the one she did in answer to you not trusting them or wanting to go with them (cant remember the exact lines).

-Jacks Loyalty mission when she says “If nobody is supposed to be here then who shot that varren?” yet there are 2 dead varren. At first I was like going to think maybe the plural of varren is still varren but that doesn’t excuse her saying “that varren” in her dialog.

It even annoys me that if you have Garrus in your group on Horizon, Kaidan/Ashley and Garrus wont even acknowledge each other. Same thing goes on Illum with Liara if you bring Tali and Garrus with you to see her again not a word between them.

Or like how the shuttle you fly over to Tali’s fathers ship is the same one the Normandy uses, a Kodiak. I would have expected something different here at least.

Its the little details that make or break a great story and ME2 has a lot of little details that just mess it up.

I don’t think BioWare would have wanted me to be a play tester for ME2 or for ME3. I wouldn’t fit in with their plans to make another mediocre game instead of a great one.

Modifié par Darth Drago, 28 mars 2010 - 07:14 .

[Payne by name]

You are spot on with B5. That was a great episode that you mentioned with Bo & Mack. I always liked Ivanavo's little speech when she confronts the earth hybrid shadow battle group and starts "who am I..."



You are right, it is the small things that can make the difference. I think we would have been the kind of testers that Bioware would have thanked us for our time, and the copious notes we'd have made, and then binned as they saw us out of the building.



You should check out my website, www.paynebyname.com, for although you might not agree with my views on women etc we do seem to share, along with SpartanMKV, a similar taste in games, TV etc.

[-Skorpious-]

I ultimately agree with you OP. However, since combat was such a controversial aspect of ME it was only natural that they devoted as much resources as they did to improve the gameplay (if you were a cook who was constantly receiving mixed reviews about the quality of your sauces, you would begin to devote more time to preparing the sauce, correct?).

I do remain optimistic however. Since ME:2 established solid combat, hopefully Bioware will start listening to the fans "mixed reviews" on the quality of the plot; instead focusing intently on delivering a better and more immersive story/narrative than what even ME accomplished. 

Modifié par -Skorpious-, 29 mars 2010 - 08:54 .

[Payne by name]

Skorpious That's a good point and considering many did grumble about the combat, it's understandable that they would expend some effort in improving it.



I just think they spent a little too much effort at the detriment of what for me, are the pillars of what made ME1 so memorable.

[Karstedt]

*draws large pentagram on the ground*

*begins chanting*

Um, chugga, um, chugga, um, chugga...

[Onyx Jaguar]

Karstedt wrote...

*draws large pentagram on the ground*
*begins chanting*
Um, chugga, um, chugga, um, chugga...

This has disappointed my thoughts

um, chugga, um, cugga, um, chugga...

[AngryFrozenWater]

@Payne by name:

Thanks for taking the time to passing your thoughts to us. I agree with most of what you said. Still, I think the game was good enough to play it several times. It seems that you did that too. Anyway... Others have mentioned similar experiences as well. Let's hope BioWare gets the message.

[Payne by name]

AngryFrozenWater - Thanks for the thanks and fingers crossed that Bioware take a little of what others have said on board.



On a side note, I have only played it the once but it was a long 50-60 hours spread over about 6 weeks.