217 réponses à ce sujet

[Knoll Argonar]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

Things havent gotten off topic, its just the main points of why many consider the ME1 squad as vastly superior have been clearly nailed down. Granted there has been some crying about it, but not enough to change it evidently.

.... No =/

[JeanLuc761]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

Things havent gotten off topic, its just the main points of why many consider the ME1 squad as vastly superior have been clearly nailed down. Granted there has been some crying about it, but not enough to change it evidently.

Could be that I'm misinterpreting you but what you're saying comes across as "We've laid down our opinions that Mass Effect 1's characters were better and that all who disagree are whiners."

Am I far off the mark here?

[fortunesque]

Knoll Argonar wrote...

fortunesque wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

I think there are too many squadmates in ME2.

I would always prefer: less characters in ME3, but
- more (friendship!) dialogue...(female warden/Morrigan was well done)
- more party banters

So much this.

They said that they increased the dialogue amount by 30%, but then they doubled the amount of squadmates.

I feel like I don't know the ME2 squadmates as well. The loyalty quests weren't all that enriching, imo. I mean, they were nice, but what did you do for the majority of the time in them? Shoot or run around.

And if you don't romance someone, they just shut down on you.

Well, consider this:

you don't have to recruit a new team for ME3, so there's no recruitment or loyalty mission. Something has to deal with character development. Why not: more convos and party banter?

Of course, that's all BS if Bioware decides to destroy the Normandy again, but the possibility to have both 10+ characters + more banter than ME1 (which really wasn't that much, really) exists..

That's why I quoted Barquiel's post

I want Liara and Kaidan back, though. I liked having them in ME1 and missed them in ME2, especially Kaidan.

[Knoll Argonar]

JeanLuc761 wrote...

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

Things havent gotten off topic, its just the main points of why many consider the ME1 squad as vastly superior have been clearly nailed down. Granted there has been some crying about it, but not enough to change it evidently.

Could be that I'm misinterpreting you but what you're saying comes across as "We've laid down our opinions that Mass Effect 1's characters were better and that all who disagree are whiners."

Am I far off the mark here?

..... No

[MassAffected]

JeanLuc761 wrote...

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

Things havent gotten off topic, its just the main points of why many consider the ME1 squad as vastly superior have been clearly nailed down. Granted there has been some crying about it, but not enough to change it evidently.

Could be that I'm misinterpreting you but what you're saying comes across as "We've laid down our opinions that Mass Effect 1's characters were better and that all who disagree are whiners."

Am I far off the mark here?

Nah, I think you pretty much nailed it...seems like I have another person to add to my handy ignore list. You know, the one for folks who can't be reasoned with.

Modifié par MassAffected, 23 mars 2010 - 12:05 .

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

JeanLuc761 wrote...

Could be that I'm misinterpreting you but what you're saying comes across as "We've laid down our opinions that Mass Effect 1's characters were better and that all who disagree are whiners."

Am I far off the mark here?

"Weve laid down our opinions that the ME1 LIs were better and a minority of those who disagree have been whiners" would be more accurate.

Why, would you deny that there are some pretty damn heavy points that go towards tipping the ME1 squad is better? Can you honestly deny that banter in ME2 was inferior? That nearly half the whole squad having nearly no content is a problem?

Thats what Im talking about with that comment.

Edit: Thanks to MassAffected actually, since he reminded me of that ignore function, and Ive christened it with him. Next up its got to be Baladas for sure.

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 23 mars 2010 - 12:07 .

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

Edit: Thanks to MassAffected actually, since he reminded me of that ignore function, and Ive christened it with him. Next up its got to be Baladas for sure.

[JeanLuc761]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

JeanLuc761 wrote...

Could be that I'm misinterpreting you but what you're saying comes across as "We've laid down our opinions that Mass Effect 1's characters were better and that all who disagree are whiners."

Am I far off the mark here?

"Weve laid down our opinions that the ME1 LIs were better and a minority of those who disagree have been whiners" would be more accurate.

1) Why, would you deny that there are some pretty damn heavy points that go towards tipping the ME1 squad is better?
2) Can you honestly deny that banter in ME2 was inferior?
3) That nearly half the whole squad having nearly no content is a problem?

Thats what Im talking about with that comment.

Numbered for easier replies.

1) You make some good points but you don't seem to be giving the ME2 characters a fair shake (the loyalty missions aren't character driven?), nor do you seem to respect the people who think ME2 had better characters. 
2) The banter in ME2 sucked something awful, I wont' deny that at all.
3) I honestly never felt that way.  I felt each character had an interesting story to tell and that all of them (with the exception of Garrus and his f*cking calibrations) had plenty to say.  Then again, I didn't go to talk to them after the end of every single mission/recruit/loyalty quest.  

[Knoll Argonar]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

JeanLuc761 wrote...

Could be that I'm misinterpreting you but what you're saying comes across as "We've laid down our opinions that Mass Effect 1's characters were better and that all who disagree are whiners."

Am I far off the mark here?

"Weve laid down our opinions that the ME1 LIs were better and a minority of those who disagree have been whiners" would be more accurate.

Why, would you deny that there are some pretty damn heavy points that go towards tipping the ME1 squad is better? Can you honestly deny that banter in ME2 was inferior? That nearly half the whole squad having nearly no content is a problem?

Thats what Im talking about with that comment.

Edit: Thanks to MassAffected actually, since he reminded me of that ignore function, and Ive christened it with him. Next up its got to be Baladas for sure.

First: we're talking about deep characters, not banter.

Second: I think that people here already said that ME2 characters have the same if not more dialogue content than ME1 counterparts. 3-5 convos + a loyalty mission. And no, I don't think that a couple of lines during Noveria counts as a fully loyalty mission, when the squaddie IS the protagonist.

EDIT: F*CK MassAffected, you kill Jacob, don't talk to every squadie after every mission and have the same opinion as me. Next thing you're going to tell me is that we actually want the same gal or what?

I think i'll just let you do the job =/

Modifié par Knoll Argonar, 23 mars 2010 - 12:13 .

[DarthCaine]

sooooo, is there anyone that prefers ME2 over ME1 but likes ME1's characters better ?

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

JeanLuc761 wrote...

Numbered for easier replies.

1) You make some good points but you don't seem to be giving the ME2 characters a fair shake (the loyalty missions aren't character driven?), nor do you seem to respect the people who think ME2 had better characters. 

Yes I would. With the exception of Samara and Thane, where not a shot is fired by the player, Id say all are over reliant on combat. And what a coincidence, has there been an abundance of respect towrds me for thinking ME1 had better characters? Of course not, thats why were doing this. I personally dont care if people PREFER the ME2 squad, as I imagine most dont care that prefer the ME1 squad. I just think there are commonly ignored areas where the ME2 squad is simply inferior.

JeanLuc761 wrote...
2) The banter in ME2 sucked something awful, I wont' deny that at all.

Surprise surprise, actually saying that might increase the chances that in ME3, it WONT suck. Thats why Im here, not because I like the sound of a keyboard being used.

JeanLuc761 wrote...
3) I honestly never felt that way.  I felt each character had an interesting story to tell and that all of them (with the exception of Garrus and his f*cking calibrations) had plenty to say.  Then again, I didn't go to talk to them after the end of every single mission/recruit/loyalty quest.  

I felt cheated by Garrus, Tali, Miranda and Jack . Talis was the only loyalty mission out of the three that I liked, and her recruitment was okay I guess, but far too combat heavy. Other than that, I learned nothing new about her.

With Garrus, Miranda and Jack all having combat reliant loyalty missions, I think Im well within my rights to say "No, what little dialogue they had during the mission simply wont cut it".

[jlb524]

DarthCaine wrote...

sooooo, is there anyone that prefers ME2 over ME1 but likes ME1's characters better ?

I do like some improvements made to the combat in ME2.  I still like the ME1 characters better (and the overall story) so I'm gonna have to say I like ME1 better than ME2 since I'm more of a story/characters oriented person.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Knoll Argonar wrote...

First: we're talking about deep characters, not banter.

To which a character is deeper when given banter. BG II proved that I would say.

Knoll Argonar wrote...
Second: I think that people here already said that ME2 characters have the same if not more dialogue content than ME1 counterparts. 3-5 convos + a loyalty mission. And no, I don't think that a couple of lines during Noveria counts as a fully loyalty mission, when the squaddie IS the protagonist.

I dont think a couple of lines during a loyalty mission intersped between near constant combat constitutes a character driven mission either. If Liaras content of Noveria doesnt count, you might as well discount every loyalty mission in the game. Its practically the same.

[Sandeeras]

After reading the majority of page 1 and page 4 of this thread, I think it really comes down to who you liked as a character. I personally disliked Ashley and Kaidan but I know there are people out there who thought they were realistic.



In terms of development, in ME2 after the loyalty missions, I found that the characters changed slightly; they were slightly better explained (if you can call it that). But I guess if you didn't like the character to start with, this change wouldn't do much to make you start liking them.

[jlb524]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

With Garrus, Miranda and Jack all having combat reliant loyalty missions, I think Im well within my rights to say "No, what little dialogue they had during the mission simply wont cut it".

I especially feel Jack's loyalty mission should have been combat-free.  I would have liked to speak with her more about her life in the Cerberus lab.  Alas, they had to throw in random Blood Pack mercs in this supposed 'abandoned lab' just to give more combat.

[Akeashar]

Alas, being the owner of the original 360 version of ME1, I didn't get to hear any of the additional elevator banter they added in for the PC, so the various pairings got 2 or maybe 3 lots of banter and that was about it.

The flags for ME1 aren't simple cut and paste. I was actively trying to get Ashley to like me in one playthrough, but apparently I talked to Liara too much so the confrontation sequence never came about.

As for the Loyalty missions being a lot of running and shooting... well, thats what the ME series is. Its a lot of running and shooting. If you look at the purely optional 'personal' quests in ME1, out of Wrex, Tali and Garrus', the only one that involved any real conversation was Garrus right at the end when you faced off with Dr Saleon.

Wrex was a kill pirates and loot box quest, that you could do at any time without having unlocked anything with him, the same with Tali and the Geth codes, except Tali's was infinitely more painful because you had to do all the Armstrong nebula worlds.

The Loyalty missions in ME2 are world's ahead of that, and the recruitment ones were a lot more enjoyable, with the possible exception of Tali.

I'll leap to the ME1 characters defense, and say that I enjoyed the characters of Ashley, Kaiden and Wrex, and Jacob, Miranda and Grunt don't even come close to them in their writing in my personal opinion. Especially when you get a chance to meet Wrex again, dragging Grunt by the collar. However, Jack, Mordin and Thane were all enjoyable additional characters for me.

[adriano_c]

DarthCaine wrote...

ME1's squad mates were the most boring characters BioWare has ever made IMO

Basically.

I played ME1 for the first time in mid-January (to prepare for ME2), and I honestly can't remember anything relevant about them. Utterly forgettable, in my opinion.

Meanwhile, 10 years after BG2 was released, I'm still able to look back fondly on its characters.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

The loyalty missions are the flimsy crutch used to support the weak main plot in ME2. I should expect they should be better than Wrex, Tali and Garrus personal sidemissions. They werent actually "loyalty missions". Not even Wrexes really, as if I recall correctly you can still persuade him without it.

[Sandeeras]

adriano_c wrote...

I played ME1 for the first time in mid-January (to prepare for ME2), and I honestly can't remember anything relevant about them. Utterly forgettable, in my opinion.

Yeah same with me.  Maybe the fondness for the ME1 characters grew with time, I suppose.

[Knoll Argonar]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

Knoll Argonar wrote...

First: we're talking about deep characters, not banter.

To which a character is deeper when given banter. BG II proved that I would say.

Really, listen to Wrex talking about good fights during elevators is not a really good banter. I say, most JRPG have better dialogues =/

Knoll Argonar wrote...
Second: I think that people here already said that ME2 characters have the same if not more dialogue content than ME1 counterparts. 3-5 convos + a loyalty mission. And no, I don't think that a couple of lines during Noveria counts as a fully loyalty mission, when the squaddie IS the protagonist.

I dont think a couple of lines during a loyalty mission intersped between near constant combat constitutes a character driven mission either. If Liaras content of Noveria doesnt count, you might as well discount every loyalty mission in the game. Its practically the same.

I don't think so. Thane, talking about his life, Mordin about the Genophage, Jack, being fulled by her own mind, Miranda, softening talking about her past, Samara and her daughter (she became more interesting after that mission though), Legion and the Geth dilemma, Tali and the Migrant Fleet... I think there's actually more content there about those characters than Liara in Noveria, really.

Even Garrus, with his actions during his loyalty mission (being very ruthless with that volus, wanting to hurt Harkin if necesary...) says more about himself than during any other convo in ME1.

And I think that's were ME2 wins: characters not only speak about something: they DO something. Mordin goes crazy when he finds that krogan experiments and his student, Tali cries when she finds her father, Samara KILLS her daughter.

That's deeper than Kaidan's past, IMO.

[MassAffected]

Knoll Argonar wrote...

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

Knoll Argonar wrote...

First: we're talking about deep characters, not banter.

To which a character is deeper when given banter. BG II proved that I would say.

Really, listen to Wrex talking about good fights during elevators is not a really good banter. I say, most JRPG have better dialogues =/

Knoll Argonar wrote...
Second: I think that people here already said that ME2 characters have the same if not more dialogue content than ME1 counterparts. 3-5 convos + a loyalty mission. And no, I don't think that a couple of lines during Noveria counts as a fully loyalty mission, when the squaddie IS the protagonist.

I dont think a couple of lines during a loyalty mission intersped between near constant combat constitutes a character driven mission either. If Liaras content of Noveria doesnt count, you might as well discount every loyalty mission in the game. Its practically the same.

I don't think so. Thane, talking about his life, Mordin about the Genophage, Jack, being fulled by her own mind, Miranda, softening talking about her past, Samara and her daughter (she became more interesting after that mission though), Legion and the Geth dilemma, Tali and the Migrant Fleet... I think there's actually more content there about those characters than Liara in Noveria, really.

Even Garrus, with his actions during his loyalty mission (being very ruthless with that volus, wanting to hurt Harkin if necesary...) says more about himself than during any other convo in ME1.

And I think that's were ME2 wins: characters not only speak about something: they DO something. Mordin goes crazy when he finds that krogan experiments and his student, Tali cries when she finds her father, Samara KILLS her daughter.

That's deeper than Kaidan's past, IMO.

I don't usually do this, buuut...QFMFT!!!

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

Tyreal42a wrote...

The party banter on the elevators and being able to talk to them for 2-3 comments in most major areas really helped.

The meetings after major missions with everyone involved rather than just Jacob and Miranda also helped. I thought they chimed in during conversations more often as well.

This is one of my main reasons why the ME1 characters seemed more developed....

They chimed in at random moments a lot as well. The only comments you get out of the ME2 squad mates off the normandy are one little selectable area where they comment. It's too forced. I like hearing things like when Ashley just randomly blurted out on virmire, "nothing like a nice vacation on the beach Blastin Bad guys with ma
Boomstick."

There is none of that in ME2... made the characters seem to have more of a personality.

[MassAffected]

Also, there were loyalty missions in the first game with Dr. Heart and Wrex's family armor...where all you got was a text box for Wrex and a few lines for Garrus. With ME2 you saw a significant change in your companions as well as the struggles within them during the loyalty missions.

[Vinear]

K. I've played them back to back, twice, and am doing so a third time.

So, just to clarify a few arguments:
a. Romances in ME1 are abrupt and can happen without you realizing it. I talked to Ash once about her family, and I still got her and Liara in the confrontation scene. Also, when I turned Ash down in the second playthrough, she never said jack to me after that. Granted, the flirting is more subtle and drawn out, but it is ALL romance. I'll also say that conversations with others were...sparce.
Ex.
You can only talk to Tali about one of three things, and a fourth thing later about her family...a bit.

Wrex has all of two conversations in ship, and one is about his family armor.

Garrus actually has few(if you're male, at least), and they are generally all about c-sec and his decision to leave, which all lead up to affirming his vigilante attitude, not caring, or chastising it. That and his Dr. Saleon quest.

Kaiden, while a male, does provide the most interesting incite into the games story.

And Ash is probably the most recognizable character in relation to real life.

Also, the party does comment more during the mission in ME1, but it has to be very specific characters. Wrex talks a lot, Tali talks a bit, Liara mentions now and then, Garrus barely talks, etc. etc.
I will say the scene with Ash and Kaiden overlooking the citadel was probably one of the best. It did set grounds for a LI with both of them, and provided a good intro.

b. While ME2 may have an abrupt romance, in a way, it does have other options, they are just earlier in the game. For instance, if Ash were in the second game, you could have that conversation about her family and not trigger a romance path with her. It's as simple as that.
I'll also say I found some of the conversations more humorous. EX: Garrus having Reach, and Joker commenting on every mission and party member

c. I will admit that the lack of throwbacks to the first game was disappointing. Especially with Liara. Mostly when bringing along both Tali and Garrus and nothing happens. They really could have tried harder than that. The brevity of the surviving human character is also largely disappointing.

d. Loyalty missions are character building. Garrus, for example, has another challenge with his impulsive vigilante style, the Drell's mission has no shooting at all, Tali's serves to draw her closer to the commander, Mordin's makes him face the genophage, etc etc.
Also note, like said, it is a game, and ME1 and 2 both had a lot of shooting. I'll say the sidequests in ME1 were more annoying because the number of times they repeated hordes of husks. Personally I enjoyed the combat system of ME2, mainly because they did away with the horrible overheating system and actually made an accurate crosshair instead of a circle that each shot may or may not actually hit.

My biggest problem with either game is the lack of difficult decisions. ME1 had more difficult decisions than 2, mainly giving up Kaiden or Ash, and deciding to save the council or leave them to die.

I'd say the ultimate difference between ME1 and 2 with characters, is in ME1 they talk on the field more often, while in ME2 they mostly talk on the ship.

Also note: The increase in number of party members can have a few effects: including picking favorites. There are a lot of characters and not many people are going to want to keep tabs on ALL of them. Each will diverge to their own favorites, which may leave more characters that aren't particularly cared for, but the option is still there.

Modifié par Vinear, 23 mars 2010 - 12:49 .

[jlb524]

Knoll Argonar wrote...


And I think that's were ME2 wins: characters not only speak about something: they DO something. Mordin goes crazy when he finds that krogan experiments and his student, Tali cries when she finds her father, Samara KILLS her daughter.

That's deeper than Kaidan's past, IMO.

This is really only b/c the squad mates are the focus of the ME2 plot.  In ME1, this was not the case.  The plot had a life of it's own separate from the squad.  The ME1 squad was swept up with the events of ME1 along with Shepard. 

In ME2, if feels like every squad mate just received their '15 minutes of fame' and that was it.  'Oh Shepard, I need you help!'  'OK'  "Thanks for your help Shepard....since you don't want to get in my pants GOODBYE!'