217 réponses à ce sujet

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Qwepir wrote...

Mordin doesn't really have more dialogue, he just has different excuses for not wanting to talk.

Bingo. Its part of his job as main comic relief. I found his dialogue number to be pretty much the same as say, Jacob or Grunt or Samara.

[JeanLuc761]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

JeanLuc761 wrote...

Sounds like you and I played entirely different games

I won't begrudge you for your opinion (as much as I disagree) but I would like to remark on one point.  Anyone who thinks there was more dialogue per character in ME1 is looking through rose-tinted nostalgia glasses.  Period. Ashley and Liara had maybe...four conversations with you on the ship for the entire game.  Mass Effect 2 runs from anywhere between 4 (Garrus and Tali...**** your calibrations Garrus) to 8+ (Love you too Mordin).  That's not even including the loyalty mission which...really if you didn't think those where character driven then I honestly have no idea what to say.

Anyone who thinks the bold comment is true is flat out incorrect. Period.

Mordin only ever gave me 4-5 conversations, and he isnt a romance, so he relies on that content.

Ive seen the romances for Tali and Miranda, and it consists of two dialogues of "are you sure" (ME1 was guilty of this too) and then one more. Theres a pre-loyalty mission dialogue, but besides that, the ME2 dialogue all felt incredibly weak and artificial. I dont think Bioware could cope with that many squadmates.

I still disagree with you on the amount of dialogue; I'll have to go back and play ME1 again to make sure that I'm not talking out my ass but I distinctly remember that the characters really didn't have all that much to say. 

At any rate, as for the dialogue feeling "weak and artifical..." well again, it's your opinion and it's one that I respectfully have to say I feel the complete opposite of.

[MassAffected]

JeanLuc761 wrote...

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

In ME1 there was more dialogue to them, and they didnt snub you if you chose not to romance them. Half of the ME2 squad has next to no content because you cant/wont romance them.

Add to that that the dialogues themselves were crap, and the romanes ridiculously brief, Id say on the whole you go to ME1 for quality, and ME2 for quantity, and crappy combat oriented loyalty missions people try and pass off as "character driven". Yup, thats right, I was really getting to grips with a character popping out of cover shooting enemies.

The squad in ME2 sucked IMO, and most are the worst characters Bioware has ever done. Hope to see a much better showing in ME3, particularly with returning ME1 crew. Its pretty much the dealbreaker for me, after a maximum of 2 squadmates out of 11 so far only impressed me in ME2. The rest sucked.

Sounds like you and I played entirely different games

I won't begrudge you for your opinion (as much as I disagree) but I would like to remark on one point.  Anyone who thinks there was more dialogue per character in ME1 is looking through rose-tinted nostalgia glasses.  Period.  Ashley and Liara had maybe...four conversations with you on the ship for the entire game.  Mass Effect 2 runs from anywhere between 4 (Garrus and Tali...**** your calibrations Garrus) to 8+ (Love you too Mordin).  That's not even including the loyalty mission which...really if you didn't think those where character driven then I honestly have no idea what to say.

Very well put sir!

[Lemonwizard]

ME2 focused too much on quantity and not enough on quality, in my opinion. Pretty much all of the characters were good ideas (except for maybe Jacob, he's pretty generic, and Zaeed is a stock character if I ever saw one), none of them were fleshed out as much as I'd have liked.





The biggest problem is all of the romance options have frustratingly little dialogue for players who are not romancing them. But every character could use more conversations. If you ask me, they shouldn't be bothering nearly as much with getting slightly more noteworthy actors for relatively insignificant roles (Kal'Reegar, anyone?) and focus on giving our squadmates more conversations. Fewer squad mates with more development would be preferable.



I thought many of the squad conversations themselves in ME2 were better than the conversations you had on the Normandy in ME1 (Tali had more dialogue as an interactive codex entry on Quarian history than as a person, it seemed like), but their dialogue was much better interspersed. They had something new to say after every mission and I think removing the option to get squadmate thoughts about the current area was a huge mistake.



Oh, it also ticked me off that you have to either let the Normandy crew die or save N7 missions for the post game if you want to get all of Legion's conversations.

[lastpawn]

jtav wrote...

I've heard several people say that the ME squad was deeper than their ME2 counterparts. Could someone explain this to me? My Xbox went RROD, so I've been replaying ME. You get 4-5 conversations per squadmate, about the same numbers as ME2 (I think the ME2 number may be higher, but I haven't counted). The ME LIs actually seem less developed because they don't have a personal quest. What am I missing. I can understand finding certain characters more likable, but they seem equally fleshed out.

There are a few reasons why people say this. The most legitimate ones are:

1. The fact that you only had 6 characters as your companions over the entire game rather than 12. You're more likely to get close to 6 companions than 12. It is also easier for writers to incorporate 6 characters into a coherent story than 12.

2. In ME1 you got to know your characters through the main plot adventure, rather than through some personalized (loyalty) mission. In ME2 you get to know your teammates primarily through recruitment and loyalty. Some prefer the former, others prefer the latter approach. I'd prefer a mixture of both, personally.

3. Some actually liked ME1 teammates better, period. For example, I find Wrex much more interesting than Grunt. Hell, I prefer Garrus in ME1, he actually talked to John Shepard then.

Modifié par lastpawn, 22 mars 2010 - 11:21 .

[Qwepir]

Garrus and Tali had maybe 2 dialogues non-romance. Holy crap. I want to be able to ask them about what they'd been doing the past two years. I have to say, I don't think people getting introduced to the series through Mass Effect 2 are going to find them very likeable.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

Anyone who thinks the bold comment is true is flat out incorrect. Period.

Mordin only ever gave me 4-5 conversations, and he isnt a romance, so he relies on that content.

Ive seen the romances for Tali and Miranda, and it consists of two dialogues of "are you sure" (ME1 was guilty of this too) and then one more. Theres a pre-loyalty mission dialogue, but besides that, the ME2 dialogue all felt incredibly weak and artificial. I dont think Bioware could cope with that many squadmates.

I must say I certainly loved all the deep, heart-felt discussions I got to have with Tali in ME1...wait, there weren't any. She was a walking text book. Kaidan felt more like a Carth rewrite, but without any of the emotion. If this is your definition of great writing, I feel sorry for you. Compare this to pretty much any dialogue you have with Mordin and ME1 characters pale in comparison (Aside from Wrex who is sexy).

You might want to rethink your last statement. Bioware can- and has- coped with the same number of squad-mates before (not counting ME2 DLC). Kotor had exactly the same number (minus one for T3-M4) and Dragon Age had one less. Conclusion? Play more Bioware games.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 22 mars 2010 - 11:21 .

[Knoll Argonar]

ME2 had the same or more convos with squaddies than in ME1. You have to count the "loyalty" mission.



Really, Tali talks more in her loyalty mission than in almost the entire ME1 game. She's not the only one: Jack, Thane (well, thane actually speaks a lot), Mordin (another one that speaks A LOT)... some "loyalty missions" nearly counted as 2-3 regular ME1 convos.



So yeah, the only problem with ME2 is that the game's too long for the number of convos and little banter it has.



And I really didn't like the system of "go somewhere in the Citadel/Tuchanka/Omega/Illium and click somewhere to get extra opinions from your squaddies and LUCKILY, the other one will join up". That could have been made better.



The way to play ME2 is not doing some random mission and THEN go talk to EVERY character. That way you'll run out of convos very fast. Instead, try to go visit only a few of them everytime. You'll notice that you won't run out of them almost nevah (calibrations uuuurgh).

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

I must say I certainly loved all the deep, heart-felt discussions I got to have with Tali in ME1...wait, there weren't any. She was a walking text book. Kaidan felt more like a Carth rewrite, but without any of the emotion. If this is your definition of great writing, I feel sorry for you. Compare this to pretty much any dialogue you have with Mordin and ME1 characters pale in comparison (Aside from Wrex who is sexy).

A yes, dialogue with Tali. Those we the days, eh? Remember when she would actually converse with Shepard regardless of if he wanted to raid her suit or not?

I feel sorry for you too. Mordin was funny. He was definitely one of the more likeable ME2 squadmates. He is still as forgettable, and an awful reminder of just how ineffectual the ME2 squad are on the main plot. He is just about the only plot sensitive character. Once youve got him, the whole squad just seems interchangeable.

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
And I must say you might want to rethink your last statement. Bioware can- and has- coped with the same number of squad-mates before (not counting ME2 DLC). Kotor had exactly the same number (minus one for T3-M4) and Dragon Age had one less. Conclusion? Play more Bioware games.

Played enough Bioware games to recognise the colossal difference between designing squadmates for KOTOR and for ME. Conclusion? Play more Bioware games a gain a greater understanding of them pal. If you cant wrap your head around the concept of the cinematic nature of the ME2 conversations and how much more expensive they are to do than KOTOR "head bobbing", I cant help you.

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 22 mars 2010 - 11:29 .

[MassAffected]

Knoll Argonar wrote...

ME2 had the same or more convos with squaddies than in ME1. You have to count the "loyalty" mission.

Really, Tali talks more in her loyalty mission than in almost the entire ME1 game. She's not the only one: Jack, Thane (well, thane actually speaks a lot), Mordin (another one that speaks A LOT)... some "loyalty missions" nearly counted as 2-3 regular ME1 convos.

So yeah, the only problem with ME2 is that the game's too long for the number of convos and little banter it has.

And I really didn't like the system of "go somewhere in the Citadel/Tuchanka/Omega/Illium and click somewhere to get extra opinions from your squaddies and LUCKILY, the other one will join up". That could have been made better.

The way to play ME2 is not doing some random mission and THEN go talk to EVERY character. That way you'll run out of convos very fast. Instead, try to go visit only a few of them everytime. You'll notice that you won't run out of them almost nevah (calibrations uuuurgh).

This is actually EXACTLY what I do. I play the main game first and only talk to a few party members after a big mission. That way their convos last me right up to the Suicide Mission. After I beat that, I tackle the side missions.

[Lemonwizard]

The thing I like about Thane is he's the only potential love interest who has a good amount of conversations for male Shepard (or female Shepard romancing somebody else). This is the most glaring flaw of the implementation of the party members from my perspective - no alternate dialogue to give closure to those characters if you're not pursuing them as a love interest or if you're the wrong gender.

[MassAffected]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

I must say I certainly loved all the deep, heart-felt discussions I got to have with Tali in ME1...wait, there weren't any. She was a walking text book. Kaidan felt more like a Carth rewrite, but without any of the emotion. If this is your definition of great writing, I feel sorry for you. Compare this to pretty much any dialogue you have with Mordin and ME1 characters pale in comparison (Aside from Wrex who is sexy).

A yes, dialogue with Tali. Those we the days, eh? Remember when she would actually converse with Shepard regardless of if he wanted to raid her suit or not?

I feel sorry for you too. Mordin was funny. He was definitely one of the more likeable ME2 squadmates. He is still as forgettable, and an awful reminder of just how ineffectual the ME2 squad are on the main plot. He is just about the only plot sensitive character. Once youve got him, the whole squad just seems interchangeable.

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
And I must say you might want to rethink your last statement. Bioware can- and has- coped with the same number of squad-mates before (not counting ME2 DLC). Kotor had exactly the same number (minus one for T3-M4) and Dragon Age had one less. Conclusion? Play more Bioware games.

Played enough Bioware games to recognise the collosal difference between designing squadmates for KOTOR and for ME. Conslusion? Play more Bioware games a gain a greater understanding of them pal.

There seems to be a lot of aggression. Would you answer a question for me? On a scale of 1-10 how much do you HATE ME2?

[Badpie]

JeanLuc761 wrote...

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

JeanLuc761 wrote...

Sounds like you and I played entirely different games

I won't begrudge you for your opinion (as much as I disagree) but I would like to remark on one point.  Anyone who thinks there was more dialogue per character in ME1 is looking through rose-tinted nostalgia glasses.  Period. Ashley and Liara had maybe...four conversations with you on the ship for the entire game.  Mass Effect 2 runs from anywhere between 4 (Garrus and Tali...**** your calibrations Garrus) to 8+ (Love you too Mordin).  That's not even including the loyalty mission which...really if you didn't think those where character driven then I honestly have no idea what to say.

Anyone who thinks the bold comment is true is flat out incorrect. Period.

Mordin only ever gave me 4-5 conversations, and he isnt a romance, so he relies on that content.

Ive seen the romances for Tali and Miranda, and it consists of two dialogues of "are you sure" (ME1 was guilty of this too) and then one more. Theres a pre-loyalty mission dialogue, but besides that, the ME2 dialogue all felt incredibly weak and artificial. I dont think Bioware could cope with that many squadmates.

I still disagree with you on the amount of dialogue; I'll have to go back and play ME1 again to make sure that I'm not talking out my ass but I distinctly remember that the characters really didn't have all that much to say. 

At any rate, as for the dialogue feeling "weak and artifical..." well again, it's your opinion and it's one that I respectfully have to say I feel the complete opposite of.

I think as has been stated it's a question of quality versus quantity.  I haven't counted specifically HOW MANY conversations I had with Ashlely as opposed to Miranda, but the Ashley ones in the end, even if you didn't romance her still left me feeling more fulfilled.

[JeanLuc761]

Badpie wrote...
I think as has been stated it's a question of quality versus quantity.  I haven't counted specifically HOW MANY conversations I had with Ashlely as opposed to Miranda, but the Ashley ones in the end, even if you didn't romance her still left me feeling more fulfilled.

Hmmm...to each their own I suppose.  I personally felt that Ashley as a very shallow and boring character (opinion!) but I suppose it all comes down to interpretation so far as that goes.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

MassAffected wrote...

There seems to be a lot of aggression. Would you answer a question for me? On a scale of 1-10 how much do you HATE ME2?

5.

6 on a bad day. 4 if DLC comes through in the end (so far its sucked).

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 22 mars 2010 - 11:28 .

[Homebound]

DarthCaine wrote...

ME1's squad mates were the most boring characters BioWare has ever made IMO

Except for Wrex, and Garrus and Tali for sure get better in ME2.

[jlb524]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

IccaRa wrote...

Eeeh, I don't know about this. I know that Liara (just mentioning her since she was the last ME1 LI I romanced and thus the freshest in my memory) will stop talking to you if you turn her down. The only other convo she has is the short post-Virmire one. Otherwise you're stuck on "asari mating habits" and "Benezia" forever.

Sorry, there is dialogue with Laira Ive never actually experienced since I chose her as a romance option for Shepard, Ive only heard about it. Something about nightmares.

Yeah, Liara has 2 dialogs after you turn her down.  One where she asks you about the nightmares and another where she talks about Saren and how she feels sorry for him.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

1. A yes, dialogue with Tali. Those we the days, eh? Remember when she would actually converse with Shepard regardless of if he wanted to raid her suit or not?

2. I feel sorry for you too. Mordin was funny. He was definitely one of the more likeable ME2 squadmates. He is still as forgettable, and an awful reminder of just how ineffectual the ME2 squad are on the main plot. He is just about the only plot sensitive character. Once youve got him, the whole squad just seems interchangeable.

1. Dialogue? Holy crap, do you really consider *that* mess dialogue? I really feel bad for anyone attempting to carry a conversation with you. You see, in conversation people don't really enjoy it when you sound like an encyclopedia.

2. "Just as forgettable". Yes, it's not like he changed the entire background on what we thought about the Genophage...Face it dude, you're a hard-core fan boy.

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Played enough Bioware games to recognise the collosal difference between designing squadmates for KOTOR and for ME. Conslusion? Play more Bioware games a gain a greater understanding of them pal.

Having beaten Kotor 17 times, I think I've played quite enough, thank you very much. I do also know how to count, which is why I was able to tally the number of squad members I received, which is more than I can say for you. So in addition to playing more Bioware games, I reccomend some basic courses in mathematics. =)

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 22 mars 2010 - 11:35 .

[jlb524]

Just_mike wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...

ME1's squad mates were the most boring characters BioWare has ever made IMO

Except for Wrex, and Garrus and Tali for sure get better in ME2.

Garrus and Tali are worse in ME2 (well, I never romanced them so that's why).  Garrus in ME2 is a rehash of Garrus in ME2...you either help him with is 'revenge' mission or you don't. 

[MassAffected]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

MassAffected wrote...

There seems to be a lot of aggression. Would you answer a question for me? On a scale of 1-10 how much do you HATE ME2?

5.

6 on a bad day. 4 if DLC comes through in the end (so far its sucked).

Good to know where we stand

[DarthCaine]

Just_mike wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...

ME1's squad mates were the most boring characters BioWare has ever made IMO

Except for Wrex, and Garrus and Tali for sure get better in ME2.

Garrus was my favorite squad mate from ME1

Wrex seemed like a bland boring rip-off of Canderous Ordo

I never really liked Tali (though I don't hate her either), though her character is better in ME2

Modifié par DarthCaine, 22 mars 2010 - 11:38 .

[MassAffected]

JeanLuc761 wrote...

Badpie wrote...
I think as has been stated it's a question of quality versus quantity.  I haven't counted specifically HOW MANY conversations I had with Ashlely as opposed to Miranda, but the Ashley ones in the end, even if you didn't romance her still left me feeling more fulfilled.

Hmmm...to each their own I suppose.  I personally felt that Ashley as a very shallow and boring character (opinion!) but I suppose it all comes down to interpretation so far as that goes.

We seem to share the same opinion of Chief Williams here. I saw her as a hateful and very pessimistic person.

[Knoll Argonar]

MassAffected wrote...

Knoll Argonar wrote...

ME2 had the same or more convos with squaddies than in ME1. You have to count the "loyalty" mission.

Really, Tali talks more in her loyalty mission than in almost the entire ME1 game. She's not the only one: Jack, Thane (well, thane actually speaks a lot), Mordin (another one that speaks A LOT)... some "loyalty missions" nearly counted as 2-3 regular ME1 convos.

So yeah, the only problem with ME2 is that the game's too long for the number of convos and little banter it has.

And I really didn't like the system of "go somewhere in the Citadel/Tuchanka/Omega/Illium and click somewhere to get extra opinions from your squaddies and LUCKILY, the other one will join up". That could have been made better.

The way to play ME2 is not doing some random mission and THEN go talk to EVERY character. That way you'll run out of convos very fast. Instead, try to go visit only a few of them everytime. You'll notice that you won't run out of them almost nevah (calibrations uuuurgh).

This is actually EXACTLY what I do. I play the main game first and only talk to a few party members after a big mission. That way their convos last me right up to the Suicide Mission. After I beat that, I tackle the side missions.

I think that people don't realize that you only got newer convos with your characters (except with Tali and Garrus I think) after a major mission in ME1. That's a nice illusion, because it makes you think people talk  "during all the game" but in the end, that "all the game" is like 3-4 times shorter than ME2.

So yeah, this way I can make every character to have something to say until the game is done (then I go talk to Legion instead).

And, that way, I can ignore Jacob without feeling guilty =D

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

1. Dialogue? Holy crap, do you really consider *that* mess dialogue? I really feel bad for anyone attempting to carry a conversation with you. You see, in conversation people don't really enjoy it when you sound like an encyclopedia.

And I suppose you consider that repeated garbage she spouts in her one non-romance related dialogue and on her loyalty mission as "unforgettable"? Face it dud, youre a hard-core fan boy.

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
2. "Just as forgettable". Yes, it's not like he changed the entire background on what we thought about the Genophage...Face it dude, you're a hard-core fan boy.

Are you joking? Anyone with half a brain had considered Mordins moral ramblings on the genophage at the old forums. People used to debate about its ethical nature in threads. He just whines about it, thats all, and what a burden it is. Christ you are easily amused.

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Having beaten Kotor 17 times, I think I've played quite enough, thank you very much. I do also know how to count, which is why I was able to tally the number of squad members I received, which is more than I can say for you. So in addition to playing more Bioware games, I reccomend some basic courses in mathematics.

Love it. Complete avoidance of the point that shot your argument down. Nice job pal, you just accepted my criticism of ME2 not being able to manage so many squadmates with all those dull and brief conversations. Your crappy KOTOR comparison is done for, and your suggesting maths courses. Arent you a gem.