98 réponses à ce sujet

[javierabegazo]

phordicus wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

BW are saying 90-minute full side-mission. if zaeed's is any indication $7 for the equivalent is an absolute bargain. get over yourself "no ship dialogue" as if that's the most important thing...

you should know by now those game time estimates are hugely overblown.  RtO and WK were both 1/3 to 1/2 of their advertised times.  zaeed's mission takes less than 30 minutes.  you think kasumi's is much more?  remember, they're charging you 15% of the full game's cost for at best 6% more content.  if you're going to be a shill, at least be an informed one.

I hate seeing posts like this. Just because you CAN blow through Zaeed's mission in 30 minutes doesn't mean you should.

When I first go through  any level in any game, This is my first time, so I take my time!
I walk through, poking all around the level, admiring or criticizing anything I might see, reading every and all new codex entries, and then of course listening to every single bit of dialogue, never rushing anything. And to top off all that, I play on a difficulty that's challenging for me, that difficulty being Insanity. Doing all of these things, and rembering to simply enjoy the game and not play with some silly stop watch next to me to try and evaluate the Time/Fun factor and Zaeed's Mission takes well over 30 min.

[javierabegazo]

And Phordicus, the next time you post in this forum with an insult dangling off of your post, I'll give you one more warning before I temporarily ban you. I've already seen multiple posts in this single thread of you antagonizing posters with petty insults such as "if you're going to be a shill, at least be an informed one."

The forum rules are not polite suggestions. They are rules and are just that.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Burdokva wrote...

Whether or not it's free is irrelevant when it comes to criticism - I don't want to get into the debate if EA is offering free DLC or aiming at used games - but even if it was completely free of charge, any and all content should and must be criticized. Why?

Because it helps the devs to improve the game. Criticism isn't the slew of threads "I HATE this - that", "FAIL bla-bla-bla" that seem to pop out in the forum every day, that's whining and nonconstructive.

For example, I'm rather concerned with the need to remap my custom key-bindings for the Firewalker DLC to work properly. Doesn't that undermine the entire concept of free control scheme on the PC? But I'll wait and see once it's released and even if I have negative comments, I would post them appropriately and politely.

I completely agree. In another thread the idea popped up that if a DLC is free then you cannot critisize it. We heard that argument many times before. I tried to make people realize that it's not free. That would at least take away that argument. Ah well.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 23 mars 2010 - 01:30 .

[javierabegazo]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Burdokva wrote...

Whether or not it's free is irrelevant when it comes to criticism - I don't want to get into the debate if EA is offering free DLC or aiming at used games - but even if it was completely free of charge, any and all content should and must be criticized. Why?

Because it helps the devs to improve the game. Criticism isn't the slew of threads "I HATE this - that", "FAIL bla-bla-bla" that seem to pop out in the forum every day, that's whining and nonconstructive.

For example, I'm rather concerned with the need to remap my custom key-bindings for the Firewalker DLC to work properly. Doesn't that undermine the entire concept of free control scheme on the PC? But I'll wait and see once it's released and even if I have negative comments, I would post them appropriately and politely.

I completely agree. In another thread the idea popped up that if a DLC is free then you cannot critisize it. We heard that argument meany times before. I tried to make people realize that it's not free. That would at least take away that argument. Ah well.

I also agree, feedback is immensely important. It can prevent mistakes or more importantly, prevent mistakes from happening again. I personally hope that there is enough of a respectful, but public enough outcry against a 2$ reskin of 3 character DLC's.  
2$ for a reskin of 1/4 of the characters in the game
7$ for a new character.
Personally, I don't mind the Kasumi price tag but the 2$ price tag for a reskin is way out of line and I think it's good that BioWare has the sense and decency to check with it's game forum for reactions, whether on paid content or not.

[atheelogos]

javierabegazo wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

i think the easiest conclusion for the free early dlc is simply to keep people interested in

No. According to EA it is to get a bit of the 2 billion dollar market of second hand games. That's seems to be their intention. It's of course nice to give away some stuff to your customers. But that's an illusion. Apparently you fell for it.

God forbid the game developer get more money for it's games. I don't see anything wrong with this at all really. Retailers like Gamestop rip gamers off like hell with their trade in values especially when you put them next to the prices they slap on the used games when they go back on the shelf.

This was a genius plan and I personally am not going to care one bit if the Game Developer gets more revenue than the Game Retailer

"Retailers like Gamestop rip gamers off like hell with their trade in
values especially when you put them next to the prices they slap on the
used games when they go back on the shelf." Hell yeah! Good word man!

[Squallypo]

lols im not paying for those $2 reskin and sadly not getting kasumi either =/

[ThePatriot101]

I want to add some points to this discussion:

Is Mass Effect 2 an incomplete product? No. The game is fully functional and still worth the great reviews its gotten by itself.

Does that mean Mass Effect 2 wouldn't benefit from DLC? No. It gives the developers the flexibility to try out other things to enhance the ME2 experience that they either couldn't fit into the game or that they deemed as extra without having to put in the time and effort to design, market, and produce a stereotypical "expansion" pack.

Do you need to buy DLC? No. You don't have to buy it. If you got the CN card like with the Collector's Edition well then congrats you got some DLC right off the bat. If you don't have the CN card but don't want to get it that's fine too.

Let's face it, there is no such thing as a free lunch. As much as EA and Bioware are trying to make more money they need it if they want to make more stuff for the people who do buy the DLC or even future projects. But they are not all blinded by greed. If they charged a high price for DLC not as many people would buy it. They would just attract the die-hard fans or innovator crowds who like to get the new stuff right off the bat regardless of cost and few of the other groups that are more mindful of the cost.

And certainly the CN deal with used games may detract some people. But given the fact that them buying it used brings about a lower cost still makes it a bargain once the used price and CN price drop below the new price. And that's if people even want to download DLC.

(As a note, to whoever stated it, releasing the Zaeed DLC, Terminus, Inferno, and Collector's Armor & Rifle at the start basically proves they were working on it before the game was shipped)

Modifié par ThePatriot101, 23 mars 2010 - 02:40 .

[yoomazir]

javierabegazo wrote...
I also agree, feedback is immensely important. It can prevent mistakes or more importantly, prevent mistakes from happening again. I personally hope that there is enough of a respectful, but public enough outcry against a 2$ reskin of 3 character DLC's.  
2$ for a reskin of 1/4 of the characters in the game
7$ for a new character.
Personally, I don't mind the Kasumi price tag but the 2$ price tag for a reskin is way out of line and I think it's good that BioWare has the sense and decency to check with it's game forum for reactions, whether on paid content or not.

Of all the people here I would have never thought that these words would come from you.
I suppose we'll see a new moderator soon enough...nah just joking







(I hope....)

[bluewolv1970]

Whether or not the dlc is free is as much a matter of perception as anything. If you feel that you got your money's worth and then some out of ME2 - then the dlc is Free because you did not feel the game was lacking in content relative to dollars to begin with. If nothing else you got the game 3 months earlier than you would have and that in and of itself is a bonus...now paying 2.00 for outfits is another story but kasumi seems like it is worth it as you get a 90 minute quest, a playable character for the rest of the game, a new smg, new casual outfit (which you can fight in during the kasumi mission ala james bond), teasers of earth, new loyalty power, and a bar on the normandy.

[bjdbwea]

The Cerberus network access is not free, it is only bundled with any new game, but it is part of the purchase. If you buy the game second-hand, you have to pay. That means that indeed the content has to be held to the same standards as paid content. And as far as BioWare is concerned, it IS on the same standard as their paid content. That unfortunately means that quality and quantity are rather low. BdtS was somewhat small too, but it was very well done. Every DLC since then (I haven't bought any), has been even smaller in scope and, more importantly, lower in quality.

Now, if this scheme is indeed supposed to prevent people from buying a game second-hand, I can only say this: I could easily live without any of the content the Cerberus network has provided so far, so for me there would be no incentive not to buy the game second-hand.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 23 mars 2010 - 04:37 .

[zazei]

I don't see any real problem with them offering additional stuff to people that buy the retail game and offer to sell those products to second-hand buyers if they wish them. I just hope it won't turn into a practice where part of the full game is closed to those that buy it second-hand.

I mean the idea of companies trying to prevent games from being resold is something I don't like at all. It's not really about gamestores making a profit without the company gaining anything but more about customers selling things they no longer wish to keep. If I for some reason buy something I don't like much I think it's my right to sell it for a cheaper price to someone that does.

This doesn't have to mean we sell them back to a game store either. Here at least there are just as many that choose to sell their used games over the internet directly to other people without any middle men and I don't think any company should have the right to tell us we are not allowed to do that. I can't imagine any movie or music company telling their customers they are wrong for selling old dvds or music albums.

Modifié par zazei, 23 mars 2010 - 05:30 .

[Ahglock]

javierabegazo wrote...

phordicus wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

BW are saying 90-minute full side-mission. if zaeed's is any indication $7 for the equivalent is an absolute bargain. get over yourself "no ship dialogue" as if that's the most important thing...

you should know by now those game time estimates are hugely overblown.  RtO and WK were both 1/3 to 1/2 of their advertised times.  zaeed's mission takes less than 30 minutes.  you think kasumi's is much more?  remember, they're charging you 15% of the full game's cost for at best 6% more content.  if you're going to be a shill, at least be an informed one.

I hate seeing posts like this. Just because you CAN blow through Zaeed's mission in 30 minutes doesn't mean you should.

When I first go through  any level in any game, This is my first time, so I take my time!
I walk through, poking all around the level, admiring or criticizing anything I might see, reading every and all new codex entries, and then of course listening to every single bit of dialogue, never rushing anything. And to top off all that, I play on a difficulty that's challenging for me, that difficulty being Insanity. Doing all of these things, and rembering to simply enjoy the game and not play with some silly stop watch next to me to try and evaluate the Time/Fun factor and Zaeed's Mission takes well over 30 min.

I didn't blow through Zeed's mission and it did not take me 30 minutes.  It has a few fights and you walk down a hallway, there really isn't anything to explore.  And there sin't that muh to ogle in the level.  You get one real choice which may or may not have an effect at the end of the mission.  Sure in any game I can take more time, but spending 60 minutes looking at the flowers does not make a 30 minute level a 90 minute level. 

[DrowNoble]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Its free for those who bought the game new. Otherwise you pay for the CN

...Sound about right?

*Also because most of it is free I guess they can track how many times its downloaded, but since its free that wouldn't be accurate so complaining about what is good and what isn't vocally would be the course that would be best.  Many complain about the heavy weapons and such. 

*Also it can be viewed as a DRM scheme in order to keep consumers from pirating or buying second hand

I've read somewhere, can't remember the link, that EA was trying to "crack down" on used game sales at places like Gamestop.  Basically if someone buys a used copy of ME2, EA makes no money off it.  The Cerberus Network was a way for EA to still make money off a used sale basically.  They got the money from the new sale, then make another $15 off each additional used sale as the person is forced to join the Network to get any DLC.

What bothers me is this $15 network will still have DLC that has to be paid for.  I dropped $50 on the PC version, I do not want to be nickel and dimed after the fact like in DAO.  This is not an mmo requiring a subscription.

Seems to me that EA is milking the ME Cash Cow for all she's worth.

[AngryFrozenWater]

bjdbwea wrote...

The Cerberus network access is not free, it is only bundled with any new game, but it is part of the purchase. If you buy the game second-hand, you have to pay. That means that indeed the content has to be held to the same standards as paid content. And as far as BioWare is concerned, it IS on the same standard as their paid content. That unfortunately means that quality and quantity are rather low. BdtS was somewhat small too, but it was very well done. Every DLC since then (I haven't bought any), has been even smaller in scope and, more importantly, lower in quality.

Now, if this scheme is indeed supposed to prevent people from buying a game second-hand, I can only say this: I could easily live without any of the content the Cerberus network has provided so far, so for me there would be no incentive not to buy the game second-hand.

They gain nothing if these DLCs have a low quality. It's intended to convince people to buy the CN and maybe convince them to buy the new game if the second hand price plus CN price is close enough. But they admit that it's a market and the CN may eat a bit from that 2 billion dollar second hand game market pie. Maybe enough to make some profit in 2010 (after 3 years of losses). At least that's what EA says about it.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 23 mars 2010 - 06:56 .

[Dethateer]

Not really, if the content of the CN (by which I mean, the HH) is required for future high-quality (and payed for) missions, quality is more or less irrelevant, unfortunately.

[casedawgz]

javierabegazo wrote...

phordicus wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

BW are saying 90-minute full side-mission. if zaeed's is any indication $7 for the equivalent is an absolute bargain. get over yourself "no ship dialogue" as if that's the most important thing...

you should know by now those game time estimates are hugely overblown.  RtO and WK were both 1/3 to 1/2 of their advertised times.  zaeed's mission takes less than 30 minutes.  you think kasumi's is much more?  remember, they're charging you 15% of the full game's cost for at best 6% more content.  if you're going to be a shill, at least be an informed one.

I hate seeing posts like this. Just because you CAN blow through Zaeed's mission in 30 minutes doesn't mean you should.

When I first go through  any level in any game, This is my first time, so I take my time!
I walk through, poking all around the level, admiring or criticizing anything I might see, reading every and all new codex entries, and then of course listening to every single bit of dialogue, never rushing anything. And to top off all that, I play on a difficulty that's challenging for me, that difficulty being Insanity. Doing all of these things, and rembering to simply enjoy the game and not play with some silly stop watch next to me to try and evaluate the Time/Fun factor and Zaeed's Mission takes well over 30 min.

Amen, Javier. Zaeed's mission is absolutely gripping on Insanity. Fighting across that last room, with the suspended fuel tanks overhead, on my soldier is one of my fondest moments of gunplay in ME2. It's not always about the length of something. It's about the experience.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Dethateer wrote...

Not really, if the content of the CN (by which I mean, the HH) is required for future high-quality (and payed for) missions, quality is more or less irrelevant, unfortunately.

They really dropped the ball on the HH. That's for sure.

[JKoopman]

@ OP

Good luck, buddy. I've been trying to convince the apologists that the Cerberus Network isn't free for a while now and it never seems to sink in no matter how slowly you spell it out.

The Cerberus Network (and by extension all it's "free" content) are included with the overall ME2 package. They're incentives to buy the game new. Meaning you paid for it when you purchased your retail copy (unless you purchased it used in which case you actually paid for the Network). The DLC provided by the Cerberus Network is no more a "gift" than is the radio that came with your car or the windows that came with your house.

Furthermore, let's say I create a game that has a driving section. I'm unhappy with the quality of that driving section so I pull it from the game and release it a few months later as a download pack at no charge. Is it now above criticism for it's obvious deficiencies simply because it didn't ship with the core product? If you're a BioWare apologist, your answer would be yes. Most rational people however would see that as an obvious cop-out.

[Dethateer]

AFW and Koopman, If I may quote Altaïr Ibn-La'Ahad (again), "If there is one thing I know for certain, it is that men do not learn by being told. Instead they must be shown. They must make the connections themselves. If I say unto a man, be kind, be tolerant, be of an open mind - these words will wither and die long before they've affected change. It would be a waste."



Who ever said videogames aren't educational?

[AngryFrozenWater]

Dethateer wrote...

AFW and Koopman, If I may quote Altaïr Ibn-La'Ahad (again), "If there is one thing I know for certain, it is that men do not learn by being told. Instead they must be shown. They must make the connections themselves. If I say unto a man, be kind, be tolerant, be of an open mind - these words will wither and die long before they've affected change. It would be a waste."

Who ever said videogames aren't educational?

Hehe. I know exactly what you mean. Still, if nobody shows that there is another route than "don't look a gift horse in the mouth", because there is no gift horse to begin with then they won't even be curious. Although I think that your approach is more effective, I don't have much choise on a forum. I am not trying to change the world, though.

Maybe the "success" of the HH helps.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 23 mars 2010 - 08:17 .

[Dethateer]

Changing a single mind, irl or on the internet, is an impressive feat in itself, considering the species we belong to.

[bombUp]

Hey I found it interesting at least.



I did ponder this on my own as well.

[StowyMcStowstow]

Interesting, I thought Kasumi would actually be a full character that you could talk to. I was actually thinking of buying it, but not anymore. I don't want another Zaeed who does nothing except stand around.



Someone brought up the point that if the Cerberus network wasn't included, would the game still be worth $60? If yes, then the DLC is actually free, and the answer is no, then you paid for the DLC.



I don't mind EA's ten dollar plan, but please for the love of pete release some decent DLC. I just downloaded the Firewalker pack, and if it is crap then it looks like I'll just stop playing Mass Effect until three. And, if the current state of poor quality of both the game (I mean the graphical glitches, the sound glitches, the inclusion of the bare minimum of the RPG elements while including better but generic shooter elements) and it's dlc, both paid and "free" is any indication of the new Bioware/EA trend, I won't be buying Mass Effect 3 either.



Quality DLC = $$$



Garbage DLC, free or otherwise = -$$$ and loss of consumer.



Just like in a DA:A interview, where the BW guy totally avoided the question and rambled about how you can't really put it in hours. Maybe if they wouldn't use BS corporate speak, people might actually know what they're getting. Also, the wording in the firewalker pack on the Cerberus network screen- read it and see if you agree. Just because something sounds badass doesn't mean it is.

[Jebel Krong]

StowyMcStowstow wrote...

Interesting, I thought Kasumi would actually be a full character that you could talk to. I was actually thinking of buying it, but not anymore. I don't want another Zaeed who does nothing except stand around.

*snip*

regardless of the rest of your post (and you're clearly one of *those* anti-me2 people), your point above is ludicrous - you talk to zaeed before recruitment and then do a huge mission with him - how is that disappointing in any way? just because he doesn't have a few lines of interactive dialogue back on the normandy? as opposed to all the other characters who are also mute after a while?

the only point i actually agree with is the quality of the dlc is the most important thing, free or not. crap free is just as bad for the game as crap paid-for content.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 24 mars 2010 - 11:02 .