217 réponses à ce sujet

[bjdbwea]

ME characters were deeper?

In my opinion, yes they were. Granted, you have the loyalty quests in ME 2. But that's all like self-contained short stories. Before and after, there's just not much that the companions have to say, especially if you're not pursuing the romance path. And the romances are also very shallow and superficial in comparison to ME 1: Little depth, no connection to the main story.

Mordin is the big exception, and I suspect he was written early and perhaps by the old writer(s), before the release date was moved forward. If all companions had the amount of depth and interaction that Mordin has, ME 2 would certainly outshine ME 1. As it stands though, it doesn't even come close.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 22 mars 2010 - 11:35 .

[MassAffected]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

1. A yes, dialogue with Tali. Those we the days, eh? Remember when she would actually converse with Shepard regardless of if he wanted to raid her suit or not?

2. I feel sorry for you too. Mordin was funny. He was definitely one of the more likeable ME2 squadmates. He is still as forgettable, and an awful reminder of just how ineffectual the ME2 squad are on the main plot. He is just about the only plot sensitive character. Once youve got him, the whole squad just seems interchangeable.

1. Dialogue? Holy crap, do you really consider *that* mess dialogue? I really feel bad for anyone attempting to carry a conversation with you. You see, in conversation people don't really enjoy it when you sound like an encyclopedia.

2. "Just as forgettable". Yes, it's not like he changed the entire background on what we thought about the Genophage...Face it dude, you're a hard-core fan boy.

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Played enough Bioware games to recognise the collosal difference between designing squadmates for KOTOR and for ME. Conslusion? Play more Bioware games a gain a greater understanding of them pal.

Having beaten Kotor 17 times, I think I've played quite enough, thank you very much. I do also know how to count, which is why I was able to tally the number of squad members I received, which is more than I can say for you. So in addition to playing more Bioware games, I reccomend some basic courses in mathematics.

And I recommend that both of you act more civil and not let good topics dissolve into vindictive arguments.

[Badpie]

I agree that the romantic triggers were more defined in ME2, which I was grateful for because I didn't want to romance anyone.



In ME1 I remember I was trying to romance Ash, but all I did was be NICE to Liara and I got the confrontation scene. My Shepard was all "woah woah!" (arms up in defense)

[lastpawn]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
I must say I certainly loved all the deep, heart-felt discussions I got to have with Tali in ME1...wait, there weren't any. She was a walking text book. Kaidan felt more like a Carth rewrite, but without any of the emotion. If this is your definition of great writing, I feel sorry for you. Compare this to pretty much any dialogue you have with Mordin and ME1 characters pale in comparison (Aside from Wrex who is sexy).

Wait, what are we comparing here?

1. ME1 Tali to ME2 Tali, or...
2. ME1 Tali to ME2 Mordin?

It seems like you're trying to say something about (1) but then you cop out and jump to (2). If you're talking about Normandy chats, Tali had much more to say in ME1 than in ME2, even if you romance her. As for "heartfelt" talks, I don't know what to tell you. I thought her gratitude to Shepard towards the end of ME1 was rather heartfelt.

But then you pull the Mordin card. Uh, duh, all ME1 characters are dull compared to Mordin, he's one of the most interesting and universally-adored characters in an RPG... A good number of professional reviews mention him by name, for god's sake.

[jlb524]

Umanix wrote...

The first game seemed to trigger a romance if Shepard was just being nice to Kaidan, Liara and Ashley. When Liara started saying my Fem!Shep and her had a connection, I was floored because I had no idea what she was talking about (but I'll admit that my Fem!Shep hurred). And when she commented on there being a relationship between Kaidan and my Fem!Shep, again: "WUH?"

 

I have played Mass Effect about 14 times with a female that romanced Liara in everyone and have never had a problem turning Kaidan down within the first or second talk with him.   I only got to the Liara/Kaidan romance confrontation scene once just b/c I was curious about it.  I think the ME1 romance triggers were clear.

I chalk the whole 'Liara thinks you like Kaidan even if you don't' to her having little to no social skills....also her thinking Shepard and her have a connection even if there isn't one.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Umanix wrote...

I think you may have misunderstood Icca's point. I haven't played through Mass Effect 2 as a Dude!Shep yet so I can't officially comment on his LIs in Mass Effect 2, but romance triggers are clearly defined for Fem!Shep LIs (save for Jacob, perhaps...his dialogue tree is a mine-field!). The first game seemed to trigger a romance if Shepard was just being nice to Kaidan, Liara and Ashley. When Liara started saying my Fem!Shep and her had a connection, I was floored because I had no idea what she was talking about (but I'll admit that my Fem!Shep hurred). And when she commented on there being a relationship between Kaidan and my Fem!Shep, again: "WUH?"

The romantic triggers were clearly defined in the second game.

I got her point, and in both games its no different. You are always, if you want to converse with these people, at some stage going to reach an "point of no return". As I said, I had it with all the male LIs in ME2. Unlike in ME1, where I could tell Liara or Ashley I just wanted to be friends, their content led to it as a choke point. After turning them down, that was it. Unless you count the single post suicide mission sentence they offer.

ME2 didnt really handle romances at all differently. It just seemingly said "take it or leave it" when it came to it.

[MassAffected]

Knoll Argonar wrote...

MassAffected wrote...

Knoll Argonar wrote...

ME2 had the same or more convos with squaddies than in ME1. You have to count the "loyalty" mission.

Really, Tali talks more in her loyalty mission than in almost the entire ME1 game. She's not the only one: Jack, Thane (well, thane actually speaks a lot), Mordin (another one that speaks A LOT)... some "loyalty missions" nearly counted as 2-3 regular ME1 convos.

So yeah, the only problem with ME2 is that the game's too long for the number of convos and little banter it has.

And I really didn't like the system of "go somewhere in the Citadel/Tuchanka/Omega/Illium and click somewhere to get extra opinions from your squaddies and LUCKILY, the other one will join up". That could have been made better.

The way to play ME2 is not doing some random mission and THEN go talk to EVERY character. That way you'll run out of convos very fast. Instead, try to go visit only a few of them everytime. You'll notice that you won't run out of them almost nevah (calibrations uuuurgh).

This is actually EXACTLY what I do. I play the main game first and only talk to a few party members after a big mission. That way their convos last me right up to the Suicide Mission. After I beat that, I tackle the side missions.

I think that people don't realize that you only got newer convos with your characters (except with Tali and Garrus I think) after a major mission in ME1. That's a nice illusion, because it makes you think people talk  "during all the game" but in the end, that "all the game" is like 3-4 times shorter than ME2.

So yeah, this way I can make every character to have something to say until the game is done (then I go talk to Legion instead).

And, that way, I can ignore Jacob without feeling guilty =D

A part of me will always feel guilty about Jacob, only because he always seems to die in the last mission...

I also don't activate Legion untill after the mission is complete. Gives me some more interesting stuff to discover after I've "beaten" the game.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

MassAffected wrote...


And I recommend that both of you act more civil and not let good topics dissolve into vindictive arguments.

I recommend that ignore your recommendation, and I continue to defend myself and my criticisms of ME2 from equally angry ME2 fans looking to criticise ME1 and once again, starting the vindictive arguments. Thanks.

[Barquiel]

jlb524 wrote...

I have played Mass Effect about 14 times with a female that romanced Liara in everyone and have never had a problem turning Kaidan down within the first or second talk with him. 

same here!
I had more problems with Jacob (checked my Liara picture after each conversation with him^_^)

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

jlb524 wrote...

I have played Mass Effect about 14 times with a female that romanced Liara in everyone and have never had a problem turning Kaidan down within the first or second talk with him.   I only got to the Liara/Kaidan romance confrontation scene once just b/c I was curious about it.  I think the ME1 romance triggers were clear.

I chalk the whole 'Liara thinks you like Kaidan even if you don't' to her having little to no social skills....also her thinking Shepard and her have a connection even if there isn't one.

Yeah, I remember the good old days where, after turning down Ash, I would get different following content, not "sorry Im busy" snubs. I remember subtle changes in the dialogue reflecting the fact that she had been turned down, like her sis mentioning Kaidan rather than Shep.

[MassAffected]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

MassAffected wrote...


And I recommend that both of you act more civil and not let good topics dissolve into vindictive arguments.

I recommend that ignore your recommendation, and I continue to defend myself and my criticisms of ME2 from equally angry ME2 fans looking to criticise ME1 and once again, starting the vindictive arguments. Thanks.

By all means, forgive me for trying to be level headed...

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Edit: Nevermind. - _ -

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 22 mars 2010 - 11:45 .

[Knoll Argonar]

MassAffected wrote...

Knoll Argonar wrote...

MassAffected wrote...

Knoll Argonar wrote...

ME2 had the same or more convos with squaddies than in ME1. You have to count the "loyalty" mission.

Really, Tali talks more in her loyalty mission than in almost the entire ME1 game. She's not the only one: Jack, Thane (well, thane actually speaks a lot), Mordin (another one that speaks A LOT)... some "loyalty missions" nearly counted as 2-3 regular ME1 convos.

So yeah, the only problem with ME2 is that the game's too long for the number of convos and little banter it has.

And I really didn't like the system of "go somewhere in the Citadel/Tuchanka/Omega/Illium and click somewhere to get extra opinions from your squaddies and LUCKILY, the other one will join up". That could have been made better.

The way to play ME2 is not doing some random mission and THEN go talk to EVERY character. That way you'll run out of convos very fast. Instead, try to go visit only a few of them everytime. You'll notice that you won't run out of them almost nevah (calibrations uuuurgh).

This is actually EXACTLY what I do. I play the main game first and only talk to a few party members after a big mission. That way their convos last me right up to the Suicide Mission. After I beat that, I tackle the side missions.

I think that people don't realize that you only got newer convos with your characters (except with Tali and Garrus I think) after a major mission in ME1. That's a nice illusion, because it makes you think people talk  "during all the game" but in the end, that "all the game" is like 3-4 times shorter than ME2.

So yeah, this way I can make every character to have something to say until the game is done (then I go talk to Legion instead).

And, that way, I can ignore Jacob without feeling guilty =D

A part of me will always feel guilty about Jacob, only because he always seems to die in the last mission...

I also don't activate Legion untill after the mission is complete. Gives me some more interesting stuff to discover after I've "beaten" the game.

"Jacob, you wanted it so, go to the vents, Tali's a little sick right know for... personal matters. Errrrmmmm.... Jack, yeah, you're awesome, really, you lead the Second Team =D"

To be fair, I save him because he's just like THAT dude that goes with a group in a bar, pays the beers, doesn't flirt with anyone and goes home alone.

And I want to see that xFDD

[MassAffected]

Knoll Argonar wrote...

MassAffected wrote...

Knoll Argonar wrote...

MassAffected wrote...

Knoll Argonar wrote...

ME2 had the same or more convos with squaddies than in ME1. You have to count the "loyalty" mission.

Really, Tali talks more in her loyalty mission than in almost the entire ME1 game. She's not the only one: Jack, Thane (well, thane actually speaks a lot), Mordin (another one that speaks A LOT)... some "loyalty missions" nearly counted as 2-3 regular ME1 convos.

So yeah, the only problem with ME2 is that the game's too long for the number of convos and little banter it has.

And I really didn't like the system of "go somewhere in the Citadel/Tuchanka/Omega/Illium and click somewhere to get extra opinions from your squaddies and LUCKILY, the other one will join up". That could have been made better.

The way to play ME2 is not doing some random mission and THEN go talk to EVERY character. That way you'll run out of convos very fast. Instead, try to go visit only a few of them everytime. You'll notice that you won't run out of them almost nevah (calibrations uuuurgh).

This is actually EXACTLY what I do. I play the main game first and only talk to a few party members after a big mission. That way their convos last me right up to the Suicide Mission. After I beat that, I tackle the side missions.

I think that people don't realize that you only got newer convos with your characters (except with Tali and Garrus I think) after a major mission in ME1. That's a nice illusion, because it makes you think people talk  "during all the game" but in the end, that "all the game" is like 3-4 times shorter than ME2.

So yeah, this way I can make every character to have something to say until the game is done (then I go talk to Legion instead).

And, that way, I can ignore Jacob without feeling guilty =D

A part of me will always feel guilty about Jacob, only because he always seems to die in the last mission...

I also don't activate Legion untill after the mission is complete. Gives me some more interesting stuff to discover after I've "beaten" the game.

"Jacob, you wanted it so, go to the vents, Tali's a little sick right know for... personal matters. Errrrmmmm.... Jack, yeah, you're awesome, really, you lead the Second Team =D"

To be fair, I save him because he's just like THAT dude that goes with a group in a bar, pays the beers, doesn't flirt with anyone and goes home alone.

And I want to see that xFDD

I tend to let Miranda kill him by not being strong enough to hold the biotic barrier in place, that way I get her all to myself and cannot be implicated in his untimely demise.

[MassAffected]

Anyway, I've gotten too far OT. To attempt and get this thread back on track, I believe (in my opinion) that ME2 characters were deeper and more engaging because of their interesting and revealing loyalty missions.

[Jax Sparrow]

jtav wrote... I've heard several people say that the ME squad was deeper than their ME2 counterparts. Could someone explain this to me? My Xbox went RROD, so I've been replaying ME. You get 4-5 conversations per squadmate, about the same numbers as ME2 (I think the ME2 number may be higher, but I haven't counted). The ME LIs actually seem less developed because they don't have a personal quest. What am I missing. I can understand finding certain characters more likable, but they seem equally fleshed out.

What the fr4k have you been smoking?  Noveria was Liara's personal quest and main mission all rolled into one.

As for the depth thing... hmmm maybe it was the party banter in the citadel elevators.  The way the ship crew reacted to the new squidies.  Each character seemed to react to more than just Shepard's decisions.  They seemed to react to each other as much as Shepard and your choices.  By this I am suggesting this was absent in ME2.  And that kinda is the definition of depth: multiple axises/variables.  Sure the quantity of 1-1 was less but what 1-1 was there was higher quality, I think.  *shrugs* that's just my opinion, but hey, you asked.  

Modifié par Jax Sparrow, 22 mars 2010 - 11:52 .

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

MassAffected wrote...

By all means, forgive me for trying
to be level headed...

If you were level headed, you should have seen the distinct pattern of "I criticise ME2" followed by "Some bitter fanboy takes offense".

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Hey, some people really like to flirt. It's occasionally happened to me before that I've encountered them. Perhaps you had a better attitude, they would do the same with you as well.

Yeah, Im sure with a mature attitude like that, youre a real ladies man. I mean, why wouldnt you brag on a forum about it? What could be more indicative of your social standing than that? You certainly are a character. I bet folks just cant get enough of you, eh?

You even bothering to make a coherent arguement anymore, or just looking to toss the jibes that MassAffected whines at me for?

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
I'm certain. That's why Wrex in ME1 flips out at Saren's cure. He's not saying "This will save my people." He's really saying "That bastard! How dare he throw our population out of wack." And that's why I shot Wrex. Oh wait...

I think youll find there is enough in ME1 alone to suggest that Sarens cure was bs, and was no way to save the krogan. Regardless this whole "Mordin brings like, totally a whole new spin to the genophage" is nonsense. He just gives it a personal voice, and a brief one at that. But still, it was enough to make me like him despite that.

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Oh, I get your point. "ME2 fails spectacularly in every way possible." I just find infuriating you so utterly enjoyable. Does it hurt that Bioware didn't make the game to your exact specifications? Shall I get you a tissue? How about a hug? Many people can hate the game and come off as mature, respectable gamers- you just aren't one of them. So why would I debate with you seriously?

Tch, and now youve resorted to a strawman. Wow. Maths lessons, flirt with a girl, and now "YOU BE HATOR OF ME2".

I have some strong criticisms of ME2. Evidently too strong for kiddies like you, who need to defend the game for some reason. I guess I feel sorry for you. If you think ME2 is that good, shouldnt you be playing it? Not trying in vain to defend it from indefinsible points and make standard internet troll insults? Contrary to your own inflated views, you arent infuriating me, youre boring me. You remind me of a poster called SurfaceBeneath. He follows the same pattern as you. Self obsessed, immature forum troll and fanboy out to defend ME2s honour.

Weird combination I think.

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 22 mars 2010 - 11:56 .

[Knoll Argonar]

MassAffected wrote...

Anyway, I've gotten too far OT. To attempt and get this thread back on track, I believe (in my opinion) that ME2 characters were deeper and more engaging because of their interesting and revealing loyalty missions.

OT again, yeah, I agree.

I find better to have people actually "solving" their problems (although it's you actually who does it for them, most of the time -Thane's an exception-) than people talking about "problems".

[fortunesque]

Barquiel wrote...

I think there are too many squadmates in ME2.

I would always prefer: less characters in ME3, but
- more (friendship!) dialogue...(female warden/Morrigan was well done)
- more party banters

So much this.

They said that they increased the dialogue amount by 30%, but then they doubled the amount of squadmates.

I feel like I don't know the ME2 squadmates as well. The loyalty quests weren't all that enriching, imo. I mean, they were nice, but what did you do for the majority of the time in them? Shoot or run around.

And if you don't romance someone, they just shut down on you.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Aww, and here I was trying to be all non-confrontational. = (

[MassAffected]

MassAffected wrote...

By all means, forgive me for trying
to be level headed...

If you were level headed, you should have seen the distinct pattern of "I criticise ME2" followed by "Some bitter fanboy takes offense".

Modifié par MassAffected, 22 mars 2010 - 11:57 .

[cyless12]

Tyreal42a wrote...

The party banter on the elevators and being able to talk to them for 2-3 comments in most major areas really helped.

The meetings after major missions with everyone involved rather than just Jacob and Miranda also helped. I thought they chimed in during conversations more often as well.

agreed:D

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Things havent gotten off topic, its just the main points of why many consider the ME1 squad as vastly superior have been clearly nailed down. Granted there has been some crying about it, but not enough to change it evidently.

[Knoll Argonar]

fortunesque wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

I think there are too many squadmates in ME2.

I would always prefer: less characters in ME3, but
- more (friendship!) dialogue...(female warden/Morrigan was well done)
- more party banters

So much this.

They said that they increased the dialogue amount by 30%, but then they doubled the amount of squadmates.

I feel like I don't know the ME2 squadmates as well. The loyalty quests weren't all that enriching, imo. I mean, they were nice, but what did you do for the majority of the time in them? Shoot or run around.

And if you don't romance someone, they just shut down on you.

Well, consider this:

you don't have to recruit a new team for ME3, so there's no recruitment or loyalty mission. Something has to deal with character development. Why not: more convos and party banter?

Of course, that's all BS if Bioware decides to destroy the Normandy again, but the possibility to have both 10+ characters + more banter than ME1 (which really wasn't that much, really) exists..