217 réponses à ce sujet

[lastpawn]

Badpie wrote...

I mean, like Fort said.  Kaidan didn't bother Shepard with that **** in the first game.   Shepard didn't have to go find Rhana so Kaidan could get "closure."  He didn't have to clear Ashley's granddad's name, etc.

To add...
In my game, Shepard actually killed Liara's mother in front of her... and he didn't have to help her "find herself" later. The amount of drama in ME2 was a bit too much. Like you said, suck it up and deal with it like Shepard does.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Knoll Argonar wrote...

Yeah, that's what I feel to. If ME3 follows what ME2 seemed to obviously start (Geth, Quarian, Krogan, Genophage, Cerberus, Alliance, etc.), ME2 will be considered brilliant as a part of the trilogy.

If Bioware chooses to nuke the Normandy again... then it's just a filler-game.

Let's hope they pull it off. I want my rachni army!

[BaladasDemnevanni]

fortunesque wrote...

If I want to have a satisfying conclusion, then yes, I have to do them all for each character or face the consequences of them being distracted to the point where people will die.

It's still very well possible to have come out with all your characters alive without doing all their loyalty missions.

[Onyx Jaguar]

fortunesque wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

fortunesque wrote...


My point was that the idea that every single squadmate has an earth-shattering, completely distracting problem feels contrived. Cleaning up everyone's problems provides like a false sense of depth.

Because Shepard has to do something for every squadmate, it feels like you're a caretaker and not a peer of these people. It is unfortunate.

You don't have to do those.  This is a game first and they add levels to the game.  Story wise both Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 are quite short if you approach only the plot missions.

If I want to have a satisfying conclusion, then yes, I have to do them all for each character or face the consequences of them being distracted to the point where people will die.

Some would argue that that is the way it should be

[Badpie]

lastpawn wrote...

Badpie wrote...

I mean, like Fort said.  Kaidan didn't bother Shepard with that **** in the first game.   Shepard didn't have to go find Rhana so Kaidan could get "closure."  He didn't have to clear Ashley's granddad's name, etc.

To add...
In my game, Shepard actually killed Liara's mother in front of her... and he didn't have to help her "find herself" later. The amount of drama in ME2 was a bit too much. Like you said, suck it up and deal with it like Shepard does.

Going back to what Fort said earlier about Shepard being a caretaker rather than a peer.  I oftentimes felt like my Shepard was disconnected from things.  Honestly they could have done a lot more to flesh out Shepard's character in ME2.  He was barely reactive to emotional dialogue, seemed to shrug off the whole "oh I'm working for Cerberus now" thing, etc.  I would have liked for someone to ask Shepard how he was feeling and if everything was all right.  You get this once or twice with Kelly, but not much else. 

The interactions with the other characters felt like monologues from their point of view and not a dialogue with a character of equal depth.  In ME1 it felt more fluid and actually conversational.  I learned about Shepard as much as I learned about Kaidan or Wrex.

Modifié par Badpie, 23 mars 2010 - 01:14 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

Badpie wrote...

lastpawn wrote...

Badpie wrote...

I mean, like Fort said.  Kaidan didn't bother Shepard with that **** in the first game.   Shepard didn't have to go find Rhana so Kaidan could get "closure."  He didn't have to clear Ashley's granddad's name, etc.

To add...
In my game, Shepard actually killed Liara's mother in front of her... and he didn't have to help her "find herself" later. The amount of drama in ME2 was a bit too much. Like you said, suck it up and deal with it like Shepard does.

Going back to what Fort said earlier about Shepard being a caretaker rather than a peer.  I oftentimes felt like my Shepard was disconnected from things.  Honestly they could have done a lot more to flesh out Shepard's character in ME2.  He was barely reactive to emotional dialogue, seemed to shrug off the whole "oh I'm working for Cerberus now" thing, etc.  I would have liked for someone to ask Shepard how he was feeling and if everything was all right.  You get this once or twice with Kelly, but not much else. 

The interactions with the other characters felt like monologues from their point of view and not a dialogue with a character of equal depth.

Thats the case with the first Mass Effect.  Wrex is just there to tell you about the Krogan Plight then his history with his father and then his encounter with Saren.  Tali pretty much the entire time is there to educate you about the Quarians.  While Garrus doesn't have that much to say.

[jlb524]

Knoll Argonar wrote...


That doesn't change the fact that ME2 has deeper characters if you look at it that way, at least IMO. It could have been improved, with more random talk during main hubs, characters moving around the Ship and even socializing a little more, but it has improved what ME1 had.

Really?  ME2 just feels to episodic to me.  Oh, now it's time for Miranda's little episode!  OK, now I finished it and she won't talk to me anymore.  Time for Jacob's!  OK, now I finished it and he won't talk to me anymore.  Time for Jack's!  OK, now I finished it and she won't talk to me anymore.  etc.

Each squad mate has their moment and then I forget they are on the ship.  I honestly don't even go into Miranda's office after she thanks me for helping her on her loyalty mission.  I don't travel all the way down to the pits of engineering to talk to Jack either after her mission.  Hell, I forget they're on my ship.

Interactions with ME1 crew mates were paced better, and I think this adds to the feeling of their depth.  Interactions with them were triggered after big story events, so I was well aware of their existence throughout the entire game.  Granted, each ME2 character has their 'one big moment' and the ME1 characters do not have this, but I forget about the ME2 characters after experiencing their 'one big moment'.

[Commander_David]

depends really on charactor preference. imo ME 2 was longer than ME 1 so there was a lil more room for charactor development but I still prefer Wrex over anyone in ME 2 heh.. well maybe cept Tali

[Knoll Argonar]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

fortunesque wrote...

If I want to have a satisfying conclusion, then yes, I have to do them all for each character or face the consequences of them being distracted to the point where people will die.

It's still very well possible to have come out with all your characters alive without doing all their loyalty missions.

Yeah, just make sure you have at least Tali/Legion, MIranda/Garrus/Jacob and Jack/Samara loyal, send one of those to protect the crew, the others with you so they don't get killed after the baby terminator dies and let Grunt hold the line all by himself (he DOESN'T DIE).

[Knoll Argonar]

jlb524 wrote...

Knoll Argonar wrote...


That doesn't change the fact that ME2 has deeper characters if you look at it that way, at least IMO. It could have been improved, with more random talk during main hubs, characters moving around the Ship and even socializing a little more, but it has improved what ME1 had.

Really?  ME2 just feels to episodic to me.  Oh, now it's time for Miranda's little episode!  OK, now I finished it and she won't talk to me anymore.  Time for Jacob's!  OK, now I finished it and he won't talk to me anymore.  Time for Jack's!  OK, now I finished it and she won't talk to me anymore.  etc.

Each squad mate has their moment and then I forget they are on the ship.  I honestly don't even go into Miranda's office after she thanks me for helping her on her loyalty mission.  I don't travel all the way down to the pits of engineering to talk to Jack either after her mission.  Hell, I forget they're on my ship.

Interactions with ME1 crew mates were paced better, and I think this adds to the feeling of their depth.  Interactions with them were triggered after big story events, so I was well aware of their existence throughout the entire game.  Granted, each ME2 character has their 'one big moment' and the ME1 characters do not have this, but I forget about the ME2 characters after experiencing their 'one big moment'.

Well, you forget about them. I don't

[MassAffected]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Knoll Argonar wrote...

Yeah, that's what I feel to. If ME3 follows what ME2 seemed to obviously start (Geth, Quarian, Krogan, Genophage, Cerberus, Alliance, etc.), ME2 will be considered brilliant as a part of the trilogy.

If Bioware chooses to nuke the Normandy again... then it's just a filler-game.

Let's hope they pull it off. I want my rachni army!

No! My Rachni ARMY!!

[Commander_David]

I dunno the drama in ME 2 is what made me really love it.. maybe im just a sappy gamer lmao

[ratzerman]

Badpie wrote...

Going back to what Fort said earlier about Shepard being a caretaker rather than a peer.  I oftentimes felt like my Shepard was disconnected from things.  Honestly they could have done a lot more to flesh out Shepard's character in ME2. 

I totally agree.  My Shepard walked through ME2 like a ghost, barely registering any emotion,  Even when reunited with her love interes from ME1, there was nothing.... no romantic dialogue, no lingering glances, no nothing.  Just stone faced nothingness.  So you spend the entire game, running around the galaxy, solving everyone else's problems, not once stopping to help yourself.  Unless you want to cheat, which I guess most people did.
<_<

[Knoll Argonar]

MassAffected wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Knoll Argonar wrote...

Yeah, that's what I feel to. If ME3 follows what ME2 seemed to obviously start (Geth, Quarian, Krogan, Genophage, Cerberus, Alliance, etc.), ME2 will be considered brilliant as a part of the trilogy.

If Bioware chooses to nuke the Normandy again... then it's just a filler-game.

Let's hope they pull it off. I want my rachni army!

No! My Rachni ARMY!!

No! Mine! Because I saved the Rachni Queen and then....

and then...

Oh wait *goes to replay Noveria*

[TyDurden13]

Well I actually did everyone the really geeky favor and tracked the number of Normandy dialogue trees each character has. The LIs have an additional one to initiate the romance, should yo shoose to pursue it, and it is always the last possible dialogue tree.

Miranda - 5 (the sixth initiates the romance)
Jacob - 4 (5th initiates romance)
Mordin - 7
Jack - 5 (6th initiates romance)
Garrus - 3 (4th initiates romance)
Grunt - 6
Samara - 6
Thane - 6 (7th initiates romance)
Tali - 4 (5th initiates romance)
Legion - 7

Jacob and MIranda alsoget an extra one if you iniiate dialogue after speaking to the Illusive Man for the first time and before starting the Freedom's Progress mission.

My opinion - I much prefer the ME2 crowd. While I don't hat the ME1 ones or anything, I found 4 out of 6 of them pretty dull and uninteresting. I only found 2 of the ME2 squad a bit boring, and even they had a couple interesting stories to tell.

Modifié par TyDurden13, 23 mars 2010 - 01:24 .

[Badpie]

ratzerman wrote...

Badpie wrote...

Going back to what Fort said earlier about Shepard being a caretaker rather than a peer.  I oftentimes felt like my Shepard was disconnected from things.  Honestly they could have done a lot more to flesh out Shepard's character in ME2. 

I totally agree.  My Shepard walked through ME2 like a ghost, barely registering any emotion,  Even when reunited with her love interes from ME1, there was nothing.... no romantic dialogue, no lingering glances, no nothing.  Just stone faced nothingness.  So you spend the entire game, running around the galaxy, solving everyone else's problems, not once stopping to help yourself.  Unless you want to cheat, which I guess most people did.
<_<

Hey Ash.  Good to see you.

That's IT?!  (I'm with you, Ash)

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Rachni really should have their own support group at this point, I think.

Edit: And thanks, Durden. Honestly, the only character I thought was a tad thin on content was Garrus, but he seemed so much more personable I was able to forgive it.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 23 mars 2010 - 01:25 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

Damn, as much as I like Garrus it seems like his character gets shafted in both games Dialogue wise.

[fortunesque]

The idea that each and every squadmate has some absolutely urgent business is what breaks it for me.

Do I mind helping others? Of course not. But when everyone wants to have Shepard do something for them it gets to be ridiculous. Like Badpie said, it becomes especially ridiculous when nobody stops to say to Shepard, "hey, you died. Are you okay? Do you need to talk?"

The fact that they touted 30% more dialogue and yet there's double the amount of squadmates should tell you something. Why isn't there double the amount of dialogue for double the amount of squadmates? Why aren't there only 30% more squadmates?

Shepard continually gives and gives and doesn't receive back from the ME2 squad unless romancing one of them. It's more like cultivating a garden of npcs. They're pretty to look at, but I feel no attachment.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Fortune, I get what you're saying, but I defer back to my previous point: all your squad mates having long conversations with you in the first place already breaks it. Why do Garrus and Wrex feel the need to explain their lives to me? Same with Kaidan, whom I've already worked with quite a bit- why do we not already know each other? We all happen to be a couple of guys who have a common interest. This is already forced.

Dragon Age tried to account for this with Sten- but he didn't come off as someone who didn't have anything to say, more like someone you just had to work with alot longer so he would say it.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 23 mars 2010 - 01:30 .

[ratzerman]

Badpie wrote...

Hey Ash.  Good to see you.

That's IT?!  (I'm with you, Ash)

"I'll talk to you later, Liara."

WHUH?  Where's the love?

[Chuvvy]

Brogarrus is to busy to hang out and be bros in ME2. He only has two conversations. There is broleejohn but you don't get him till the end.

Modifié par Slidell505, 23 mars 2010 - 01:35 .

[jlb524]

Knoll Argonar wrote...

Well, you forget about them. I don't

Why shouldn't I?  During my first ME2 playthrough, at one point I realized that I haven't spoken with Miranda or Jack in 25 gameplay hours (I did their loyalty missions first).  It's not b/c I didn't want to....they just kept saying the same crap over and over 'I'm busy Commander'...'****** off!  I'm done with you!'.  I eventually gave up and 25 hrs later I have to check to make sure they're still on the ship.

My point, though ME1 and ME2 squad mates may have the same amount of dialog, the ME1 dialogs are spread out and integrated within the game.  This gives it a more organic feel and it seems to lend some more depth to each character.  In ME2, the dialog revolves mostly around an individuals one mission.  When this mission is over, they no longer speak to you. 

[Knoll Argonar]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Rachni really should have their own support group at this point, I think.

Edit: And thanks, Durden. Honestly, the only character I thought was a tad thin on content was Garrus, but he seemed so much more personable I was able to forgive it.

Yeah, thanks Durden.

And agreed, Garrus SHOULD have had some sort of "old times" convo somewhere, and Tali SHOULD have had some sort of "my life after I went back to the flotilla" one as well.

Come to think of it, Garrus didn't mention his father during ME2. He went to Omega and became a Vigilate... really, anything to say?

And Tali. Did she arrived and said: "ey guys, I saved the galaxy! I think things, Shepard makes them possible! Fear me!"  or something? How does "returning to the flotilla" work?

Hmmmmmm... Even though I love them both, they have the less amount of in-ship convos.