131 réponses à ce sujet

[LPPrince]

I hate how ME2 forced you to follow one path so you could make sure you got the higher end choices right.



I'd rather there of been a Persuasion skill, with our abilities, and had that affect BOTH Paragon and Renegade.



Paragade. Only Tupari hates the idea.

[Badpie]

Only losers drink Paragade!



Actually I'm totally paragade.

[mcsupersport]

ME1, three reasons to save the Destiny Ascention-

1) 10,000 person crew dreadnought might just come in handy later.

2) Didn't want to leave a cloud of Geth ships behind me while trying to defead an unknown dreadnought.

3) Help the leaders get out alive, but that was less important than first 2.



ME2 three reasons to destroy the base.

1) Didn't think we would be able to maintain control of it once the Reapers start attacking, at an unknown time, which may prevent later destruction of it.

2) Didn't think humans could safely study a Reaper facility or get anything useful before the Reapers took it back, and or indoctrinated everyone involved.

3) Didn't think TIM would use the base in a safe manner, more likely to create Reapers again, thereby causing me to have to fight them twice.

[LPPrince]

mcsupersport wrote...

ME1, three reasons to save the Destiny Ascention-
1) 10,000 person crew dreadnought might just come in handy later.
2) Didn't want to leave a cloud of Geth ships behind me while trying to defead an unknown dreadnought.
3) Help the leaders get out alive, but that was less important than first 2.

ME2 three reasons to destroy the base.
1) Didn't think we would be able to maintain control of it once the Reapers start attacking, at an unknown time, which may prevent later destruction of it.
2) Didn't think humans could safely study a Reaper facility or get anything useful before the Reapers took it back, and or indoctrinated everyone involved.
3) Didn't think TIM would use the base in a safe manner, more likely to create Reapers again, thereby causing me to have to fight them twice.

All good reasons looking at the long term.

[Badpie]

mcsupersport wrote...

ME1, three reasons to save the Destiny Ascention-
1) 10,000 person crew dreadnought might just come in handy later.
2) Didn't want to leave a cloud of Geth ships behind me while trying to defead an unknown dreadnought.
3) Help the leaders get out alive, but that was less important than first 2.

ME2 three reasons to destroy the base.
1) Didn't think we would be able to maintain control of it once the Reapers start attacking, at an unknown time, which may prevent later destruction of it.
2) Didn't think humans could safely study a Reaper facility or get anything useful before the Reapers took it back, and or indoctrinated everyone involved.
3) Didn't think TIM would use the base in a safe manner, more likely to create Reapers again, thereby causing me to have to fight them twice.

This is pretty much my exact reasoning for all of these same decisions.

[LPPrince]

None of the reasons for either side is stupid.



Its just, "Do you want a benefit NOW, or later?"



Hell, my very first playthrough of ME1, I focused on Sovereign.



But later on I missed the Council so I saved them afterwards on later playthroughs.

[The Governator]

If I refuse to consider any arguments but those that agree with mine, then I agree with you. Obviously saving the council is the stupid idea because keeping the galaxy unified is tantamount to relegating humanity to an everlasting and humiliating 'back seat'. Splintering factions so that humanity comes out ahead under the guise of 'being tactical' is the clear choice.



Destroying the base was also short-sighted. Never mind that it could splinter the galaxy by placing a huge chunk of tech into the hands of one of the most xenophobic organizations in Citadel space, keeping the base also provides the conclusion that doing whatever it takes to win is what is important and what keeps humanity strong. So what if the Collectors or the Reapers could wrest control of the base from us, it's still a chance to reverse engineer all that great tech and use it to make Asari, Volus or Turian smoothies which would totally kick the Reapers in their keisters.



Okay, serious thoughts. The council was saved because it was an effort to forge peace and stronger alliances with the other Citadel Races. Opportunely allowing the Council to perish after thousands of years of its existence could be enormously destabilizing in the political theater. Humanity has a reputation for being rash and ambitious. Ambitious people make other people nervous because it often augurs that someone, somewhere is going to be betrayed or ruthlessly cast down in the wake of pursuing those ambitions.



As for saving the base...? Really, there could be as many or more arguments for destroying it as keeping it.



-Repears could have laid a trap (viruses, trojans, indoctrination and so on) as a last resort hoping that hubris would take hold of the invaders (Shepard). It would be tantamount to a Pentium286 operating system attempting to hack and foil EDI. If the tech were that outstanding where is it possible that keeping the base is possible? If it is not, why bother?



-Where is it written that it is the only base? Other Collector hives could come and reclaim it rendering the effort moot.



-If the tech IS that advanced and we were somehow ABLE to learn something from it, would be in time to be useful?



-If it is the only base, then why are the mass relays not enough to study from? I think I read somewhere that mass relays have withstood stellar novas. Seems to me that the Collector base could not have the tech that the relays do. Studying the Omega Relay should be more than enough.



-What could possibly be learned from a goo machine anyway? Shepard has one of their weapons. EDI defeated their computers and, could no doubt have hacked their systems. I just don't see keeping the base as anything more than a power grab by TIM.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Badpie wrote...

But I do agree that the final decisions were very black and white. Why couldn't we keep the base and turn it over to the Alliance for example?

Hmm, I viewed the final choice for ME2 rather differently. I remember how Sovereign was saying that the Reapers strive to force organic species down certain technological paths, to prevent the possibility of them discovering new technology. I felt like by keeping the base, we were once again just repeating the incident with the Mass Relays. Even if we beat the Reapers, I also don't really trust TIM with that thing. He rubs me the wrong way. =p

[ratzerman]

mcsupersport wrote...

ME1, three reasons to save the Destiny Ascention-
1) 10,000 person crew dreadnought might just come in handy later.
2) Didn't want to leave a cloud of Geth ships behind me while trying to defead an unknown dreadnought.
3) Help the leaders get out alive, but that was less important than first 2.

ME2 three reasons to destroy the base.
1) Didn't think we would be able to maintain control of it once the Reapers start attacking, at an unknown time, which may prevent later destruction of it.
2) Didn't think humans could safely study a Reaper facility or get anything useful before the Reapers took it back, and or indoctrinated everyone involved.
3) Didn't think TIM would use the base in a safe manner, more likely to create Reapers again, thereby causing me to have to fight them twice.

Agree, agree, agree, agree, agree, and agree.
Plus, TIM was a total jerk, and I hated every second I spent working for him.  It was great to destroy the base, take his money, ship, and crew, and leave him with nothing.  Let me I can't trust Liara?  F you, buddy!

Modifié par ratzerman, 23 mars 2010 - 06:26 .

[TOBY FLENDERSON]

Why do these threads keep appearing? the paragon options are just that, the good guy/gal options that best exemplify the heroic ideal. You know the choices that you see in most action movies and books. The renegade options exmplify the anti-hreo, like Dexter Morgan. The final renegade options in ME1 was for those who did not wish to have faith in Joker and the alliance and the ME2 choice was for stupid sociopaths.

[Ahglock]

I wish the choices had bigger effects.



For example in ME 1 if you save the council the Reaper should escape, he didn't win because he couldn't summon the rest of the reapers but he escapes.



Screw the council: The concil dies, the reaper dies, losses are fairly light on your side.



Focus on the reaper, the council lives, the reaper dies, but the losses on your side are massive.



And if these effects happened more throughout the game it would be awesome.



Currently the choices sometimes have a minor effect like you let fisk live, um woo you get to speak to him in ME2. But mostly its



Renegade choice, you scare the guy into giving you info.



Paragon choice, you charm the guy into giving you the info.



End result it the same damn thing, you got the info, you just heard different dialogue getting there. Sure you have a choice, but you don't have a consequence.

[The Governator]

ratzerman wrote...

mcsupersport wrote...

ME1, three reasons to save the Destiny Ascention-
1) 10,000 person crew dreadnought might just come in handy later.
2) Didn't want to leave a cloud of Geth ships behind me while trying to defead an unknown dreadnought.
3) Help the leaders get out alive, but that was less important than first 2.

ME2 three reasons to destroy the base.
1) Didn't think we would be able to maintain control of it once the Reapers start attacking, at an unknown time, which may prevent later destruction of it.
2) Didn't think humans could safely study a Reaper facility or get anything useful before the Reapers took it back, and or indoctrinated everyone involved.
3) Didn't think TIM would use the base in a safe manner, more likely to create Reapers again, thereby causing me to have to fight them twice.

Agree, agree, agree, agree, agree, and agree.
Plus, TIM was a total jerk, and I hated every second I spent working for him.  It was great to destroy the base, take his money, ship, and crew, and leave him with nothing.

Badda BING!

[pineappledan]

ahgloc really hits the nail on the head as for what I was thinking. plenty of choices, no consequences. Unfortunately in order to have consequences we would likely have ME 3 be 4 discs to install, one of which being all the paragon backstory info and the other being all the renegade backstory and info, with unique dialogue and plot for each (which would be awesome, actually, just implausible)

I can see how paragon is actually a even MORE long term perspective than renegade, in that it preserves inter-racial relations and weakens Cerberus' hold on power. This route, however, makes the dangerous assumption that the reapers can be ultimately defeated. They can ultimately be defeated, given that its a video game it is going to have a happy ending, like all video games do. I like to suspend beleif for these sort of games, though

Modifié par pineappledan, 23 mars 2010 - 06:42 .

[LPPrince]

If you don't believe you can win, you've already lost.



That line is in the back of every Paragon's mind.

[Badpie]

I think a big difference between paragon and renegade is the aptitude for diplomatic, far reaching conclusions. Renegade doesn't think about how they'll probably need the Rachni's help or they'll probably need the council's support etc. in the future.



Paragon, while I don't think is a kowtowing politically suave way to play is definitely more sensitive to the larger issues as it affects galactic civilization as a whole.



Renegade is more blow up stuff now, fix it later.

[KingusJamus]

I didn't any of the other posts here, but you're not just giving the weapon to the galaxy to use against the Reapers. You're giving it to one man with questionable motives, if there were options to give it to the Council, Alliance or TIM then I would have thought a little harder instead of just blowing it up.

[LPPrince]

Yeah, the Renegade doesn't really care that he has enemies EVERYWHERE.



The Paragon wants everyone to be on one side.

[Ahglock]

mcsupersport wrote...

ME1, three reasons to save the Destiny Ascention-
1) 10,000 person crew dreadnought might just come in handy later.
2) Didn't want to leave a cloud of Geth ships behind me while trying to defead an unknown dreadnought.
3) Help the leaders get out alive, but that was less important than first 2.

.

I don't really disagree with the ME2 points so i took them out.

1) 10,000 person crew dreadnought might just come in handy later.

Sure if you also take out the reaper.  Later means jack and **** if the reaper succeeds and summons his pals.

2) Didn't want to leave a cloud of Geth ships behind me while trying to
defead an unknown dreadnought.

Good tactics to win a battle, not the strategy i'd use to win the war.  storming the beaches of Normandy sucked and people got chewed to hell.  the tactics of the battle sucked and basically were if we zerg rush them enough eventually we will get through.  it was a needed strategy to win the war.  So in the fight against the reaper was your goal to survive the fight with the least casualites or to stop the reaper.  I think the overarching goal was to stop the reaper and your strategy has to focus on that. 

3) Help the leaders get out alive, but that was less important than
first 2.
you can always elect new leaders, these guys were not exactly showing huge ammounts of competence.  i was irritated that you could not choose to try and have a new council that was balanced with even more races than the original, bring in the vlous etc.  but fit he council dies, its human dominated no matter what you only choose udina or anderson. 

In no way am i saying your reaosning is wrong, everyone loooks at things with a different persoective.  i'm just showing another one.

[pineappledan]

mcsupersport wrote...

ME1, three reasons to save the Destiny Ascention-
1) 10,000 person crew dreadnought might just come in handy later.
2) Didn't want to leave a cloud of Geth ships behind me while trying to defead an unknown dreadnought.
3) Help the leaders get out alive, but that was less important than first 2.

ME2 three reasons to destroy the base.
1) Didn't think we would be able to maintain control of it once the Reapers start attacking, at an unknown time, which may prevent later destruction of it.
2) Didn't think humans could safely study a Reaper facility or get anything useful before the Reapers took it back, and or indoctrinated everyone involved.
3) Didn't think TIM would use the base in a safe manner, more likely to create Reapers again, thereby causing me to have to fight them twice.

QFT

Once again, I ask that these decision be evaluated independent of the P/R score attached to them.  I played paragon in ME2 and still saved the base.  I was renegade in ME1 and still saved the rachni.  the points assigned to these weighty decisions are immaterial, especially with respect to the final decision in the game, where points have absolutely no use beyond that point

[sergio71785]

Yeah well, guess who's got an army of Geth, Rachni, and Krogan?  

[LPPrince]

Ahglock wrote...

mcsupersport wrote...

ME1, three reasons to save the Destiny Ascention-
1) 10,000 person crew dreadnought might just come in handy later.
2) Didn't want to leave a cloud of Geth ships behind me while trying to defead an unknown dreadnought.
3) Help the leaders get out alive, but that was less important than first 2.

.

I don't really disagree with the ME2 points so i took them out.

1) 10,000 person crew dreadnought might just come in handy later.

Sure if you also take out the reaper.  Later means jack and **** if the reaper succeeds and summons his pals.

2) Didn't want to leave a cloud of Geth ships behind me while trying to
defead an unknown dreadnought.

Good tactics to win a battle, not the strategy i'd use to win the war.  storming the beaches of Normandy sucked and people got chewed to hell.  the tactics of the battle sucked and basically were if we zerg rush them enough eventually we will get through.  it was a needed strategy to win the war.  So in the fight against the reaper was your goal to survive the fight with the least casualites or to stop the reaper.  I think the overarching goal was to stop the reaper and your strategy has to focus on that. 

3) Help the leaders get out alive, but that was less important than
first 2.
you can always elect new leaders, these guys were not exactly showing huge ammounts of competence.  i was irritated that you could not choose to try and have a new council that was balanced with even more races than the original, bring in the vlous etc.  but fit he council dies, its human dominated no matter what you only choose udina or anderson. 

In no way am i saying your reaosning is wrong, everyone loooks at things with a different persoective.  i'm just showing another one.

Here's my take on your take of his take(lol)-

1. 10,000 lives should not be wasted just for a grudge against three, like some people seem to do. But, not counting that, the biggest ship besides Sovereign would come in handy when attacking him.

2. If the Geth flanked the Alliance forces, it wouldn't matter what they did to Sovereign. We'd lose.

3. The Leaders are well known throughout the Galaxy. You can't just "replace" them. Thats like killing Obama, Biden, and whoever the hell is next in line. Then who takes charge? People don't know this person, they don't care about this person, and they don't know what this person would do, thus leading to chaos. And chaos in the galaxy means the Reapers win.

[Ahglock]

pineappledan wrote...

ahgloc really hits the nail on the head as for what I was thinking. plenty of choices, no consequences. Unfortunately in order to have consequences we would likely have ME 3 be 4 discs to install, one of which being all the paragon backstory info and the other being all the renegade backstory and info, with unique dialogue and plot for each (which would be awesome, actually, just implausible)

I can see how paragon is actually a even MORE long term perspective than renegade, in that it preserves inter-racial relations and weakens Cerberus' hold on power. This route, however, makes the dangerous assumption that the reapers can be ultimately defeated. They can ultimately be defeated, given that its a video game it is going to have a happy ending, like all video games do. I like to suspend beleif for these sort of games, though

I was thinking about it, and would you need that much more?

Take the me 1 choices as I presented.

Save the council, the reaper escaped.  Have 1 additioanl mission to deal with that reaper since he is an advance scout and giving informaiton to the main fleet.

Screw the council, you totally pissed off your allies.  Have a mission where you have to gather support of the allied races.

Neutral option, your fleet is decimated.  have a mission where you have to take over a facility that helps produce ships.  It ws captured by pirates since the allaince fleet was too weak to protect it. 

All it really adds is 3 missions and for the smaller choices its adds 3x the # of sub-missions.  Maybe one extra disk at most. 

[LPPrince]

Ahglock wrote...

pineappledan wrote...

ahgloc really hits the nail on the head as for what I was thinking. plenty of choices, no consequences. Unfortunately in order to have consequences we would likely have ME 3 be 4 discs to install, one of which being all the paragon backstory info and the other being all the renegade backstory and info, with unique dialogue and plot for each (which would be awesome, actually, just implausible)

I can see how paragon is actually a even MORE long term perspective than renegade, in that it preserves inter-racial relations and weakens Cerberus' hold on power. This route, however, makes the dangerous assumption that the reapers can be ultimately defeated. They can ultimately be defeated, given that its a video game it is going to have a happy ending, like all video games do. I like to suspend beleif for these sort of games, though

I was thinking about it, and would you need that much more?

Take the me 1 choices as I presented.

Save the council, the reaper escaped.  Have 1 additioanl mission to deal with that reaper since he is an advance scout and giving informaiton to the main fleet.

Screw the council, you totally pissed off your allies.  Have a mission where you have to gather support of the allied races.

Neutral option, your fleet is decimated.  have a mission where you have to take over a facility that helps produce ships.  It ws captured by pirates since the allaince fleet was too weak to protect it. 

All it really adds is 3 missions and for the smaller choices its adds 3x the # of sub-missions.  Maybe one extra disk at most. 

"One extra disk" means Bioware spends way more money than they need to.

[Ahglock]

LPPrince wrote...


Here's my take on your take of his take(lol)-

1. 10,000 lives should not be wasted just for a grudge against three, like some people seem to do. But, not counting that, the biggest ship besides Sovereign would come in handy when attacking him.

I'm not letting 10,00 people die as a grudge againt 3.  i'm not saving 10,000 people when its risking 5 trillion lives.

LPPrince wrote...
2. If the Geth flanked the Alliance forces, it wouldn't matter what they did to Sovereign. We'd lose.

You'd take heavy losses, but you would not lose.  But from what you knew if the reaper fleet showed up you would lose no matter how many of your focrces survived. 

LPPrince wrote...
3. The Leaders are well known throughout the Galaxy. You can't just "replace" them. Thats like killing Obama, Biden, and whoever the hell is next in line. Then who takes charge? People don't know this person, they don't care about this person, and they don't know what this person would do, thus leading to chaos. And chaos in the galaxy means the Reapers win.

And if it happened America would not fall, we would be hurt but we would elect new people and eventually move on.  if the reapers had shown up, everyone would be dead or indoctrinated slaves. 

lets say 10 bombers loaded with nukes are flying in at america followed by a a squadron of fighters while a group of ships attack the president etc. in air force one.  For whatever reason your group of intrepid pilots are near the area, do you help the president, do you stop the bombers, or do you shoot down the fighters.  I shoot down the bombers even knowing the fighters will kill me and the president.  If I am playing a bioware game where there are no consewquences, I can save the president, take out the fighters and stop the bombers.  But I don't like to play my game sknowing that.