131 réponses à ce sujet

[Raphael diSanto]

Splinter Cell 108 wrote...

No the paragon choices don't make you look like an idiot. If the council can be saved and Sovereign can also be destroyed then why not do it. The same can be said with the president analogy, if you knew that you could do both then why not. .

The argument is that you don't know that you can do both. You have to be confident enough that the forces you're going to have remaining after the fight to save the Destiny Ascension are enough to kill Sovereign.

That might not be the case.

[Sturmwulfe]

mcsupersport wrote...

FredThePhoenix wrote...



Paragon Shepard: I let Elnora go because I trust everyone YAY!

Paragon is naive. Admit it.

Actually that is to find out if people are paying attention and talking to people like they should.  The Volus who gives you the key, Pitney Four, tells you the only way a Eclipse merc earns her uniform is to kill someone, so you know right off the bat, that Elnora is a killer, she is just acting to save her butt.  So while you may not know she killed the Volus earlier, you do know that she is a known killer, and thus worthy of a bullet.

It amazes me that some people didn't draw that connection, since you have to talk to Pitne For. I figure shooting her and shoving the unarmed guy out the window was a matter of the course. Eclipse are scum bag, and I'm not in the habit of leaving any of them behind if they're in the way of my mission.

Besides, Elnora REALLY comes across as a bad actress to be really innocent "I thought it would be cool, but I see it's wrong now! I didn't shoot my gun, the others were watching me! I'll be good, I swear!", not buying it. Just a brat who is trying to save her own hide in the most cowardly way possible, presuably to boast about how the ****** human bought her sob story.

I should charge her family for the thermal clip I wasted on her.

[Big Yam]

Paragon dialogue with renegade interupts is the only way I can seriously go through ME2. Other options seem obtuse.

[RyrineaNara]

Ray Joel Oh wrote...

Peer of the Empire wrote...

OP there are indeed people who think as paragons do and sadly, they have the vote

Oh lord.

This!

[FataliTensei]

pineappledan wrote...

I played ME1 and ME2 back-to back, and I couldn't help but notice that both times at the end of the game it comes down to a single paragon or renegade option: the paragon option being some sort of idioti choice fueled by either your bleeding heart or your distrust, and the renegade option being the strategically sound option

ME 1 option: council lives or dies?
This is like having the US president being held at gunpoint while their is an atomic bomb located in the white house.  You have the option of defusing the bomb immediately, or trying to save the president, and praying to god you also have time to defuse the bomb. 
now is it just me,or this this option retarded?  who in their right mind would risk not making the best effort possible to save the entire galaxy in favour of saving the lives of a few heads of govenment?  I mean, if your choice means that sovereign succeeds then the whole council is dead anyways, along with everyone else.

ME 2 option: blow it up, or save the base?
you're all familiar with the scenario, so would you seriously give up alien technology because you don't trust the man you're giving it to?  Technology which, for all you know, could be the difference between preservation of every race in the galaxy, or total annihilation?  are you that childish that you would damn every living being because of a grudge? 

I know that a) it's a game, these choices won't REALLy affect gameplay in ME 3, for the sake of not having to write that much.

but seriously, in ME 1 your paragon choice made you an idiot.  In ME 2 your paragon choice made you an idiot AND a ******.  in both cases the only big picture, strategically sensible solution is the renegade option. 

I know this might be a tall order, but couldn't they have made these final decisions a little harder?  maybe something that speaks to your morality and not your common sense?  I mean, that was the whole point of the paragon/renegade choice right?

thoughts?

Why does renegade = douchebag?

seriosuly the paragon options are just anyone who cares remotely about other people would react, albeit some of the responses don't make sense

[MassAffected]

This is why I play Paragade, best of both worlds and (to me) the more realistic and true to life approach.

[FredThePhoenix]

It's funny to see some people say Renegade side is stupid in this thread. Most Military Forces, Politicians and Major Leader in History were/are acting kind of in a 'Renegade' way, at least on major decisions. That's how the real world works. Not fiction and Zelda games. In Mass Effect, most smaller actions are sometimes better as a Paragon, since the Renegade options are just you being an ***.

Other Renegade decisions are Shepard acting like he doesn't like to be jerked around, which is understandable since he's a Commander and was in the Alliance Military since 18. However, the 'saving the Council' decision wasn't about exterminating the Council just for the sake of exterminating them at least in my case. You DON'T know if you can BOTH save the Destiny Ascension and take down Sovereign.

Removing the threat, which is Sovereign is top priority.

It's like when Captain Anderson said that saving survivors was a secondary objective on Eden Prime, the first being getting the Prothean Beacon. Anderson's not stupid. It's just a tactical choice and that's how it needs to be.

Modifié par FredThePhoenix, 23 mars 2010 - 11:41 .

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Sturmwulfe wrote...

I should charge her family for the thermal clip I wasted on her.

I'm sorry, but this was priceless.

Massaffected wrote...


This is why I play Paragade, best of both worlds and (to me) the more realistic and true to life approach.

I definitely agree with this. It may not be the most efficient method of gaining paragon/renegade points, but rarely does playing all paragon or renegade leave me feeling fulfilled.

[MassAffected]

FredThePhoenix wrote...

It's funny to see some people say Renegade side is stupid in this thread. Most Military Forces, Politicians and Major Leader in History were/are acting kind of in a 'Renegade' way, at least on major decisions. That's how the real world works. Not fiction and Zelda games. In Mass Effect, most smaller actions are sometimes better as a Paragon, since the Renegade options are just you being an ***.

Other Renegade decisions are Shepard acting like he doesn't like to be jerked around, which is understandable since he's a Commander and was in the Alliance Military since 18. However, the 'saving the Council' decision wasn't about exterminating the Council just for the sake of exterminating them at least in my case. You DON'T know if you can BOTH save the Destiny Ascension and take down Sovereign.

Removing the threat, which is Sovereign is top priority.

It's like when Captain Anderson said that saving survivors was a secondary objective on Eden Prime, the first being getting the Prothean Beacon. Anderson's not stupid. It's just a tactical choice and that's how it needs to be.

I always thought that with the Council it was: Paragon to save them, Neutral to focus on the Reaper, and Renegade to say "Let them die".

[MassAffected]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Sturmwulfe wrote...

I should charge her family for the thermal clip I wasted on her.

I'm sorry, but this was priceless.

Massaffected wrote...


This is why I play Paragade, best of both worlds and (to me) the more realistic and true to life approach.

I definitely agree with this. It may not be the most efficient method of gaining paragon/renegade points, but rarely does playing all paragon or renegade leave me feeling fulfilled.

Well, with me making both Paragon and Renegade choices I still ended up with a full bar for Paragon and hovering at about 3/5 Renegade. Granted I imported a save file from ME1 so I got a slight boost, but still.

[Lareit]

pineappledan wrote...

I played ME1 and ME2 back-to back, and I couldn't help but notice that both times at the end of the game it comes down to a single paragon or renegade option: the paragon option being some sort of idioti choice fueled by either your bleeding heart or your distrust, and the renegade option being the strategically sound option

ME 1 option: council lives or dies?
This is like having the US president being held at gunpoint while their is an atomic bomb located in the white house.  You have the option of defusing the bomb immediately, or trying to save the president, and praying to god you also have time to defuse the bomb. 
now is it just me,or this this option retarded?  who in their right mind would risk not making the best effort possible to save the entire galaxy in favour of saving the lives of a few heads of govenment?  I mean, if your choice means that sovereign succeeds then the whole council is dead anyways, along with everyone else.

ME 2 option: blow it up, or save the base?
you're all familiar with the scenario, so would you seriously give up alien technology because you don't trust the man you're giving it to?  Technology which, for all you know, could be the difference between preservation of every race in the galaxy, or total annihilation?  are you that childish that you would damn every living being because of a grudge? 

I know that a) it's a game, these choices won't REALLy affect gameplay in ME 3, for the sake of not having to write that much.

but seriously, in ME 1 your paragon choice made you an idiot.  In ME 2 your paragon choice made you an idiot AND a ******.  in both cases the only big picture, strategically sensible solution is the renegade option. 

I know this might be a tall order, but couldn't they have made these final decisions a little harder?  maybe something that speaks to your morality and not your common sense?  I mean, that was the whole point of the paragon/renegade choice right?

thoughts?

Maybe it's just me, but I always saved the Destiny Acension because "It's main gun could rip through the barriers of any alliance ship."

Granted, that didn't happen, but that was my original justification for saving it in my first playthrough.

After that, it all became meta game.

[Sturmwulfe]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Sturmwulfe wrote...

I should charge her family for the thermal clip I wasted on her.

I'm sorry, but this was priceless.

I propose a side-mission in ME3 where you do exactly this. Complete with jetisoning the corpse on their doorstep.

[Jonathan Shepard]

Nah, the ME1 choice actually had merit either way. You're saving the people who are keeping the galaxy together, and hell, the turians have way more ships than were used to take out the assaulting Geth ships.



But in ME2? Yeah. The paragon choice was terrible. The only reason I chose it the second time was to see the difference. What bugs me is the inability to give the base to the Council or the Alliance, even if they did totally treat me like dirt. At least I'd then prove to them I was right.

[MassAffected]

Sturmwulfe wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Sturmwulfe wrote...

I should charge her family for the thermal clip I wasted on her.

I'm sorry, but this was priceless.

I propose a side-mission in ME3 where you do exactly this. Complete with jetisoning the corpse on their doorstep.

:lol:

[Raphael diSanto]

Jonathan Shepard wrote...

Nah, the ME1 choice actually had merit either way. You're saving the people who are keeping the galaxy together, and hell, the turians have way more ships than were used to take out the assaulting Geth ships.

But in ME2? Yeah. The paragon choice was terrible. The only reason I chose it the second time was to see the difference. What bugs me is the inability to give the base to the Council or the Alliance, even if they did totally treat me like dirt. At least I'd then prove to them I was right.

The choice is okay. It's the implied justification that sucks.

None of my Shepards would ever say "I won't let fear compromise who I am."

That really brings out the crux of the Paragon/Renegade problem, and of most cRPG morality systems - A large portion of the time, the morality of a decision is based not upon the decision itself, but upon the motivations behind that decision.

An anti-authority Renegade Shepard could easily destroy the base because:

1. TIM wants it. (That's a good enough reason, right there)
2. He (or she) is arrogant and confident enough to believe that its technology is simply not needed.
3. Inhabited by collectors, but really, it was a Reaper base and blowing it up is a big bird-flipping gesture to the Reapers.

.. and there are many other reasons why that base would/could be destroyed that have nothing to do with 'fear compromising who I am'

My Paragon and Paragade Sheps destroy the base, and I mostly just wince and attempt to ignore the dialogue line.

[Jonathan Shepard]

See, the only reason I can think of destroying the base is the possibility of indoctrination effects, with it being Reaper technology. And as Shepard, I don't give a damn about fear and how it could compromise who /I/ am. That's not even what the game was about! It was about your TEAM and how what you do affects OTHER people. If Shep had said: "I won't let fear be our defense. We can beat the Reapers without this base. It's a loss more to them than to us." I would've been perfectly happy with the dialogue, but it's too idealistic compared to the potential benefits. And hey, if it has indoctrination tech? Blow it up. That's probably how ME3 will deal with it.

TIM: "Oh, yeah, thanks for keeping it, but I blew it up anyways since it brainwashed like half my best men."

Seriously. If they could just add a little DLC that would let me/us give the base to the alliance or the council...

[FlyinElk212]

Simply put, the Mass Effect trilogy has this philosophy when it comes to big decisions:

Paragon is the moral, equally-just decisions.

Renegade is the selfish, but logical decisions.

[Ahglock]

MassAffected wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Sturmwulfe wrote...

I should charge her family for the thermal clip I wasted on her.

I'm sorry, but this was priceless.

Massaffected wrote...


This is why I play Paragade, best of both worlds and (to me) the more realistic and true to life approach.

I definitely agree with this. It may not be the most efficient method of gaining paragon/renegade points, but rarely does playing all paragon or renegade leave me feeling fulfilled.

Well, with me making both Paragon and Renegade choices I still ended up with a full bar for Paragon and hovering at about 3/5 Renegade. Granted I imported a save file from ME1 so I got a slight boost, but still.

My first play through I was 2/3rds paragon 1/2 renegade.  Miranda didn't make it because of that.  A bit irritating, especially since now i know my final save i will have to max out one of the meters to keep everyone alive. 

[Jonathan Shepard]

Actually, if you just don't use Miranda, she won't die no matter what it seems...

[Zulu_DFA]

Because if you are clever, you'll end up renegade.

[Ahglock]

Jonathan Shepard wrote...

Actually, if you just don't use Miranda, she won't die no matter what it seems...

Cool.  The first time through i had thought if i kept her with me she would survive, since I obviously was going to win.  But then some furniture landed on her and she died.  I had assumed if she was random goon #5 in the defensive squad and not loyal she would be dead.

[Stengahpolis]

pineappledan wrote...

ME 2 option: blow it up, or save the base?
you're all familiar with the scenario, so would you seriously give up alien technology because you don't trust the man you're giving it to?  Technology which, for all you know, could be the difference between preservation of every race in the galaxy, or total annihilation?  are you that childish that you would damn every living being because of a grudge? 


thoughts?

Going back to your nuke-in-the-white-house analogy, by saving the base you're giving the nuke to the guy who put it there.

LPPrince wrote...

ME1=Killing the Council/Letting them die means the galaxy will not trust you and proper leadership is out the window, which means battling a bunch of Reapers on the way is impossible.

Saving the council means you risk not being able to take down Sovereign, which means everyone dies and it doesn't matter if the council is around or not.

And I agree completely with everything Raphael diSanto said.

Modifié par Stengahpolis, 24 mars 2010 - 02:50 .

[Raphael diSanto]

Ahglock wrote...

MassAffected wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Sturmwulfe wrote...

I should charge her family for the thermal clip I wasted on her.

I'm sorry, but this was priceless.

Massaffected wrote...


This is why I play Paragade, best of both worlds and (to me) the more realistic and true to life approach.

I definitely agree with this. It may not be the most efficient method of gaining paragon/renegade points, but rarely does playing all paragon or renegade leave me feeling fulfilled.

Well, with me making both Paragon and Renegade choices I still ended up with a full bar for Paragon and hovering at about 3/5 Renegade. Granted I imported a save file from ME1 so I got a slight boost, but still.

My first play through I was 2/3rds paragon 1/2 renegade.  Miranda didn't make it because of that.  A bit irritating, especially since now i know my final save i will have to max out one of the meters to keep everyone alive. 

Naw. You don't need everyone loyal for everyone to live.

You need:

A loyal tech person (Tali/Legion)

A loyal Fire Team leader (Miranda/Garrus/Jacob)

A loyal pure Biotic (Samara/Morinth/Jack)

A loyal escort (Tali/Mordin/Jack/Thane)

.. I mean, it doesn't hurt to have everyone loyal. But even if you fail the loyalty checks in the Tali/Legion and Miri/Jack confrontations, you can still keep everyone alive.