141 réponses à ce sujet

[Onyx Jaguar]

^^^You forget about those Mystery Dungeon spinoffs that star FF characters, and Mario Hoops 3 on 3



(Those games sold well)



^___________^

[MerinTB]

Ryzaki wrote...
two charts of Bioware formulas

Those are great!  It's one of the things I actually like about Bioware RPGs - you know what you are getting in structure and story, and you just hope that they do it each time as well as they can with some new twists and such.

Kind of like Final Fantasy fans do, I'm sure.

[GreedIsNoException]

I actually hope they break the formula but keep the annoying fan (Conrad) and the crew mate that dies

[Wrath of Bong]

Fexelea wrote...
What has been done up to date for particular markets is Irrelevant. I think they are both good developing houses that could branch to do different things. Saying they can do only what they have always done and that they could not succeed in other genres would be insulting the talent of all involved.

Not insulting anyone, you're twisting my words. Most times companies developed games to what's familar with them and what sells. SE can develop a first-person shooter for all I care but we are kidding ourselves if it's going to equal the sales of FFXIII.

Fexelea wrote...
So? You are assuming this means they will always give up and not try to improve and generate the towns?.

Bioware released ME2 less than 3 years, while FFXIII was 4 years in development and unable to generate towns. Imagine how long SE will take to develop ME 1 & 2. My point is for SE to duplicate what Bioware did with ME1 & 2, it will be difficult for SE, but you assume SE wouldn't have that difficulty so tthere's explains it all.

Fexelea wrote...
I have explained why I think the hypothetical Mass Effect 2 developed by SE (who I also assumed developed a successful ME1) would sell more than the real ME2. Previous success + multiplatform + Asia sales.

I already explained why I don't think ME2 (as well as ME1) isn't going to be a huge seller on the US compared to Bioware's ME1&2 if SE developed them, on my previous post, so I'm not going to repeat it.

If you want me to accept that ME 1 & 2  developed by SE would somehow sell as much in the US as the real ME series that Bioware made for no good reason. And not only that SE somehow developed ME1 & 2 similarly to what Bioware did, except the only difference is instead of Bioware on the box and on the start of the game, it's has SquareEnix. Ok fine, I accept that, you win.

Modifié par Wrath of Bong, 25 mars 2010 - 03:32 .

[Fexelea]

Wrath of Bong wrote...
Not insulting anyone, you're twisting my words. Most times companies developed games to what's familar with them and what sells. SE can develop a first-person shooter for all I care but we are kidding ourselves if it's going to equal the sales of FFXIII.

We do not know that. Great New IPs have come out of unexpected places before. It is limiting to think toherwise.

Wrath of Bong wrote...
Bioware released ME2 less than 3 years, while FFXIII was 4 years in development and unable to generate towns. Imagine how long SE will take to develop ME 1 & 2. My point is for SE to duplicate what Bioware did with ME1 & 2, it will be difficult for SE, but you assume SE wouldn't have that difficulty so tthere's explains it all.

You do not know what difficulties would or would not be present in a hypothetical scenario, therefore you make assumptions. I made my assumptions, you make yours.

Wrath of Bong wrote...
I already explained why I don't think ME2 (as well as ME1) isn't going to be a huge seller on the US compared to Bioware's ME1&2 if SE developed them, on my previous post, so I'm not going to repeat it.

Irrelevant. Your assumptions are not the same as mine, so we arrive at different conclusions.

Wrath of Bong wrote...
If you want me to accept that ME 1 & 2  developed by SE would somehow sell as much in the US as the real ME series that Bioware made for no good reason. And not only that SE somehow developed ME1 & 2 similarly to what Bioware did, except the only difference is instead of Bioware on the box and on the start of the game, it's has SquareEnix. Ok fine, I accept that, you win.

As I stated earlier, this is an absurd ludicrous scenario as a whole, so I don't see why my proposal is any more in line with that than any other.

[Wrath of Bong]

Fexelea wrote...
We do not know that. Great New IPs have come out of unexpected places before. It is limiting to think toherwise.

Well, I'll be lining up when SE develops a1st-person shooter then, Hope it does not disappoint!

Fexelea wrote...
You do not know what difficulties would or would not be present in a hypothetical scenario, therefore you make assumptions. I made my assumptions, you make yours.

As SE has of right now, the same staff and resources but the difference is they developed the ME series. Toriyama said himself during development of... oh, nevermind, okay, SE makes ME and had more sales than what Bioware would made in the US. There. Period. While, we are at Bungie developed DAO and was more successful than Bioware too.

Fexelea wrote...
As I stated earlier, this is an absurd ludicrous scenario as a whole, so I don't see why my proposal is any more in line with that than any other.

I already said you win. SE developed ME series and was able to duplicate the game e & sales of what Bioware achieved and then some in the US, for some reason that only the all-mighty knows. Maybe they acquired some Bioware progammers or Bioware simply just vanished out of thin air, maybe caused by a time-paradox and Bioware staff all went to SE. Good game, you are the sensei, mighty grasshopper.

Since we are making ludicrous scenario, then a giant meteor came out of nowhere and crushes SquareEnix HQ, therefore, they were unable to make the ME series. Sephiroth!!!

[Fexelea]

Wrath of Bong wrote...

Well, I'll be lining up when SE develops a1st-person shooter then, Hope it does not disappoint!

I hope so too. I don't like bad games.

Wrath of Bong wrote...
As SE has of right now, the same staff and resources but the difference is they developed the ME series. Toriyama said himself during development of... oh, nevermind, okay, SE makes ME and had more sales than what Bioware would made in the US. There. Period. While, we are at Bungie developed DAO and was more successful than Bioware too.

Sure you can make any assumptions you want. They do not affect my original assumption though.

Wrath of Bong wrote...
I already said you win. SE developed ME series and was able to duplicate the game e & sales of what Bioware achieved and then some in the US, for some reason that only the all-mighty knows. Maybe they acquired some Bioware progammers or Bioware simply just vanished out of thin air, maybe caused by a time-paradox and Bioware staff all went to SE. Good game, you are the sensei, mighty grasshopper.

Mighty Grasshoper? Now I *must* Make a Dragon Age character named THAT.

Wrath of Bong wrote...
Since we are making ludicrous scenario, then a giant meteor came out of nowhere and crushes SquareEnix HQ, therefore, they were unable to make the ME series. Sephiroth!!!

That would be a new scenario. As I said earlier, no interest. But I'm sure someone else will pick it up.

[ChaosUndivded]

dirge of cerberus..? ok not quite first person.. but a squeenix shooter all the same

[Onyx Jaguar]

Thats perfect then, if SE made ME 2 it would be Dirge of Cerberus

[Ryzaki]

MerinTB wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
two charts of Bioware formulas

Those are great!  It's one of the things I actually like about Bioware RPGs - you know what you are getting in structure and story, and you just hope that they do it each time as well as they can with some new twists and such.

Kind of like Final Fantasy fans do, I'm sure.

Aye I do. Both forumulas work for their prospective companies.

I wouldn't want to see SE trying to copy BW forumula nor the other way around. Besides I have a bad feeling BW would make the worst JRPG in history.

SE would just turn ME into...*shudders* It would be bad.

[MerinTB]

You know, I'd actually be curious to see Bioware try a Final Fantasy and Square Enix do (let's make it easier on them) a game based on a D&D ruleset.

[Noilly Prat]

Don't forget this one (my favorite): instead of having two or three different options of love interest that we can choose to pursue or not, we would have one needy young girl who is incapable of taking care of herself, and we would be forced into a romance with her ("romance" in this case referring to a simmering pubescent sexual tension that goes nowhere).  Also, we would probably have to save her a couple of times during the game.

And, before someone reads too much into this: I am kidding.  Playing along with the topic, rather than attempting to steer a joke into a serious debate.  I realize that not all Square Enix games follow the above romance formula, but still, this gives a fair idea as to why I generally like BioWare games a lot more than most JRPGs.

Also, I realize that the usual JRPG fan defense against the cliché allegation on these boards is "look at BioWare's games!" and I think this is a fair point.  However, it doesn't excuse the JRPG clichés.  If I posted on a message board for brownie fans talking about how I don't like cookies because they're too sweet, and somebody responded that brownies are also very sweet, they would technically be right, but it doesn't change the fact that cookies are sweet at all.  Some of us are just more willing to tolerate one kind of sweetness over another.

[the_one_54321]

Noilly Prat wrote...
Also, I realize that the usual JRPG fan defense against the cliché allegation on these boards is "look at BioWare's games!" and I think this is a fair point.  However, it doesn't excuse the JRPG clichés.

It does excuse the cliches. The whole point is that "it's cliche" is a weak argument. There's nothing wrong with cliches.

[Noilly Prat]

Well, actually, I think that an excess of clichés should count as a mark against a game.  I say this because, while taking inspiration from other sources (which is inevitable) does not preclude originality, falling back on excessive clichés generally does.  Taking familiar ideas and concepts and doing fresh or original things with them is a good thing; resorting to shameless cliché is not.

Again, I'm not saying that there is no originality in JRPGs, or that BioWare games contain no clichés.  But I think it's perfectly fair to call a game out on its clichés.  And there are always bound to be some storytelling tropes that we personally find more palatable than others.

[Ryzaki]

Noilly Prat wrote...

Well, actually, I think that an excess of clichés should count as a mark against a game.  I say this because, while taking inspiration from other sources (which is inevitable) does not preclude originality, falling back on excessive clichés generally does.  Taking familiar ideas and concepts and doing fresh or original things with them is a good thing; resorting to shameless cliché is not.

Again, I'm not saying that there is no originality in JRPGs, or that BioWare games contain no clichés.  But I think it's perfectly fair to call a game out on its clichés.  And there are always bound to be some storytelling tropes that we personally find more palatable than others.

Great...my whole post got lost...

I was saying that an excess of cliches should not necessarily count as a mark against a game. Only if badly implemented. BW has an excess of cliches however for the most part they are well implemented. That shouldn't count against them or any other company that manages to use cliches well.

Originality for the most part is overrated. Some originality is nice. But just because something is original doesn't mean its good and just because something is cliched doesn't mean it sucks. Judge not by how cliche something is but the game as a whole.

One of my friends strongly dislikes BW games because he feels that he's "constantly play the same game in a different setting with fresher graphics" so to him BW games are extremely cliched and not worth playing. Does that mean BW games suck? To him maybe but certainly not to me.

[RenownedRyan]

1.  The Council would be Mickey Mouse, Minnie Mouse, and Donald Duck
2. Saren and all the Geth would have enormous zippers
3. Shepard would have tall blonde hair and gigantic feet
4. Shepard would wield a weapon that was a gun and a sword
5. Chocobos
6. Sephiroth would appear
7. The Normandy would be renamed the Gummi Ship
8. Saren would be evil for the sake of being evil and destroying all that is good
9. Miranda would be 13 and would love Shepard at first sight
10. The game would be renamed "Disney's Final Kingdom of Massively Effective Hearts: Space Adventure"
11. Leveling up would give powers with no immediate reward
12. You'd play blitzball and only start to lose when "the pros" came in
13. You'd hate your entire party
14. You'd have no decisions
15. There would be 84 sequels
16. It would be like a fantasy version of Jersey Shore
17. Joker would tell cheap puns
18. You'd root for the villains to win
19. The Reapers would reveal that they only really wanted to be loved
20. Shepard would be a troubled youth, battling his inner emotions and his "secret" love for Miranda

[Mercuron]

- There would be an insufferably peppy girl in your party who acted like an airhead and dressed like jailbait.

- 99% of male armor will consist of belts, buckles and zippers. Female armor will either be a very slight variation on a Japanese kimono or a horrifying collusion of J-pop and chainmail bikini.

- Asari strippers won't poledance but will instead spend all of their time in variations of that inane pose with their feet apart and their knees together.

- Shepard will under no circumstances exceed 25 years in apparent age.

- Spoken dialog will only be used to give context to the ellipsis a character is about to employ.

- You will begin romances by jumping in front of any girl character during combat and absorbing the enemy's attack.

- You will advance romances by continuing to jump in front of girl characters during combat and absorbing the enemy's attacks.

- Your heavy weapons fire cutscenes at the enemy which inflict damage based on how long it takes for them to play out.

- The underwear of any female characters will have the same level of attention as the rest of their texture, as SE knows it is inevitable that you will position the camera to look up their skirt as soon as the opportunity presents itself.

- There will be only three races in the universe: human, moogle and furry.

[fairandbalancedfan]

How many stupid Final Fantasy threads have I seen pop up ? Seriously, it seems the game is really love'em or hate'em sort of games.

[the_one_54321]

fairandbalancedfan wrote...
Seriously, it seems the game is really love'em or hate'em sort of games.

That's about right.
The problem is the sentiment "I hate them, therefore you must hate them as well, or you're a [instert derogatory term here]."
And this leads to the constant ire and arguments.

[MightySword]

you're forgetting that we're in the middle of a genre war. Human are amazing creatures ... sometime in a bad way.

[the_one_54321]

MightySword wrote...
you're forgetting that we're in the middle of a genre war. Human are amazing creatures ... sometime in a bad way.

I act purely and exclusively in self defense.

[MerinTB]

fairandbalancedfan wrote...

How many stupid Final Fantasy threads have I seen pop up ? Seriously, it seems the game is really love'em or hate'em sort of games.

It's that competitive mindset I've been commenting on a lot lately.

The "us vs. them" mentallity, where everything has to be broken down to sides and one side must be absolutely wrong and horrible for the other side to be right.

Some Bioware fans feel the need to show how much they love their games by bashing the "competition."
Then JRPG fans bash Bioware games in return as a means of defending the JRPGs.

If you're a Republican, all Democrats must be evil.
If you're a Vikings fan you must hate the Packers.
If you're Christian the atheists must be stopped!
If you like Baldur's Gate 2 then Final Fantasy is crap!
If you think Jedi are awesome then Vulcans must suck!

It's very tired and destructive.

[UBER GEEKZILLA]

yep ya either love ff games or hate them



I HATE THEM, if you ask me the whole reason shooter games are dominateing is becasue games like ff give rpgs a bad name..seriously its like one day the guys at square enix just said "HEY lets try to make the gayest **** possible"

man there sure did succed at that..and the 3d ff games prove it...the 2d ones were actully quite good

[Fexelea]

MerinTB wrote...

fairandbalancedfan wrote...

How many stupid Final Fantasy threads have I seen pop up ? Seriously, it seems the game is really love'em or hate'em sort of games.

It's that competitive mindset I've been commenting on a lot lately.

The "us vs. them" mentallity, where everything has to be broken down to sides and one side must be absolutely wrong and horrible for the other side to be right.

Some Bioware fans feel the need to show how much they love their games by bashing the "competition."
Then JRPG fans bash Bioware games in return as a means of defending the JRPGs.

If you're a Republican, all Democrats must be evil.
If you're a Vikings fan you must hate the Packers.
If you're Christian the atheists must be stopped!
If you like Baldur's Gate 2 then Final Fantasy is crap!
If you think Jedi are awesome then Vulcans must suck!

It's very tired and destructive.

QFT