7 réponses à ce sujet

[ATKT]

In ME2 one of the things that many felt was broken was a few spots where high persuasion was needed, such as Jack vs. Miranda or Legion vs. Tali. However, it turns out that these conflicts were also game-progress-scaled (i.e. the more missions you have done the more paragon/renegade points are required). This posed a problem for people who were not metagaming at the time and had split their paragon/renegade points so that they never had enough of either.

Basically if you make certain choices that are relatively arbitrary to the situation concerned (I'll use Jack as my example. Her loyalty mission is planting a bomb in an abandoned facility. That's a lot less urgent than picking up Tali from the middle of a geth raiding party. Yet Jack's loyalty becomes exponentially harder to retain if you wait for the game to progress before doing her quest.), and you have made choices based not on the paragon/renegade bar, you were being punished. For example, I have yet to reach the end of Jack's dialogue tree--I'm waiting for the DLC to come out to start a 3rd playthrough where I actually keep her loyalty now that I have done the research and found out how to.

So finally I arrive at my point:

What do you think of a seperate persuade skill, a la ME1?

If you support it, should it be divided into charm/intimidate? If not, why not?

BioWare actually does a great job of listening to their fanbase, so let's discuss so ME3 will be as satisfying a conclusion to the trilogy as possible!

[SVRG]

I feel that neither system that we've seen so far has really worked. I didn't mind spending points in ME1, but having both grant different bonuses and the infinite paragon/renegade glitch ruined it. I don't like the system in this game either because you're encouraged to only take one path. The fact is that one option will be cooler than the other in some situations, but it seems like we're not supposed to deviate from "the plan". If we do, it has the potential to penalize us. I think a morality system more akin to the Fallout 3 karma would be better in ME3: being paragon, renegade, or a mix would each have their own benefits but no path would drastically alter the game.

[Seraphael]

A seperate skill is unnecessary, the skill system in ME2 is sleek and elegant as opposed to the ME1 clutter. I'd like two changes though:

1. Neutral answers should be rewarded with a mix of paragon and renegade points. As it is, the player feels compelled to choose one extreme or another (as only these are rewarded) instead of roleplaying as fit.

2. I'd like to see checks that are a mix of paragon and renegade to make the neutrality path more viable...and to emphasize not everyone is either a saint or a dirt wad.

[Ahglock]

I'd like neither. I'd rather just have all options be open for conversation and the option you pick will have different results, and the effectiveness of each choice depends on the target. Some people might be impossible to charm or intimidate even you have to pick the right one, or maybe not even try to use the influence skill sometimes the ordinary grey choices might be the right choice. Some people react poorly when people try to con/intimidate them, but will respond well if you just explain the situation.



Paragon/Renegade levels should be mostly cosmetic or maybe certain levels get you access to an advanced training and a balanced paragon/renegade would get you access to a different advanced training.

[lastpawn]

Seraphael wrote...
A seperate skill is unnecessary, the skill system in ME2 is sleek and elegant as opposed to the ME1 clutter. I'd like two changes though:
1. Neutral answers should be rewarded with a mix of paragon and renegade points. As it is, the player feels compelled to choose one extreme or another (as only these are rewarded) instead of roleplaying as fit. 

It's a bit odd you compliment the system in ME2 when you didn't notice something basic about it - namely that neutral choices are often rewarded with persuasion points.

This is something I've thought about and I honestly have no good ideas for it. Don't think that BW does, either. Having neutral answers reward morality points was a good step in the right direction in ME2, though.

Modifié par lastpawn, 23 mars 2010 - 01:49 .

[ATKT]

lastpawn wrote...

Seraphael wrote...
A seperate skill is unnecessary, the skill system in ME2 is sleek and elegant as opposed to the ME1 clutter. I'd like two changes though:
1. Neutral answers should be rewarded with a mix of paragon and renegade points. As it is, the player feels compelled to choose one extreme or another (as only these are rewarded) instead of roleplaying as fit. 

It's a bit odd you compliment the system in ME2 when you didn't notice something basic about it - namely that neutral choices are often rewarded with persuasion points.

This is something I've thought about and I honestly have no good ideas for it. Don't think that BW does, either. Having neutral answers reward morality points was a good step in the right direction in ME2, though.

Agreed that having neutral options reward points was good, but still choosing neutral or a mix of paragon and renegade still left you without enough points for those situations where you really need them. Basically, somebody who played the same amount of gameplay, and whose character has built up the same amount of experience, should not be worse at persuading people because of the number of paragon and renegade choices made.

I also agree that paragon/renegade should be more cosmetic, but it takes out a certain element to the RPG-ness of ME if you simply let all of the problems be resolved from the get-go. I think making a persuasion skill that is neither paragon nor renegade solves this problem by having players invest their time in making their character better able to resolve situations, but able to do so without having to resort to either paragon or renegade.

[RandomGuy928]

It is a pity that Para/Ren points are independent of each other.  I would ideally like a system such as KotOR where you had one bar that could swing in either direction.  That way you could, theoretically, be rewarded for staying neutral as this would actually be reflected by your alignment instead of just being weak in Para/Ren.  Para/Ren should be viewed together and your character's alignment should be a combination of his Para/Ren choices.  As it is, the character simply improves in each stat independently of the other meaning that the only way to reward a player is to get more points in one of the two stats.  You cannot reward a player for being neutral unless the bars are analyzed together to create a single alignment bar that reflects your true character.

Keeping with Mass Effect's two bar system, I can imagine something like this happening.

Paragon Check = # Paragon Points
Renegade Check = # Renegade Points
Neutral Check = [(# Para + # Ren) - (higher points - lower points)]

Thus, if you had 75 Paragon and 20 Renegade...
Paragon Check = 75
Renegade Check = 20
Neutral Check = 40

If you had 1 Paragon and 99 Renegade...
Paragon Check = 1
Renegade Check = 99
Neutral Check = 2

If you have 40 Paragon and 40 Renegade
Paragon Check = 40
Renegade Check = 40
Neutral Check = 80

This way your persuasion power would increase as you progress through the game, but you won't be railroaded into one specific path.  Formula can obviously be changed as this was mainly a conceptual example.

[Seraphael]

lastpawn wrote...

Seraphael wrote...
A seperate skill is unnecessary, the skill system in ME2 is sleek and elegant as opposed to the ME1 clutter. I'd like two changes though:
1. Neutral answers should be rewarded with a mix of paragon and renegade points. As it is, the player feels compelled to choose one extreme or another (as only these are rewarded) instead of roleplaying as fit. 

It's a bit odd you compliment the system in ME2 when you didn't notice something basic about it - namely that neutral choices are often rewarded with persuasion points.

This is something I've thought about and I honestly have no good ideas for it. Don't think that BW does, either. Having neutral answers reward morality points was a good step in the right direction in ME2, though.

It's only odd to you because you're not thinking what I said through. I said the players feel compelled to choose one extreme or another. Neutral choices weren't rewarded nearly enough to compete with the pure paragon or renegade options, consequently it wasn't really a viable choice now was it?