108 réponses à ce sujet

[Platypus92]

Anyone think that not putting the vigil music in when you meet Liara is symbolic of how she really isn't the same person you knew from the first game? I mean she's had the most significant change in personality out of any character. Just a thought.

[jlb524]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

Couldn't the whole "She needs to focus on the Reaper threat" argument be aplied to Ashley, Kaidan, Wrex, Anderson et al?

Maybe Wrex but It's not clear whether it can be applied to the Alliance peeps.  Anderson is trying to convice the Alliance and the Council of the Reaper threat and for all we know, Ashley or Kaidan may be doing the same.

Ashley/Kaidan don't want to join you just because you are working for Cerberus to bring down the Collectors whom they (rightfully) do not trust.

[Badpie]

I think all three of them, Liara, Ash and Kaidan have a lot more story to tell and a lot that Shepard didn't know about in ME2. None of them are "the same person" by their own admittance. I'm sensing that part of the reason none of them joined with Shepard is that all shoulder some great responsibility we haven't learned of yet.

[Xaijin]

jlb524 wrote...

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

Couldn't the whole "She needs to focus on the Reaper threat" argument be aplied to Ashley, Kaidan, Wrex, Anderson et al?

Maybe Wrex but It's not clear whether it can be applied to the Alliance peeps.  Anderson is trying to convice the Alliance and the Council of the Reaper threat and for all we know, Ashley or Kaidan may be doing the same.

Ashley/Kaidan don't want to join you just because you are working for Cerberus to bring down the Collectors whom they (rightfully) do not trust.

Wrex clearly knows there's a threat and is UNIFYING the Krogan, you don't need a clearer sign than focused Krogan to know something is up. Wrex has his end covered, and Anderson may have sent Hackett to do recon as well as victory laps.

[Goodwood]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

Couldn't the whole "She needs to focus on the Reaper threat" argument be aplied to Ashley, Kaidan, Wrex, Anderson et al? I mean, they all saw and heard what Vigil said on Ilos too, except for Anderson who throughly believes in the Reaper threat anyway. It's just that they have their own things to do, Wrex feels it's his responsibility to reunite the krogan, Anderson has his duties to the Council. Liara is slightly different, in that she's suffered alot of emotional pain and guilt in the two years Shepard has been gone, and struggling to come to terms with it she sees the Shadow Broker as a convenient outlet for all her emotional pain. And it's not as if it's a "petty vendetta" either, Liara flat out states that one of the main reasons she's persuing him is because of his ties to the Collectors, and by extension the Reapers. At least she's doing smething constructive.

Plus, y'know, she actually does say in the game that she wishes she could come with you and help you out. It's just that her current character and story arc dictates that Shepard can't emotionally comfort and console her there and then, and free her up to join the squad. In a way, Liara is just missing a recruitment mission in ME2. If her problems could be resolved in half an hour like the rest, then she'd join up with you. As it stands, BW need that reason to keep her off the squad, which is why they've written her this Shadow Broker story arc.

Quoted for truth.

As painful as it was to see Liara in such a state, the fact that the situation evoked such pain is itself a credit. I really hope that BioWare keeps this thread alive, either through a post-suicide mission expansion (this would be too big for a DLC, IMHO), or in the beginning of ME3.

Here's an idea: after Shepard gives the Illusive Man the finger, she helps Liara take down the Shadow Broker. Once that is done, the two incorporate the remnants of the Shadow Broker's network into Liara's own operations, and then start up their own anti-Reaper organization whose purpose is to spread the truth about the coming invasion and prepare the galaxy to fight against it. There is precedent for this in other meta-fiction; in the New Jedi Order series of Star Wars books, the trilogy heroes set up their own network within what is left of the New Republic after the fall of Coruscant. The same sort of theme runs through later series within the Star Wars EU.

[scmadsen]

Wrex is doing what he has to do, which is reunite the Krogan and build them up again. For a Krogan, Wrex is very smart. He knows the Reapers are real, he knows Shepard is going to need an army. He's doing what he can to help. He also cares for his people and wants to see them not all die out. Also, Krogan leave their dead to lay where they are, to let their bones be exposed. He wouldn't come find Shepard, he respects Shepard just like he would any honored Krogan that fall in battle.

Anderson is on the Council now, he has a duty, and he's not the kind of officer to just drop that and go off chasing the Collectors. He's the only voice of reason on the Council and he knows that. His place is there, helping Shepard from being totally shut out, or worse. I wouldn't put it past the Council to call Shepard a rogue agent.

The Alliance and Council both pretty much leave Shepard out to dry. They didn't recover the Normandy or your body, and now they have covered everything up.

Two years...alot can happen. For all we know, Ashley/Kaiden are now Specters. I'm sure Anderson would push for that. And who better to become the second Human Specter. I can understand, they don't trust Cerberus and all. But they should trust Shepard. You'd think there would be a friendship there that would allow them to have some faith in Shepard.

Garrus, what's so great about him again? I don't see it. He whines alot in the first game, and then sits around and sulks in the second, before you come along and save his ass. Ok, so he is a good sniper and all. That's kind of cool. But he needs to grow up. The galaxy is a crappy place. Those running things are inept, get over it. He tries to do something about it. But really, just taking down some two bit thugs on a backwater station...aim a little higher Garrus.

Tali is sweet and all, and I love her to death. But she doesn't go out of her way to find your body and lay you to rest. I'm sure she took it hard though, but she is no Liara. She misses you and I think feels grief, but she goes back to her people and fleet, and buries herself in her work. Liara gives up her life to try and makes things right. Tali doesn't.

Liara. She loves you like crazy. It is very odd to me, that everyone doesn't see that by now. Even if she wasn't your LI, she still loves you, more then anyone else does, and I think, she cares for you more then anything, even herself. She doesn't have the "longview" when it comes to Shepard, like other Asari. She couldn't let you go. That's not normal for Asari. She clearly loves you very much.

She tracked down your body when no one else would. If only to lay you to rest. She didn't know TIM was going to rebuild you. And when she did find out, she gave you to him, because she couldn't let you go. She feels, that you will hate her for it, but she would rather you hate her, then leave you dead. She made a deal with the devil, and I think it eats at her every day.

I believe that there are many reasons why she is doing what she is:

For one, it's not cheap to bring Shepard back to life. And she is making credits by being an Information Broker. The station logs by Willson back up that perhaps she is helping to fund the project. Also she says she has debts to pay.

Secondly, yes, she is ****** off, The Shadow Broker stole your body and was going to sell it like just some object to the Collectors, for who knows what. The horrors that come to mind for what they might want Shepard for, aren't pretty. She wants revenge, is that really so bad. The Collectors did blow up the Normandy after all, and kill the love of her life in the first place.

Third, Liara is a smart girl. She on her own could figure out that the Collectors are linked to the Reapers.

Forth, she knows you're coming back. She isn't going to just sit around for however long it takes and feel sad and sorry. She has to do something, if only to keep from dying of grief. So she does something helpful. She knows the Shadow Broker and the Collectors are linked. By taking down the Shadow Broker, she can learn more about the Collectors, and help Shepard.

She puts up this front, this mask, that isn't her, and does what has to be done. Not for herself. But for Shepard. Liara has been thru so much. She lost her mother, her love/er, she made a deal with some of the worst people in the galaxy, and suffers everyday on the slim hope of seeing Shepard again, when in her mind, Shepard is going to hate her and want nothing to do with her anymore.

Also, Liara isn't some helpless little girl people like to make her out to be. She's a bad ass biotic and very smart. She is her mother's daughter, she just has to grow up a little quickly. She doesn't break down and lose it, she goes on, and does what has to be done.

We don't fully know why she shuts Shepard down. Or why Shepard sits in her office like a moron and doesn't try to comfort her. That's the only thing that is missing. And until we find out. That's how BioWare failed in the Liara reunion.

Modifié par scmadsen, 23 mars 2010 - 08:40 .

[Lemonwizard]

I'd say that the same thing can not be as easily applied to Wrex or Ashley/Kaidan.





Wrex could be justified on the grounds that Shepard's going to need an army at his back when the reapers come, and there aren't many fighting forces more powerful than a unified army of krogans.





Ashley/Kaidan, though it's never quite spelled out for us, are vaguely implied to be doing something covert for Anderson that may very well be an operation for finding out info about the reapers or finding some way to sabotage their plans. What they were doing was left pretty vague.





Anderson I think is clearly justified, because SOMEBODY has to convince the rest of the council to get their rears in gear. He can do more good with his political power than he could joining Shepard on the Normandy.

[HomicidialFrog]

scmadsen wrote...

*huge post.*

*applauds*

[scmadsen]

Thanks. lol

[Xaijin]

Cools story bro buuut:

It's pretty clear she's both out of her element and PTSD'ed.

What does Garrus have to with Liara? Transference issues much?

Modifié par Xaijin, 23 mars 2010 - 09:53 .

[Yeled]

scmadsen wrote...

-snip-

We don't fully know why she shuts Shepard down. Or why Shepard sits in her office like a moron and doesn't try to comfort her. That's the only thing that is missing. And until we find out. That's how BioWare failed in the Liara reunion.

I agree with much of what you said in your long but very well thought out post.  But those two missing things are quite blatent and make the entire thing crumble, no matter how much the rest of it makes sense and how great Liara was in doing the things she did.

First, we don't know why she shuts Shep down, but that assumes there is missing information we don't yet have.  I like your explanation that she is paying in part for Shep's return.  But right now, with what we do know, there is really no justification for how she reacts to the fact that you are going to go and take the collectors head on and might not be coming back.  As you said she has given her entire life for Shep's return.  And now that Shep is back Liara barely acknowledges her.  She is obsessed with what she was doing before Shepard returned?    Her first priority should be Shepard herself, no matter how important the other stuff is.  And if there is information missing it really doesn't make sense for Liara to not try to justify her actions or risk alienating Shepard even more.  She's already afraid of what Shep is going to think of her.

I suppose the things she cannot talk about could have to do with her debts to Cerberus, and that would explain why she can't say more.  But to leave it as it is didn't make sense.

And then there is Shep's  reaction, which was one of the most frustrating things I've sat through.  I don't think I have to get into that.  That was just terrible.

[Goodwood]

scmadsen wrote...

Thanks. lol

Your post was very well thought-out and reasoned. Applause here as well.

[hwf]

Maybe Liara thinks acquiring the vastest intelligence network in the galaxy is the best way that she can contribute to finding a way to take down or halt the Reapers.
What folks here on the forum have dug up so far (from hidden dialogue up to a potential Liara DLC) seems to indicate just that motivation for her.

Just that she can be visited at any time while not being able to interact is chafing - it feels to me that a Horizon type encounter with her (and seperation) might've been better. Hope this remark doesn't get me lynched

[Kaiser Shepard]

I don't dislike what they did to Liara, but I don't really like where they're going with the Shadow Broker: work against Sovereign's agent but with Harbinger's?

The only reason for this sudden shift in loyalty seems to be that by Redemption/Mass 2, the Shadow Broker knows pretty much everything we know about the Reapers and decides to pull a Saren. Such a powerful individual has no need for more credits, but might just side with the ones he fears.

[scmadsen]

Xaijin wrote...

Cools story bro buuut:

It's pretty clear she's both out of her element and PTSD'ed.

What does Garrus have to with Liara? Transference issues much?

I broke down all the old squadmates, since others in the topic had posted about them. Why should I leave Garrus out of it?

[Xaijin]

I don't know, because it has jack to do with Liara?

[scmadsen]

@ Goodwood: I like your idea about Shepard and Liara setting up their own little "order" to deal with the coming Reapers. They both know the galaxy has turned its' back on them. TIM can not be trusted, and I think Liara fully expects Shepard to take him down soon.



It's kind of romantic to think of Shepard and Liara building up and taking over the galaxy to run things together, getting ready to fight the coming war side by side.

[scmadsen]

@ Yeled: I can't explain that, I can guess, and I have. But I won't. I'll wait and see what the forth comic brings, and what they do in a Liara DLC. The whole scene feels forced, and while I now understand all the logic behind things, we do have more questions that need to be dealt with. It's up to BioWare to fix their mistakes.

[scmadsen]

Xaijin wrote...

I don't know, because it has jack to do with Liara?

It has everything to do with Liara. It shows that none of your old team, came after you. Or seems to currently care about the Reapers or is overtly working to do anything about. No one, but Liara that is. She trusts and loves Shepard, and she takes up the work, as best she can, that Shepard started.

Liara isn't Shepard, she isn't a Specter. She doesn't have a crew or a ship, she's alone. She's a scientist a researcher. One Biotic, no matter how skilled, can't take on what is coming. She uses the skills she has, and tries to do something, rather then forget about or move on.

Liara knows the Shadow Broker and Collectors are connected, and by proxy, the Shadow Broker and Reapers...if anyone knows anything that can be useful, it's the Shadow Broker. By taking him down, she learns of the Collectors, who also know about the Reapers.

Give the girl a break. She's been thru hell and back, and has kept it together enough to do something useful for the mission, for Shepard. She doesn't give up, or forget about the Reapers.

[InvaderErl]

Its hardly their fault. The freaking NORMANDY disintegrated. Joker escaped in the last pod and Shepard didn't. It wasn't as if there was any sort of feasible chance he had survived and thus a failing on their party somehow.

Its only a testament to Liara's ability to obsess over something that Shep survived.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 23 mars 2010 - 10:49 .

[Schroing]

HER VOICE

HER VOICE IS WHY PEOPLE HATE HER

IT'S THE ONLY ****ING REASON